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Transworld
08-10-2007, 07:22 PM
Do you think that MMA organizations like the UFC, WEC, XC, etc will end up fixing fights in the future? The reason I ask; a high percentage of people at the UFC events are not true fans of the MMA. There are a lot of people who just go to watch people fight. And when they see a very technical fight, they boo. As for the rest of use watching, we appreciate the level of skill that a fighter has acquired. That being said, with the turn around rate of Champions holding belts being so high, it makes it difficult to market fighters and have the fans really get to know and like each fighter. A few years ago fighters held the belt for a very long time, look at Gracie, Hughes, etc. But now the fight game is so dynamic that a fighter can loose on any given day. How many fighters are going to retire undefeated? Even boxing had champions for years that dominated the sport; they became house hold names because of it. But how will the MMA build house hold names if the belt changes hands twice per year? Only the true fans will recognize each new fighter and the fans that do not follow the sport as close will just see a fight. It would be like watching movies with no big name Hollywood actors. Some of us couldn’t care a less about big name actors. But some people just watch movies because of who is starring in it. Do you feel that it is important to have dominant fighters in the sport like boxing had Ali, Sugar Ray, Mike Tyson, etc?

eazye76
08-10-2007, 07:33 PM
There is no way to prevent a single fighter/ref being on the take, that is the case in any sport. Any respectable org, like the ones you listed have the integrity to offer a legitimate product. It is up to the marketing people to make sure the audience has heard of the guys fighting. Barring something like the incident in the NBA, I do not believe the UFC, etc would fix fights, if I did I would not watch it.

Gmunit
08-10-2007, 07:38 PM
i would like to think NOT, i also think this thread should be CLOSED

Transworld
08-10-2007, 07:48 PM
i would like to think NOT, i also think this thread should be CLOSED

Hey Gmunit, I am not saying that they would do such a thing or being disrespectful to the sport in anyway. Just asking a question in the sense of marketing MMA and keeping fans over time. The conversation came up with one of the instructors after class. And I was saying how MMA is just getting so big. He said that it will be hard to keep this growth curve because of turn over. How will they market the sport and build names at the same time.

Clint
08-10-2007, 07:50 PM
It is entirely possible that individuals will conspire to fix fights however there is too much risk at an organizational level for them to get involved.

matto
08-10-2007, 07:53 PM
i would really hope not, that would suck, but its not intirly impossible. if an organization wants to protect a fighter to make him look better or get another fedor like fighter. i hope it would never happen and it'd be horrible for the sport.

eazye76
08-10-2007, 08:04 PM
i would like to think NOT, i also think this thread should be CLOSED


It is entirely possible that individuals will conspire to fix fights however there is too much risk at an organizational level for them to get involved.
Well said, people have no reason to think it's fixed, if they did MMA would like pro-wrestling. Dana White is not Vince McMahon, and I don't see him becoming Vince McMahon anytime soon.

pillow
08-10-2007, 08:55 PM
They have worked so hard to get MMA sanctioned that if it began to become fixed, there would be some huge financial and legal repercussions if it were discovered. So much that it would probably hardly be worth it.

However... I could see some of the pre-fight hype become more-so scripted, and I think in some organizations, some behavior is certainly influenced. Like in that interview (I forgot who it was, I read about it here) when the guy said the Pride guys tried to get him to make some bigoted remarks against Japan. I think this is a much more real possibility.

Transworld
08-10-2007, 08:56 PM
The instructor didn’t give me a word in the conversation. I brought up the point of it being hard to get away with this on a corporate level; perhaps individuals. But by the time I left the disagreement; I was even more confused by his comments. So I am just asking, not stating..

He also brought up some of the Pride incidents.

pillow
08-10-2007, 09:14 PM
To answer the question of if the sport needs dominant fighters:

Fans' alliances to fighters is a strange thing. Honestly, I got into AA cause he looks like a Beast, has vampire mouthguards, and I dug his aggressive style.

I think style makes fans, more than wins do.

I have a buddy who like Spencer Fisher because of his flying knee a long time ago, for example. People hop onto fighter's hype trains for very strange reasons. Being particularly dominant isn't necessary.

You know, the multitude of Matt Hughes and Chuck Liddell fans probably comes from the fact that they're pretty easy to relate to, and Hughes had his slams and wrestling strength. And Chuck has quite the striking highlight reel.

Look at Tim Sylvia. He was relatively dominant (by some standards) for a far piece. But I can't think of a single true fan of his, rather than the "pity fans" that pretend to like him, haha.

So, no, I don't think it's so important that single fighters emerge. All fighters have a certain ego about them that made them become a fighter in the first place, so there will be no shortage of appealing personalities.

matto
08-10-2007, 09:25 PM
on sherdog there were a ton of rumors of fixed fights in pride on beloved japanese heros. i hope that isnt true and if it did we woudlnt really know where fighters rank.

Transworld
08-10-2007, 09:50 PM
on sherdog there were a ton of rumors of fixed fights in pride on beloved japanese heros. i hope that isnt true and if it did we woudlnt really know where fighters rank.


Not that is is true or happening at the present time. Just asking if it would be possible? I would like to change the thread title to "would it be possible to fix MMA fights?

2mcgrath
08-11-2007, 12:08 AM
like stated they have worked to hard to get their foot into the mainstream door.i think if they were caught doing that then it would strip all credibility they have built up.so why risk it?also if they do start fixing fights then it wont be much different than the fake ass pro wrestling and i will no longer be a viewer

jamesg2323
08-11-2007, 02:37 AM
What would be the point for the Org to fix matches? In terms of making more money it doesn't make sense. UFC already makes more PPV money than the "fixed" WWE.

matto
08-11-2007, 03:06 AM
Not that is is true or happening at the present time. Just asking if it would be possible? I would like to change the thread title to "would it be possible to fix MMA fights?

where there is money there is always the possibility. money can even change the proudest of fighters. the people at sherdog that said it were actually pritty credible, i wish i had the link but ill find it eventually and post it here. those japanese are crazy about somebody just for being from japan.

twankydawg
08-11-2007, 07:46 PM
I think any self respecting fighter wouldn't throw a fight that they could win considering they would run the chance of ruining their careers for a 1 time payout. There is too much talent and money to be made in the sport for the fighters, orgs, and promoters to do something that retarded. I'm not saying it won't happen but if it does I believe it would be rare. There is already a niche market on fixed fights, it's called professional wrestling.

Mac
08-11-2007, 08:19 PM
I think it's getting farther away from that now that Pride is no longer run by an organized crime syndicate.

Jon-E-Law
08-14-2007, 10:57 PM
money money money people will do anything for money so yes but there is way to much up and coming talent so they wont have to for a while

Clint
08-14-2007, 11:00 PM
where there is money there is always the possibility. money can even change the proudest of fighters. the people at sherdog that said it were actually pritty credible, i wish i had the link but ill find it eventually and post it here. those japanese are crazy about somebody just for being from japan.
Here is one of the things from Sherdog:


Fights that are generally considered by consensus to be worked or thrown:

Oleg Taktarov vs. Anthony Macias (UFC VI) - According to Macias, Buddy Albin the local site promoter and manager of both fighters threatened that Macias' career would be over unless he took a dive against Oleg. Oleg was unware of this. Macias went on to win titles in several Albin-promoted events. Buddy Albin was a total sleeze bag BTW.

Dan Severn vs. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga (U-Japan) - Severn denies that his fight against pro wrestler Matsunaga was worked, but watching the fight itself leaves little doubt and the general consensus is that this was a worked fight.

Kimo vs Kazushi Sakuraba (S-Cup) - This was billed as a legit NHB fight on a Shootboxing card, but it turns out it was not legit (another NHB fight on the card, M. Illioukhin vs Mestre Hulk was legit). The fight looks very real and Kimo lands a number of really solid shots and headbutts. There are several versions of what took place in this fight, but perhaps the closest thing to the truth is the version that has Sakuraba carrying Kimo for most of the fight before finally taking a dive without Kimo's knowledge. That would explain Kimo throwing real shots and Sak playing defense the whole time and also the fact that Kimo vehemently (and convincingly) insists it was legit, yet Sakuraba has said on several occasions that his first shoot MMA fight was the Conan Silviera fight, not the Kimo fight.

Murakami Kazunari vs. John Dixon (Pride 1) - It was well-known in the fight community even before the first Pride took place that the Kazunari-Dixon and Kitao-Jones fights would be works. Pride's initial intent was to showcase different types of fights in addition to NHB - full contact karate, kickboxing and also shoot-style works like RINGS and PWFG. Later Pride would be more secretive about its worked fights.

Koji Kitao vs Nathan Jones (Pride 1) - See above.

Nobuhiko Takada vs. Kyle Sturgeon (Pride 3) - All of Takadas "wins" were blatant works. This is pretty much common knowledge.

Nobuhiko Takada vs. Mark Coleman (Pride 5) - See above.

Nobuhiko Takada vs. Alexander Otsuka (Pride 7) - See above.


Fights that are suspected of being works but there is no consensus agreement:

Don Frye vs. Mark Hall 3 (Ultimate Ultimate 2) - Several months after the fact Hall claimed that in the locker room before the match Frye had offered him $50,000 to take a dive so he would be fresh when he fought Tank in the finals (Frye had had a grueling match with Goodridge in the opening round and was exhausted). Hall came out with his accusations because, he said, Frye never paid him. Frye vehemently denied it and said Hall was a disturbed individual. Hall was blacklisted by the fight community and never fought again. The jury is still out on this one.

Naoya Ogawa vs. Gary Goodridge (Pride 6) - Anytime a pro wrestler (other than Sak) gets a win in Pride people will claim it was a work. Gary denies this was a work but many people suspect it was. Hard to tell for sure.

Naoya Ogawa vs. Masaaki Sataki (Pride 11) - See above.

Vitor Belfort vs. Joe Charles (Ultimate Japan 1) - Vitor was sick and refused to fight unless he was able to pick his opponent. He chose Charles who was one of his training partners at the time. No strikes were thrown in what turned out to be a grappling match, with Vitor winning by armbar. Whether this was a worked fight or they simply had a gentleman's agreement not to strike is open to question.

Mark Schultz vs. Leopoldo Montenegro (Jungle Fight 1) - Schultz claims this was work but everyone else involved denies it. There have been questions about some of Montenegro's other fights in the Inoki run promotion as well.

Pancrase works: - The Pancrase organiztion admitted that there had been some worked fights early on, but did not say how many or which ones. Fights that most people agree were works are Shamrock-Hume, Shamrock-Suzuki 2, and Suzuki-Funaki. A number of others are suspected. Bas Rutten claims that he never participated in a work in Pancrase.


Also Rampage said in an interview that they offered him an extra $20K in his fight to Saku if he lost and didn't tap to a sub. He turned down the offer and lost but tapped.