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Palma
07-22-2007, 08:57 AM
This is based off who I think utilizes wrestling in MMA the best, not just who is the best wrestler:

1. Matt Lindland
2. Josh Koscheck
3. Randy Couture
4. Dan Henderson
5. Kevin Randleman
6. Tito Ortiz
7. Uriah Faber
8. Chuck Liddell
9. Mark Coleman
10. Sean Salmon

Noob
07-22-2007, 07:54 PM
This is based off who I think utilizes wrestling in MMA the best, not just who is the best wrestler:

1. Matt Lindland
2. Josh Koscheck
3. Randy Couture
4. Dan Henderson
5. Kevin Randleman
6. Tito Ortiz
7. Uriah Faber
8. Chuck Liddell
9. Mark Coleman
10. Sean Salmon

I don't know enough about wrestling to critique the list too much, but I would have Jon Fitch in there. He hasn't used his wrestling as much in his last few fights, but it has been a staple of his game for most of his career.

The Natural994
07-22-2007, 10:09 PM
This is based off who I think utilizes wrestling in MMA the best, not just who is the best wrestler:

1. Matt Lindland
2. Josh Koscheck
3. Randy Couture
4. Dan Henderson
5. Kevin Randleman
6. Tito Ortiz
7. Uriah Faber
8. Chuck Liddell
9. Mark Coleman
10. Sean Salmon


1. Couture
2. Kos
3. Hendo
4. Lindland
5 Ortiz
6. Lidell
7. Hughes
8. Randelman
9. Sherk
10. Coleman


Salmon Palma? C'mon I hope you were just drawing a blank. I mean even Rashad utilized better wrestling in their fight to stop him from taking over...and then.... oh yea he K'd him TFO.

Spain215
07-22-2007, 10:25 PM
Couture - can pretty much takedown anyone
Hendo - great wrestler
Kos - can pretty much takedown anyone
Hughes - pretty decent at taking down people
Lindland - he wrestled for nebraska baby, NEBRASKAS IN THE HOUSE
Sherk - only takes people down, pretty much all hes got
Ortiz - only in front of liddell because he does take people down
Liddell - most people cant take him down
Randelman - is insane
Coleman - is insane

Noob
07-22-2007, 11:34 PM
Coleman and Sherk are two deserving additions that I didn't think of. Maybe Monson, though I don't think top 10 worthy.

Palma
07-22-2007, 11:35 PM
1. Couture
2. Kos
3. Hendo
4. Lindland
5 Ortiz
6. Lidell
7. Hughes
8. Randelman
9. Sherk
10. Coleman


Salmon Palma? C'mon I hope you were just drawing a blank. I mean even Rashad utilized better wrestling in their fight to stop him from taking over...and then.... oh yea he K'd him TFO.

Salmon is training for the Olympics and schooled Rashad in wrestling when they fought. He is a world class wrestler. If he shouldn't be in the list it's only because he is more of a wrestler then an actual MMA fighter.


I don't know enough about wrestling to critique the list too much, but I would have Jon Fitch in there. He hasn't used his wrestling as much in his last few fights, but it has been a staple of his game for most of his career.

Fitch is a great wrestler and went further then Tito did in wrestling (in a sense) but I just don't think he is in the top 10 yet in regards to wrestling in MMA.


Coleman and Sherk are two deserving additions that I didn't think of. Maybe Monson, though I don't think top 10 worthy.

Coleman is on the list and Sherk and Monson are submission wrestlers (there is a difference).

The Natural994
07-23-2007, 01:37 AM
Salmon is training for the Olympics and schooled Rashad in wrestling when they fought. He is a world class wrestler. If he shouldn't be in the list it's only because he is more of a wrestler then an actual MMA fighter.



Well that completely contradicts what this entire list is about then... right?

Isn't this list NOT about who the most decorated wrestler is but rather who uses wrestling the best in MMA?

Salmons wrestling doesn't help his MMA worth a damn. Unless you consider taking Rashad down once..getting back to his feet.... then forever securing a spot in the next Ultimate Knockout DVDs.

Furthermore, Salmon is NOT world class. He made the trials team. Not World Class yet.

Palma
07-23-2007, 04:08 AM
Well that completely contradicts what this entire list is about then... right?

Isn't this list NOT about who the most decorated wrestler is but rather who uses wrestling the best in MMA?

Salmons wrestling doesn't help his MMA worth a damn. Unless you consider taking Rashad down once..getting back to his feet.... then forever securing a spot in the next Ultimate Knockout DVDs.

Furthermore, Salmon is NOT world class. He made the trials team. Not World Class yet.

He did use his wrestling and used it quite well. Is wrestling only about taking people down? You are really trivializing his abilities and disrespecting wrestling a sport if you are saying his abilities don't mean a damn because he got knocked out.

Since you want to drop some knowledge, let's see your top ten list...

neonatural45
07-23-2007, 05:53 AM
Lindland
Koscheck
Coleman
couture
Liddell
Randleman
Hughes
Nagata
Ortiz
Sherk

SimpleJack
07-23-2007, 02:12 PM
Kid Yamamoto??
Fujita
Kerr
Severn
Henderson
Lindland
Nagata
Trigg
Coleman
Couture

Caw
07-23-2007, 02:47 PM
Not in order

Coleman
Couture
Severn
Henderson
Lindland
Liddell
Hughes
Randelman
Tyson Griffin
Van Arsdale


I'm English so naturally i know very little about wrestling, but those are the ones that came to mind.

The Natural994
07-23-2007, 04:57 PM
He did use his wrestling and used it quite well. Is wrestling only about taking people down? You are really trivializing his abilities and disrespecting wrestling a sport if you are saying his abilities don't mean a damn because he got knocked out.

Since you want to drop some knowledge, let's see your top ten list...


I already posted a top 10 list


But as for Salmon, c'mon Palma...bite the bullet already. Trigg, Hughes, Rashad, Sherk, etc....

They all use and have been using over very long careers wrestling better than Salmon does in MMA...Which is what this "list" is about ...right????? I'm not saying Salmon isn't a talented, somewhat decorated wreslter... I am saying he isn't on this list because even with his wrestling abilities he is no threat in MMA right now.

Palma
07-23-2007, 06:39 PM
I already posted a top 10 list


But as for Salmon, c'mon Palma...bite the bullet already. Trigg, Hughes, Rashad, Sherk, etc....

They all use and have been using over very long careers wrestling better than Salmon does in MMA...Which is what this "list" is about ...right????? I'm not saying Salmon isn't a talented, somewhat decorated wreslter... I am saying he isn't on this list because even with his wrestling abilities he is no threat in MMA right now.

I never said this is a list based off long careers sustained by using wrestling. I said the best wrestlers that actually utilize wrestlering. Salmon has 12 MMA fights and certainly uses wrestling as his main combat sport. Trigg, Rashad, and Sherk are not better then Salmon. Hughes I forgot about and should be on the list.

The Natural994
07-23-2007, 11:29 PM
I never said this is a list based off long careers sustained by using wrestling. I said the best wrestlers that actually utilize wrestlering. Salmon has 12 MMA fights and certainly uses wrestling as his main combat sport. Trigg, Rashad, and Sherk are not better then Salmon. Hughes I forgot about and should be on the list.

What has he done to actually successfully utilize his wrestling???

To me, you have to be successful in actually utilizing your wrestling (Which means having it translate to wins) to be on that list.... Salmons wins over jobbers that no ones ever seen at ma and pop organizations dont mean squat when Alan Belcher stops his double leg takedown with a guillotine choke in 51 seconds.

Sherk, Trigg, Rashad, Edgar,etc... ALL belong on the list before he does. Hell, even Matt Hamill does.

Palma
07-24-2007, 04:44 AM
What has he done to actually successfully utilize his wrestling???

To me, you have to be successful in actually utilizing your wrestling (Which means having it translate to wins) to be on that list.... Salmons wins over jobbers that no ones ever seen at ma and pop organizations dont mean squat when Alan Belcher stops his double leg takedown with a guillotine choke in 51 seconds.

Sherk, Trigg, Rashad, Edgar,etc... ALL belong on the list before he does. Hell, even Matt Hamill does.

So Matt Hamill should be above Salmon because Hamill has only three wins and Salmon has 10? That makes no sense.

This is a list of top wrestlers not top MMA fighters. You can be a great wrestler and still lose in MMA by a fighting style that has nothing to do with wrestling. Rashad and Belcher beat Salmon by means other then wrestling so how does that make Salmon a bad wrestler?

By your logic then why should Randy be up there with his 15 and 8 record? So Salmon lost two out of his last three fights...that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best wrestlers in MMA and it sure as hell doesn't mean he doesn't rely on wrestling more then any other combat sport.

In fact with the exception of Koscheck, Salmon has a better record then most the other fighters on that list. How does 10 and 3 in MMA translate into bad wrestling?

The very fact that he owned Rashad in the wrestling aspect of their fight should put him up there with top wrestlers in MMA, especially considering how good of a wrestler Rashad is?

Fedor beat Coleman twice...does that mean he is a better wrestler then Coleman?

Josh Koscheck lost to Fickett...does that mean Fickett should be on the list too?

I think are failing to grasp the concept of the list. This a list on the top ten wrestlers who use wrestling in MMA, not the top ten most winningest wrestlers. I never said anything about winning. Obviouslly a fighter who can't get a winning record shouldn't be up there, but Salmon is not only one of the best wrestlers in MMA he is one of the best wrestlers in the country and he has a 10 and 3 record.

The Natural994
07-24-2007, 05:35 AM
So Matt Hamill should be above Salmon because Hamill has only three wins and Salmon has 10? That makes no sense.

This is a list of top wrestlers not top MMA fighters. You can be a great wrestler and still lose in MMA by a fighting style that has nothing to do with wrestling. Rashad and Belcher beat Salmon by means other then wrestling so how does that make Salmon a bad wrestler?

By your logic then why should Randy be up there with his 15 and 8 record? So Salmon lost two out of his last three fights...that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best wrestlers in MMA and it sure as hell doesn't mean he doesn't rely on wrestling more then any other combat sport.

In fact with the exception of Koscheck, Salmon has a better record then most the other fighters on that list. How does 10 and 3 in MMA translate into bad wrestling?

The very fact that he owned Rashad in the wrestling aspect of their fight should put him up there with top wrestlers in MMA, especially considering how good of a wrestler Rashad is?

Fedor beat Coleman twice...does that mean he is a better wrestler then Coleman?

Josh Koscheck lost to Fickett...does that mean Fickett should be on the list too?

I think are failing to grasp the concept of the list. This a list on the top ten wrestlers who use wrestling in MMA, not the top ten most winningest wrestlers. I never said anything about winning. Obviouslly a fighter who can't get a winning record shouldn't be up there, but Salmon is not only one of the best wrestlers in MMA he is one of the best wrestlers in the country and he has a 10 and 3 record.


The bottom line here is not with me, its with you. Your having trouble accepting there is guys that belong on this list over Salmon.

How can you have a list thats not results oriented? Big deal the guy utilizes wrestling.... to a degree theres almost wrestling in every fight...The difference is with Salmon he obviously isn't that good at UTILIZING IT IN MMA.... WHICH IS WHAT THIS LIST WAS ORIGINALLY ABOUT! I know he's a good wrestler...But in MMA, well he hasn't exactly knocked anyones socks off with his wrestling.

Now..The reason Hamill should be up there using your logic is because literally all he can do is wrestle.... and he actually wins in the UFC....Against Salmons training partner in his last fight none the less.... Not to metnion leave Salmons record out of this...I doubt you've ever heard of or seen any of the jobbers Salmon has actually beaten to pad up that record.... All we've seen is him get kicked in the head and choked out....Yea I guess he had real nice technique you observed though.....:bsflag: Better than Hughes though??? I think not....


I think your failing to grasp the concept here and can't accept you made a mistake putting Sean Salmon who when this list started was AND I QUOTE "world class" according to you ...but now I see you've changed your tone to he's only one of the best wrestlers in the country...according to you...

You said in the beginning ...this list was who utilizes wrestling the best in MMA....Well no one sits and solely judges technique regardless of the outcome. The best wrestlers impose their will take them down and win the fights or atleast make them interesting. Salmon Sucks...Face it.....Just because you made a mistake and put Sean Salmon on the list over guys who deserve it more like Matt Hughes for sure ... It has nothing to do with who beat who. It's on an individual basis.

Palma
07-24-2007, 06:00 AM
The bottom line here is not with me, its with you. Your having trouble accepting there is guys that belong on this list over Salmon.

How can you have a list thats not results oriented? Big deal the guy utilizes wrestling.... to a degree theres almost wrestling in every fight...The difference is with Salmon he obviously isn't that good at UTILIZING IT IN MMA.... WHICH IS WHAT THIS LIST WAS ORIGINALLY ABOUT! I know he's a good wrestler...But in MMA, well he hasn't exactly knocked anyones socks off with his wrestling.

Now..The reason Hamill should be up there using your logic is because literally all he can do is wrestle.... and he actually wins in the UFC....Against Salmons training partner in his last fight none the less.... Not to metnion leave Salmons record out of this...I doubt you've ever heard of or seen any of the jobbers Salmon has actually beaten to pad up that record.... All we've seen is him get kicked in the head and choked out....Yea I guess he had real nice technique you observed though.....:bsflag: Better than Hughes though??? I think not....


I think your failing to grasp the concept here and can't accept you made a mistake putting Sean Salmon who when this list started was AND I QUOTE "world class" according to you ...but now I see you've changed your tone to he's only one of the best wrestlers in the country...according to you...

You said in the beginning ...this list was who utilizes wrestling the best in MMA....Well no one sits and solely judges technique regardless of the outcome. The best wrestlers impose their will take them down and win the fights or atleast make them interesting. Salmon Sucks...Face it.....Just because you made a mistake and put Sean Salmon on the list over guys who deserve it more like Matt Hughes for sure ... It has nothing to do with who beat who. It's on an individual basis.

You are seriously comparing the cans they fed Hamill to Rashad Evans? I think Rashad was lucky to win that fight. Salmon was taking him down, standing he was getting inside and outstriking him. Rashad tatood him in the face and won with one offensive move for an entire night. It wasn't a lucky kick but he was lucky to win because up until that moment Salmon gave him no openings for anything.

And wouldn't the best in the country consititue being called "World Class" You do realize the US Olympic team wretles in the World and Olympic leauge don't you? I think being right there on the starting team or the practice team is good enought to be world class. If Salmon wrestled for the Canadian Olympic team he would be on the starting team.

The Natural994
07-24-2007, 06:37 AM
You are seriously comparing the cans they fed Hamill to Rashad Evans? I think Rashad was lucky to win that fight. Salmon was taking him down, standing he was getting inside and outstriking him. Rashad tatood him in the face and won with one offensive move for an entire night. It wasn't a lucky kick but he was lucky to win because up until that moment Salmon gave him no openings for anything.

And wouldn't the best in the country consititue being called "World Class" You do realize the US Olympic team wretles in the World and Olympic leauge don't you? I think being right there on the starting team or the practice team is good enought to be world class. If Salmon wrestled for the Canadian Olympic team he would be on the starting team.

Heath Herring could probably start for the Canadian Olympic team:ahh:

Palma
07-24-2007, 08:26 AM
Heath Herring could probably start for the Canadian Olympic team:ahh:

Wasn't Tim Silvia their HW?

Noob
07-24-2007, 09:01 PM
My vote is for Wayne Weems. Fucking beast.

SimpleJack
07-27-2007, 06:39 AM
He's no Andy Wang, but he is a monster.

matto
07-27-2007, 07:56 AM
dennis hallman and of course all the others u guys mentioned.
but im sure that there are a lot of great wrestlers in mma that we dont know about yeat or are not that well known.

3Aleksandar3
07-30-2007, 11:27 PM
I'm amazed that Ricardo Arona is on no ones list. I think that sometimes Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu players don't get acknowledged for their wrestling ability, namely Arona and Filho come to mind. Arona has phenomenal strength, takedowns, and especially positional control. Anyone who doubts his wrestling ability should view his ADCC matches against Tito Ortiz (on alot of peoples lists) and Jeff Monson.

Palma
07-30-2007, 11:48 PM
I'm amazed that Ricardo Arona is on no ones list. I think that sometimes Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu players don't get acknowledged for their wrestling ability, namely Arona and Filho come to mind. Arona has phenomenal strength, takedowns, and especially positional control. Anyone who doubts his wrestling ability should view his ADCC matches against Tito Ortiz (on alot of peoples lists) and Jeff Monson.

This was a list more for traditional wrestlers (Greco, Folkstyle, and Freestyle) and not nesessarily submission wrestlers. I think Aron is highly skilled, but in terms of traditional wrestling I don't think he is on the top 10 list, but that's only my opinion.

Ramma
07-31-2007, 12:12 AM
This is based off who I think utilizes wrestling in MMA the best, not just who is the best wrestler:

1. Matt Lindland
2. Josh Koscheck
3. Randy Couture
4. Dan Henderson
5. Kevin Randleman
6. Tito Ortiz
7. Uriah Faber
8. Chuck Liddell
9. Mark Coleman
10. Sean Salmon
Just curious Palma, because you are one of the more knowledged wrestling people to my knowledge (lol), where do you think Hallman, Sherk, Arona, and Hughes fall? Top 15? Top 20?

Palma
07-31-2007, 12:31 AM
Just curious Palma, because you are one of the more knowledged wrestling people to my knowledge (lol), where do you think Hallman, Sherk, Arona, and Hughes fall? Top 15? Top 20?

I fucked up when I made list and forgot about Hughes. He should be 9 or 10 bumping Salmon off the list (I hope you're happy Natural!).

Sherk and Arona are both submission wrestlers (which I think is different). I love Nogi JJ, which is basically submission wrestling, but when it comes to takedowns, defending takedowns, top control, etc. (aspects of traditional wrestling that are used in MMA) I think they are both elite, just not in the top ten.

Hallman would be around where Pulver would be ranked. They were both High School State Champs at the same time at the same highschool.

I think there are dozens upon dozens of elite wrestlers that now fight MMA. I went with what I though is top 10 in sense that opponents (even with great wrestling) can't out wrestle these guys in an MMA fight.

Frasedog
07-31-2007, 10:49 PM
I'm no expert, but wasn't Brock Lesnar a really good NCAA wrestler?

Palma
07-31-2007, 10:54 PM
I'm no expert, but wasn't Brock Lesnar a really good NCAA wrestler?

Yeah, but I don't know if one MMA fight means he is an MMA fighter yet. Rulon Gardner and Krelin both had one or two MMA fights but I didn't put them on there because they aren't really MMA fighters.

mma guru
10-07-2007, 08:57 PM
Randleman is the best pure wrestler but in terms of excuting it in mma i would say Randy or Hendo are the best in that sense.

Palma
10-07-2007, 09:00 PM
Randleman is the best pure wrestler but in terms of excuting it in mma i would say Randy or Hendo are the best in that sense.

Randleman was a great college wrestler, but compared to Randy and Hendo's USA olympic and national team careers I would say he falls short there as well as MMA.

Spain215
10-07-2007, 11:13 PM
i no this is way late but if i were to redo my top 10 list id take kos off of it because he got completely out wrestled by gsp when they fought. gsp took him down 3 times and josh had none from what i remember. as a wrestler, that would have been very embarassing.

Palma
10-11-2007, 02:44 AM
i no this is way late but if i were to redo my top 10 list id take kos off of it because he got completely out wrestled by gsp when they fought. gsp took him down 3 times and josh had none from what i remember. as a wrestler, that would have been very embarassing.

GSP didn't use wrestling takedowns to get Josh down, so I don't really agree. The first was setup by a leg kick by Koscheck and the second was Koscheck jumping gaurd with a Guillatine.

Koscheck had one nice reversal (which actually displayed great wrestling).

I think the only part where GSP actually outwrestled Koscheck is when he kept himself from going down off that crotch lift Koscheck was attempting in the third.

Besides, it seems cheap to me to say someone isn't a greta wrestler based off one fight where the wrestler was the one who was actually trying to stand and strike.

Afro
10-11-2007, 02:46 AM
i no this is way late but if i were to redo my top 10 list id take kos off of it because he got completely out wrestled by gsp when they fought. gsp took him down 3 times and josh had none from what i remember. as a wrestler, that would have been very embarassing.
None to 3? thats way off bro, GSP had 2 and Kos had 1 but Palma is right, it had nothing to do with wrestling.. one of the times GSP got on top of Kos was because Kos pulled guard, one of the stuffed takedowns was again because Kos pulled guard, GSP was getting Kos down, and beating Kos because of his strength and size and because hes a better MMA fighter then Kos, not a better wrestler.. hes more seasoned, hes smarter, he knows what hes doing.. Kos is still learning. I didnt see a domination in terms of pure wrestling in that fight, and im no wrestler.. but Palma is and he says it wasnt, I got a co-worker whos in wrestling and he says the same.. it seems everyone that has wrestled believes this to be true, so im gonna go with there opinion cuz they actually experienced wrestling.

pa99fighter
10-16-2007, 05:53 AM
props to palma for sticking up for his boy against the whole board lol

SumsNews
10-17-2007, 04:22 AM
Ya, GSP kept him on his back. He's becoming better every time he competes, besides that whole Matt Serra bit.. But Josh showed some crazy brute strength when GSP was sitting on him and trying to rip his arm off for a kimura?