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Palma
07-22-2007, 09:17 AM
1. Aleksandr Karelin (three golds and one silver medal in the Olympicsfor Greco)
2. Makharbek Khadartsev (two golds and one silver medal in the olympicls for freestyle)
3. Sergey Beloglazov (two time gold Medalist and 6 time world champ for Freestyle)
4. John Smith ( two time gold medalist and four time world champ for Freestyle)
5. Vincenzo Maenza (two time Gold and one time silver medalist for Greco)
6. Bruce Baumgartner (Two time Gold, one Silver, and One Bronze in Freestyle
7. Ivan Yargin (Two Golds in Freestyle)
8. Buvaysa Saytiev (two golds in Freestyle)
9. Arsen Fadzayev (Two Golds in Freestyle)
10. Jon Rønningen (Two Golds in Greco)

Noob
07-22-2007, 07:55 PM
I thought we decided Cael Sanderson was the best ever? I'm so lost.

Or was that only collegiate?

TriangleChoke
07-22-2007, 07:55 PM
tried to pm u, but you got to clear some space...

Maybe you can fill me in...Collegiate Amateur style wrestling vs. Greco-Roman Wrestling...what's the difference? Doesn't Greco-Roman focus a lot on clinch work? If you dont mind, give me a somewhat detailed description of the difference between the two, and which of the two would you say is more effective in terms of mma? (i'm a sorry P.O.S. who doesn't feel like using wikipedia.)

Punk Ass
07-22-2007, 07:57 PM
Hulk Hogan :lmfao:


I'm sorry, I just saw an opening.

Palma
07-22-2007, 11:19 PM
I thought we decided Cael Sanderson was the best ever? I'm so lost.

Or was that only collegiate?

I never said he was the best of all time. He could have been if he kept competeing. Cael is the best Div I wrestler of all time, but that isn't a good reason to put him above wrestlers that have won multiple medals (especially considering most countries don't have college wrestling).


tried to pm u, but you got to clear some space...

Maybe you can fill me in...Collegiate Amateur style wrestling vs. Greco-Roman Wrestling...what's the difference? Doesn't Greco-Roman focus a lot on clinch work? If you dont mind, give me a somewhat detailed description of the difference between the two, and which of the two would you say is more effective in terms of mma? (i'm a sorry P.O.S. who doesn't feel like using wikipedia.)

wikipedia is right about half the time anyways. Anyone who uses it as fact doesn't realize they are going off someone else's subjective knowledge.

Amateur wrestling is any for of wrestling that isn't Pro-wrestling, inculding: Freestyle, folkstyle, Greco Roman, Sambo, submission wrestling, Judo, etc...

Collegiate (or folkstyle) is ver similar to Freestyle, but the scoring system is different (the biggest is you get a 1 point escape and a 2 point takedown). The scoring in Collegiate is also cumulitave scoring as opposed to Freestyle and Greco where you win rounds based off points for that individual round. Rounds 2 and 3 are also able to start in a top bottom position based off a wrestlers choice, which is won by a coin flip. You also can't slam your opponents (in Freestyle and Greco you can get major points from slams).

Greco Roman is exactly like freestyle except you cannot use your legs or your oppont's legs for any wrestling moves.

Freestyle is the purist for of wrestling (imo). You can do anything allowed in Greco or Collegiate.

And I have had discusions on what works better for MMA. On one hand Collegiate and Freestyle focus on takedowns more then throw and slams (on the higher levels of competition). So we all know the value of taking an opponent down or stuffing a takedown in MMA.

On the other hand Greco works great for throws and slams, defending throws and slams, as well as controlling your opponent in the clinch. And in wrestling the clinch is called "tieing up".

I'd say they are both very usefull in MMA.

Noob
07-22-2007, 11:36 PM
Good summary. Answered a few questions I'd had about wrestling.

The Natural994
07-23-2007, 01:55 AM
1. Aleksandr Karelin (three golds and one silver medal in the Olympicsfor Greco)
2. Makharbek Khadartsev (two golds and one silver medal in the olympicls for freestyle)
3. Sergey Beloglazov (two time gold Medalist and 6 time world champ for Freestyle)
4. John Smith ( two time gold medalist and four time world champ for Freestyle)
5. Vincenzo Maenza (two time Gold and one time silver medalist for Greco)
6. Ivan Yargin (Two Golds in Freestyle)
7. Buvaysa Saytiev (two golds in Freestyle)
8. Arsen Fadzayev (Two Golds in Freestyle)
9. Jon Rønningen (Two Golds in Greco)
10. Hamza Yerlikaya (Two Golds in Greco)

You forgot someone rather important...Oh yea could probably be like # 1


And he is actually from the good ole' USA

Bruce Baumgartner:

1980

*NCAA Division I runner-up, heavyweight, as a sophomore (Corvallis, OR)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*Olympic Team Alternate

*National Freestyle Champion


1981

*NCAA Division I runner-up, heavyweight, as a junior (Princeton, NJ)

*World University Champion (Romania)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1982

*NCAA Division I national champion, heavyweight, as a senior (Ames, IA)

*Concluded collegiate career with a 134-12 record, 73 pins.

*World team member for first time, 1982

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1983

*World Championships, bronze (Kiev, USSR)

*World Cup Championships, silver (Toledo, OH)

*Tiblisi Tournament, silver (USSR)

*Pan-American Games, silver (Venezuela)

*Sports Festival Champion (Colorado Springs, CO)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1984

*Olympic Gold Medalist (Los Angeles)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*Tiblisi Tournament, gold, undefeated (USSR)

*AAU National Champion

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1985

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*World Super Championships, gold (Tokyo, Japan)

*World Championships, bronze (Budapest, Hungary)

*Tiblisi Tournament, silver (USSR)

*Sports Festival Champion (Baton Rouge, LA)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1986

*World Champion (Budapest, Hungary)

*Goodwill Games, gold (Moscow, USSR)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*Sports Festival Champion (Chapel Hill, NC)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1987

*World Championships, bronze (Claremont-Ferrand, France)

*Pan-American Games, gold (Indianapolis, IN)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1988

*Olympic Silver Medalist (Seoul, South Korea)

*World Cup Champion, silver (Toledo, OH)

*Pan-American Champion, (Colorado Springs, CO)

*National Freestyle Champion


1989

*World Cup Championships, gold (Toledo, OH)

*Pan-American Champion (Colorado Springs, CO)

*World Championships, silver (Switzerland)

*World Wrestling Grand Championships Champion (Pittsburgh, PA)

*National Freestyle Champion


1990

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Goodwill Games, silver (Seattle, WA)

*World Championship, silver (Tokyo, Japan)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Grand Masters Champion (Pittsburgh, PA)


1991

*Pan-American Games, gold (Cuba)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion


1992

*Olympic Gold Medalist (Barcelona, Spain)

*Undefeated, outscored opponents 35-1

*First United States wrestler to win three Olympic medals

*US Grand Prix Champion (Columbus, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion


1993

*World Champion (Toronto, Canada)

*US Grand Prix Champion (Jersey City, NJ)

*National Freestyle Champion

*World Cup, silver (Chattanooga, TN)


1994

*World Cup Champion (Edmonton, Canada)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Goodwill Games, bronze (St. Petersburg, Russia)

*World Championships, silver (Istanbul, Turkey)


1995

*World Champion (Atlanta, GA)

*Pan-American Games, Gold (Argentina)

*World Cup, Silver (Chattanooga, TN)

*National Freestyle Champion

*James E. Sullivan Award Winner


1996

*Olympic Bronze Medalist (Atlanta, GA)

*U.S. Olympic Flag bearer

*National Freestyle Champion



In a nutshell, four-time Olympian and owns four Olympic Medals: two gold, one silver and one bronze.

Palma
07-23-2007, 04:01 AM
You forgot someone rather important...Oh yea could probably be like # 1


And he is actually from the good ole' USA

Bruce Baumgartner:

1980

*NCAA Division I runner-up, heavyweight, as a sophomore (Corvallis, OR)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*Olympic Team Alternate

*National Freestyle Champion


1981

*NCAA Division I runner-up, heavyweight, as a junior (Princeton, NJ)

*World University Champion (Romania)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1982

*NCAA Division I national champion, heavyweight, as a senior (Ames, IA)

*Concluded collegiate career with a 134-12 record, 73 pins.

*World team member for first time, 1982

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1983

*World Championships, bronze (Kiev, USSR)

*World Cup Championships, silver (Toledo, OH)

*Tiblisi Tournament, silver (USSR)

*Pan-American Games, silver (Venezuela)

*Sports Festival Champion (Colorado Springs, CO)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1984

*Olympic Gold Medalist (Los Angeles)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*Tiblisi Tournament, gold, undefeated (USSR)

*AAU National Champion

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1985

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*World Super Championships, gold (Tokyo, Japan)

*World Championships, bronze (Budapest, Hungary)

*Tiblisi Tournament, silver (USSR)

*Sports Festival Champion (Baton Rouge, LA)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1986

*World Champion (Budapest, Hungary)

*Goodwill Games, gold (Moscow, USSR)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*Sports Festival Champion (Chapel Hill, NC)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1987

*World Championships, bronze (Claremont-Ferrand, France)

*Pan-American Games, gold (Indianapolis, IN)

*Midlands Tournament Champion (Chicago, IL)

*National Freestyle Champion


1988

*Olympic Silver Medalist (Seoul, South Korea)

*World Cup Champion, silver (Toledo, OH)

*Pan-American Champion, (Colorado Springs, CO)

*National Freestyle Champion


1989

*World Cup Championships, gold (Toledo, OH)

*Pan-American Champion (Colorado Springs, CO)

*World Championships, silver (Switzerland)

*World Wrestling Grand Championships Champion (Pittsburgh, PA)

*National Freestyle Champion


1990

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Goodwill Games, silver (Seattle, WA)

*World Championship, silver (Tokyo, Japan)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Grand Masters Champion (Pittsburgh, PA)


1991

*Pan-American Games, gold (Cuba)

*World Cup Champion (Toledo, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion


1992

*Olympic Gold Medalist (Barcelona, Spain)

*Undefeated, outscored opponents 35-1

*First United States wrestler to win three Olympic medals

*US Grand Prix Champion (Columbus, OH)

*National Freestyle Champion


1993

*World Champion (Toronto, Canada)

*US Grand Prix Champion (Jersey City, NJ)

*National Freestyle Champion

*World Cup, silver (Chattanooga, TN)


1994

*World Cup Champion (Edmonton, Canada)

*National Freestyle Champion

*Goodwill Games, bronze (St. Petersburg, Russia)

*World Championships, silver (Istanbul, Turkey)


1995

*World Champion (Atlanta, GA)

*Pan-American Games, Gold (Argentina)

*World Cup, Silver (Chattanooga, TN)

*National Freestyle Champion

*James E. Sullivan Award Winner


1996

*Olympic Bronze Medalist (Atlanta, GA)

*U.S. Olympic Flag bearer

*National Freestyle Champion



In a nutshell, four-time Olympian and owns four Olympic Medals: two gold, one silver and one bronze.

I did forget Bruce and I edited the list, although I wouldn't put him over Karelin. I doubt we will see a three time Olympic Gold Medalist in our life time. Besides when it comes to p4p rankings I have to drop the super HWs down about becuase there is much less skill involved and it is more about body type and size. That's why I think Brock Lesnar is over rated when it comes to skill. But there is nothing stopping you making your own top ten list.

nhenry87
07-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Nice top ten. Aleks Karelin is my favorite wrestler of all time.

methodjg
07-27-2007, 11:15 PM
too many

Palma
07-28-2007, 01:30 AM
too many

Too many what?

Pythonfighter14
08-17-2007, 01:54 AM
Good list.

And yeah there is pretty much no way at all that any one will be better than karelin in our lfetimes.

Whats funny about him i think is that wasn't he into ballet or some shit like that before he did wrestling?:keyaaa:

Severn
08-20-2007, 06:03 PM
Hulk Hogan :lmfao:


I'm sorry, I just saw an opening.

Pfff... Flair all the way.

http://centurysendsavior.com/HBKBROTHER.jpg

KnowledgeKnown
08-23-2007, 04:00 AM
I believe Cael is the best wrestler of all time. He was 159-0 4x NCAA champ then went to the Olympics and won the Gold medal. The fact that he decided to coach after that doesn't take away from this guys insane skill level. He was dominant. !59-0 doesn't even explain it. I've seen the guy wrestle up close. Guys who lost 8-0 acted like they won because they didn't get destroyed. Although anyone who's wrestled in college knows 8-0 at that level is a beating. I understand many would say it's college, and we should look at international competition, well the first time he decided to compete, he again dominated. What else can he do, win multiple Gold? Why? Some of these guys keep wrestling until a younger lion eventually beats them and then they retire. Cael Sanderson went out looking unbeatable on every level. IMO The absolute best.

Palma
08-23-2007, 05:04 AM
I believe Cael is the best wrestler of all time. He was 159-0 4x NCAA champ then went to the Olympics and won the Gold medal. The fact that he decided to coach after that doesn't take away from this guys insane skill level. He was dominant. !59-0 doesn't even explain it. I've seen the guy wrestle up close. Guys who lost 8-0 acted like they won because they didn't get destroyed. Although anyone who's wrestled in college knows 8-0 at that level is a beating. I understand many would say it's college, and we should look at international competition, well the first time he decided to compete, he again dominated. What else can he do, win multiple Gold? Why? Some of these guys keep wrestling until a younger lion eventually beats them and then they retire. Cael Sanderson went out looking unbeatable on every level. IMO The absolute best.

I'd love to call Bo Jackson the best Running back of all time, but what can I do? You can't ignore other's greater accomplishments because Cael "could have" been better. Dan Gable had as close of a career to Cael's as anyone can possibbly have and he isn't one of the top ten.

It's not fair to wrestlers from other countries that don't have a college program to compare to, besides college is college and the Olympics are something entirely different. DO you have any idea what kind of feat winning the Olympics multiple times is? It's much more impressive then winning NCAA's 4X.

Besides if Cael didn't lose in the finals in the 2003 world meet I would say he would have a more ligitmate spot in USA wrestling History.

KnowledgeKnown
08-24-2007, 02:58 AM
I'd love to call Bo Jackson the best Running back of all time, but what can I do? You can't ignore other's greater accomplishments because Cael "could have" been better. Dan Gable had as close of a career to Cael's as anyone can possibbly have and he isn't one of the top ten.

It's not fair to wrestlers from other countries that don't have a college program to compare to, besides college is college and the Olympics are something entirely different. DO you have any idea what kind of feat winning the Olympics multiple times is? It's much more impressive then winning NCAA's 4X.

Besides if Cael didn't lose in the finals in the 2003 world meet I would say he would have a more ligitmate spot in USA wrestling History.

Actually I do have an idea. I wrestled freestyle in many national qualifying events, so I have a pretty good idea. And I didn't say Cael "could have been" i'm saying he's the best based on skill. I'm not basing this soley on accomplishments, i'm basing it on being up close and personal with these guys. My close friend was an alternate for the olympics so I had an opprotunity to interact with many of these guys. Cael IMO is the best technical, and iron willed wrestler in history. Now if the post was" best 10 wrestler of alltime based on accomplishments" I guess Sanderson would be out. And something else i've always felt, it would be hard for me to say a Greco Roman competitor is the best of all time. Many times in these competitions, the Greco wrestlers are guys who didn't make the cut in freestlye, so changes to Greco. Not all mind you, but you'd be surprised how much this happends even on a high level. Freestyle is a complete game, where as Greco is not. Now the agrument can be made that Greco is harder and takes more skill of course. I've watched a ton of tapes of the wrestling greats when I was training seriously, and I watched Cael Sanderson after I was done competing, and let me tell you, he IS ...not "could have been" something special. IMO the BEST. Of course this is all opinion and none of it can be proven either way. lol.

oh and why should American wrestler be penalized because they DO have college wrestling. I so confused by that. Who gives a crap whether other countries do or don't. The Olympics are different, however qualifying for the olympics is very similar. All year including off season tourneys, you're pretty much wrestling the same dudes over and over. The best college wrestler are the ones wrestling in qualifying tournies. Unless things have changed a whole lot since I was competing. Which by the way is very very possible. lol.

Palma
08-24-2007, 07:04 AM
Actually I do have an idea. I wrestled freestyle in many national qualifying events, so I have a pretty good idea. And I didn't say Cael "could have been" i'm saying he's the best based on skill. I'm not basing this soley on accomplishments, i'm basing it on being up close and personal with these guys. My close friend was an alternate for the olympics so I had an opprotunity to interact with many of these guys. Cael IMO is the best technical, and iron willed wrestler in history. Now if the post was" best 10 wrestler of alltime based on accomplishments" I guess Sanderson would be out. And something else i've always felt, it would be hard for me to say a Greco Roman competitor is the best of all time. Many times in these competitions, the Greco wrestlers are guys who didn't make the cut in freestlye, so changes to Greco. Not all mind you, but you'd be surprised how much this happends even on a high level. Freestyle is a complete game, where as Greco is not. Now the agrument can be made that Greco is harder and takes more skill of course. I've watched a ton of tapes of the wrestling greats when I was training seriously, and I watched Cael Sanderson after I was done competing, and let me tell you, he IS ...not "could have been" something special. IMO the BEST. Of course this is all opinion and none of it can be proven either way. lol.

oh and why should American wrestler be penalized because they DO have college wrestling. I so confused by that. Who gives a crap whether other countries do or don't. The Olympics are different, however qualifying for the olympics is very similar. All year including off season tourneys, you're pretty much wrestling the same dudes over and over. The best college wrestler are the ones wrestling in qualifying tournies. Unless things have changed a whole lot since I was competing. Which by the way is very very possible. lol.

If you are going off skill level alone then I would rank John Smith, Kenny Monday, Dan Gable, Karelin, and Sergey Beloglazov over Cael.

I think what you said about Greco wrestlers not being able to hack it in freestyle is true in the US but in Russia and Europe it is held in high regard since it was the original form of wrestling and allot of Greco wrestler start concentrating on Greco at a very young age.

I think Cael is the best American Wrestler of our generation but if you go back, even based on skill alone I wouldn't call him the best and he is my favorite wrestler of all time. I have to be objective here. Accomplishments in wrestling are a great indicator of how good a wrestler acutally was or is. Even with Cael, he is easily the best college wrestler of all time based on his skill and accomplishments.

Silvastar
09-12-2007, 06:43 PM
Hulk Hogan :lmfao:


I'm sorry, I just saw an opening.

I was heading the same direction.:laughing4: