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View Full Version : Best ways to beat a wrestler....



kaiz77
10-07-2007, 02:36 AM
Well....this Monday a buddy of mine will be training with me and I just wanted to know if anyone could give me some tips....

Hes a very good wrestler...state finals every year....just very quick and solid...

obviously he is still uncomfertable off of his back...so I wanna get him there whenever I can.....so far Ive had good luck with the flower sweep... and thats about it......he always explodes and stands in my guard (still closed)...but I cant off balance him from there.....any suggestions....or good off balancing techniques that involve hooking a leg er something?....

so far Im just thinking these are my options......
keep him really tight...and somehow unable to pop up to his feet...
flower sweep...
heel hook when he stands....

any help at all guys would be great!!!....thank in advance....
Happy training...

Palma
10-07-2007, 02:47 AM
Well, I would pull gaurd on him. I think rubber guard works good on allot of wrestlers since they usually don't posture up when they are in full guard.

Just don't let the wrestling get the better of you. Sue he will have good takedowns, takedown D, top control, and a good base. But there are allot of things that go against him as well. Wrestlers give up arms like crazy. I've been using wrist locks on a wrestlers lately. They know they can usually power out of a shoulder lock or roll with the Gogo, but you can't really do shit about a wrist lock.

I think leg locks work well for wrestlers as well.

Noob
10-07-2007, 02:52 AM
Well....this Monday a buddy of mine will be training with me and I just wanted to know if anyone could give me some tips....

Hes a very good wrestler...state finals every year....just very quick and solid...

obviously he is still uncomfertable off of his back...so I wanna get him there whenever I can.....so far Ive had good luck with the flower sweep... and thats about it......he always explodes and stands in my guard (still closed)...but I cant off balance him from there.....any suggestions....or good off balancing techniques that involve hooking a leg er something?....

so far Im just thinking these are my options......
keep him really tight...and somehow unable to pop up to his feet...
flower sweep...
heel hook when he stands....

any help at all guys would be great!!!....thank in advance....
Happy training...


Best bet would be to ask a wrestler. I'm sure Palma could give some insight on something like this.


From my perspective, the things that have worked best for me:


Full guard. The full guard is not something that is used in wrestling in the same sense as BJJ, so it's a new beast for wrestlers. Use that to your advantage. Closed guard, tight hooks.


It depends on the gi. If you've got the gi on, you're at a little more of an advantage as most wrestlers are not accustomed to wearing it. Without the gi I generally make sure to be extra diligent about my under and overhooks. I don't want to give him any room to breathe or create opportunity.


Flower sweep, using underhooks to take the back, guillotines. These seem to work best for me against wrestlers. They are notoriously hard to sweep, but I almost won't even bother trying to submit them off of my back as it's a big toss up.


If you're wearing the gi, then gi sweeps, gi chokes, using the lapels to trap arms and set up attacks. These are things that a wrestler with no BJJ experience will not know to defend until they have trained for a while.



One of my favorite submissions that I almost never get to work, but on wrestlers seems to be particularly effective, is transitioning directly from butterfly guard to a kneebar. Hook the leg like you're going to work a sweep, then take out a hook and flip yourself upside down. You can transition straight to a kneebar, heel hool, or an ankle lock depending on how they react.



Wrestlers also like to keep their heads down, which present opportunities at times. There is a particular choke from guard when their head is on your stomach or chest that works well. It doesn't always submit them, but it makes them lift their head without fail. It doesn't have a name that I know of, but you basically slide your hand under their throat and wiggle it through, then take your other hand and push down on their head. If they don't move, you end up kind of slicing their throat with the blade edge of your hand.

Palma
10-07-2007, 02:59 AM
One of my favorite submissions that I almost never get to work, but on wrestlers seems to be particularly effective, is transitioning directly from butterfly guard to a kneebar. Hook the leg like you're going to work a sweep, then take out a hook and flip yourself upside down. You can transition straight to a kneebar, heel hool, or an ankle lock depending on how they react.

That's interesting... I haven't gotten to work with Butterflyguard for the most part but that sounds like a good stragtegy. I think wrestlers in general are careless with their limbs because the concentrate so much on positioning and top control.

Lol, I never thought I would be more into BJJ then wrestling...

Noob
10-07-2007, 03:05 AM
That's interesting... I haven't gotten to work with Butterflyguard for the most part but that sounds like a good stragtegy. I think wrestlers in general are careless with their limbs because the concentrate so much on positioning and top control.

Lol, I never thought I would be more into BJJ then wrestling...



Butterfly guard is a bitch. It seems to up the stakes for every movement. If you're better than the other guy this is good, because you force him to act. But if you're not as good then it can get you into a lot of trouble. Closed guard is much safer, but in the long run it just doesn't offer you as many options.


And yeah, wrestlers with little or no BJJ experience tend to be careless with limbs. Legs even more so in my experience. It only takes a few armbars to learn not to leave your arms out. But legs are just harder to take care of. You have to use them all the time, and it's easy to forget about them as being vulnerable.



The school I'm at now is primarily gi-based, which I don't particularly like but it is a good learning experience. There are so many more setups with the gi once you get accustomed to the open guard. Just takes a long time to get them down. I'm still just barely scratching the surface.




Lol, Palma converting to the dark side. Haven't heard about your training much lately, you still enjoying it?

NixHex
10-07-2007, 06:06 AM
Butterfly guard is a bitch. It seems to up the stakes for every movement. If you're better than the other guy this is good, because you force him to act. But if you're not as good then it can get you into a lot of trouble. Closed guard is much safer, but in the long run it just doesn't offer you as many options.


And yeah, wrestlers with little or no BJJ experience tend to be careless with limbs. Legs even more so in my experience. It only takes a few armbars to learn not to leave your arms out. But legs are just harder to take care of. You have to use them all the time, and it's easy to forget about them as being vulnerable.
I've fallen in love with the rubber guard on opponents of all shapes and sizes, I'm more comfortable in the rubber guard than I am in full guard.

My butterfly guard is pretty weak, but I have pushed off the hips of wrestlers extending my legs, and when they push back (wrestlers always will) I roll under and isolate a leg.

I think wrestlers are careless with limbs because they're more worried about balance and basing out, which leads to isolated limbs.

Noob
10-07-2007, 06:12 AM
I've fallen in love with the rubber guard on opponents of all shapes and sizes, I'm more comfortable in the rubber guard than I am in full guard.




I always tell myself I'm going to work on my rubber guard before class. But then I get in and start rolling, and I just end up staying tight and establishing my hooks and looking to pick apart the other guy's posture.


I don't have very long legs, so especially against bigger guys it's hard for me to get into the rubber guard. I haven't yet developed a reliable entry for it, one that I can count on or set up. I usually end up forcing butterfly guard, or half butterfly, and working on picking apart their base.


I wish I had some better entries for it. It's harder for me to work in no-gi because of the slippery nature of not wearing the gi, but I would like to be able to use it more often. Just hard on bigger guys.

Palma
10-07-2007, 06:18 AM
Lol, Palma converting to the dark side. Haven't heard about your training much lately, you still enjoying it?

It's been great. We have so many good fighters comming out of our gym. On thursday I went up against this purple belt who was the national champ in the US last year. He kicked my ass all over but I learned allot from it.

We never get to work on takedowns which is good for me since I really need to work on everything else.

My neighbor/friend/nogi instructor has taken me under his wing and gives me a private lesson every other week on top of practicing two to three times a week. I actually gave up lifitn weights I have been training and running so much.

I may compete soon in the Masters division. We don't have any old whitebelts my age so I think rolling with the young guys all the time might give me an edge.

I got my first Gogo on Tuesday. It was sweet, I was sparing against this kid who is a great high school wrestler and got my guard, pulled rubber guard, and slipped it in. It was cool, everyone who saw was cheering.

Noob
10-07-2007, 06:26 AM
It's been great. We have so many good fighters comming out of our gym. On thursday I went up against this purple belt who was the national champ in the US last year. He kicked my ass all over but I learned allot from it.

We never get to work on takedowns which is good for me since I really need to work on everything else.

My neighbor/friend/nogi instructor has taken me under his wing and gives me a private lesson every other week on top of practicing two to three times a week. I actually gave up lifitn weights I have been training and running so much.

I may compete soon in the Masters division. We don't have any old whitebelts my age so I think rolling with the young guys all the time might give me an edge.

I got my first Gogo on Tuesday. It was sweet, I was sparing against this kid who is a great high school wrestler and got my guard, pulled rubber guard, and slipped it in. It was cool, everyone who saw was cheering.



Very cool. Your first gogo is always a memorable thing. I still remember mine.


That's very cool that you're going to compete. You'll have to keep us posted. It's always good to hear about everyone else and what they're doing.



So, can we expect to see some Saulo Ribeiro, or Marcelo Garcia, or one of the Gracies in your sig sometime soon then? Lol, if you're getting serious about BJJ, it's only fitting that you have an appropriate sig.

Palma
10-07-2007, 06:29 AM
Very cool. Your first gogo is always a memorable thing. I still remember mine.

That's very cool that you're going to compete. You'll have to keep us posted. It's always good to hear about everyone else and what they're doing.

So, can we expect to see some Saulo Ribeiro, or Marcelo Garcia, or one of the Gracies in your sig sometime soon then? Lol, if you're getting serious about BJJ, it's only fitting that you have an appropriate sig.

I would probably go with Jake Sheilds at this point, lol... If I move up in belts and get good then I can sport the elite BJJ fighters.

Noob
10-07-2007, 06:31 AM
I would probably go with Jake Sheilds at this point, lol... If I move up in belts and get good then I can sport the elite BJJ fighters.


Fair enough. Definitely keep me posted if you decide to compete. Or even if you don't. I always like hearing about other guy's training, etc.

NixHex
10-07-2007, 06:34 AM
I always tell myself I'm going to work on my rubber guard before class. But then I get in and start rolling, and I just end up staying tight and establishing my hooks and looking to pick apart the other guy's posture.


I don't have very long legs, so especially against bigger guys it's hard for me to get into the rubber guard. I haven't yet developed a reliable entry for it, one that I can count on or set up. I usually end up forcing butterfly guard, or half butterfly, and working on picking apart their base.


I wish I had some better entries for it. It's harder for me to work in no-gi because of the slippery nature of not wearing the gi, but I would like to be able to use it more often. Just hard on bigger guys.
For my size I have long legs, but i'm only 5'8 so they're not very long considering larger opponents. It appears I have very good flexibility though, which has compensated well so far. The only entry I really use is the one off the Eddie Bravo Rubber Guard Instructional, I get a high guard & an overhook... then hug the knee on the side of the overhook while reaching behind his neck to grab my ankle. Once you grab your ankle you can release the overhook and start isolating & working from "Mission Control".
If they try to posture up while you're bringing your leg behind his neck, the arm that you have overhooked is waiting to be armbarred.

Palma
10-07-2007, 06:35 AM
Fair enough. Definitely keep me posted if you decide to compete. Or even if you don't. I always like hearing about other guy's training, etc.

If I compete, our team usually records as many matches as possible. You guys can see what it looks like for a fat guy to take someone down.

Noob
10-07-2007, 06:39 AM
If I compete, our team usually records as many matches as possible. You guys can see what it looks like for a fat guy to take someone down.


That's cool that they do that. Probably a good idea.


Lol, as long as you're taking them down. If they're being taken down I don't imagine they have any room to say much. And at least you can take people down. I pull guard so often it's not even funny. I will go to great lengths to get someone in my guard.


I've got two tournaments coming up in November and December. Assuming everything goes well I will try to record them and post them here afterwards. Be nice to have footage if I manage to pull a gogo on someone, lol.

kaiz77
10-07-2007, 08:10 AM
Some great stuff there.......definetly going to try out that kneebar and all the stereotypes given about wrestlers are spot on here!!.....I do have a good wristlock from a tight guard...it is very effective..caught him in it once already.......as far as an improvised plan......Im gonna...

stay TIGHT.....
wristlocks.....
Leglocks....
flower sweep....
sit up guillotine...

I basically spend the entire time with my back to the mat...which I am very comfortable..... we'll see where it goes from there.... I'll def let you guys know how the game plan went after rolling Monday!!......ohh and noob...I only roll nogi.....and g'nightXX.....I gotta gain some flexibility first..lol.....I stretch often but I got a ways to go.......it just wasn't in my genetic makeup....

Thanks guys....always good info..as usual..

swalsh
10-08-2007, 01:30 AM
I would have to agree with those guys earlier who mentioned Rubber Guard. I am a small dude 5 '7" a buck thirty, I have the best results with R.G. after I have my opponent broken down in closed guard, closing any distance, I then put a foot on his hip then pull Rubber Guard. The foot on hip really helps with bigger guys. I am still learning so i generaly go for the triangle after that, squeeze like hell.

kaiz77
10-13-2007, 02:15 AM
just trained with him today and put on a clinic.....

I tried lots of different techniques and these are the ones I had success with...

closed TIGHT and HIGH guard......I constantly walked up my closed guard..pinning him at the shoulders.....from there...in and hour and a half

flower sweeps (3)
double armbar (1)
triangles (4) :grinsmile1: and you have to get a good angle quick or the stack is coming.....
closed guard wristlocks (1) ..(dont like to do them to training partners)
butterfly sweep (2) the sit up and use his momentum when he pushes back...
anaconda choke (1)
and I held side control easy to boot!!! I didnt even attempt submissions from top...he was so frustrated, I'd just give him a break and some tips...

Submission attempts against or times unable to get back to guard...ZERO!!
I worked such an aggressive style he couldnt even use his pinning ability....

Sorry if it sounds like Im trying to brag... but ...damn....everything just clicked today!!!........you guys ever have those days???...love to hear about them.....

happy training fellas....

Noob
10-13-2007, 02:21 AM
That's awesome. Glad to hear it worked out for you. Let us know how it continues.

Palma
10-13-2007, 02:45 AM
Good job man.

I know those days... I subbed my first Blue Belt last night. Our club hosts the US Open every year and we finally worked standing up for the first time since I was there since most guys are competeing next week. I was able to get in much better positions then starting out on knees.

He tried a head and arm and I pulled by weight down and got his back, I picked him up and swept his legs and ended up in side control. I noticed I ended up with his wrist and I had my grip and my other arm was right there so I had the Kimura and pulled it. It was a very good feeling.

Afro
10-13-2007, 04:23 AM
I would probably go with Jake Sheilds at this point, lol... If I move up in belts and get good then I can sport the elite BJJ fighters.
When did you join the Shields wagon?

kaiz77
10-13-2007, 04:53 AM
thanks noob......will do...

nice work palma....sounds very impressive...how long have you guys done BJJ?

Palma
10-13-2007, 05:56 AM
When did you join the Shields wagon?

I've liked Sheilds for a while, I just didn't rank him one or two spots above of where I should have ranked him in one thread. Lol, I don't even have BJ ranked eventhough I know he could easily take the division. Anyways, we are talking in terms of grappling and not MMA. I certainly have always thought Sheilds was the best WW outside of the UFC.



nice work palma....sounds very impressive...how long have you guys done BJJ?

Thanks. It's been almost 4 months now. I'm really stoked on it. It's way more mental then I originally thought it would be.

Brandon
10-15-2007, 05:53 AM
I've noticed that my wrestler buddies leave their necks open for chokes a lot.

kaiz77
10-15-2007, 06:52 AM
you know...Ive heard that....but I really haven't been able to expose it yet....
give the ol' guillotine a shot tomorrow during the roll.....

Ill let you know how it goes....

Brandon
10-17-2007, 06:42 AM
So how did it go?

BJJ Boy
10-20-2007, 02:39 PM
Wrestler VS Grappler?

You have nothing to fear.. Well, depanding on which type of wrestling, but he doesnt know how to submit so how can he win? Pin you?

Just go with the flow, you have a 80% chance of winning in my opinion.

kaiz77
10-20-2007, 06:03 PM
well.....went OK.....Im not a big fan of the standard guillotine anyway but I did stick it a couple of times in an hour and a half.......I just never tend to go for it because I dont want to be a guillotine jockey...lol............and to be honest...Iwasnt looking for it a lot because I like other techniques more......

but maybe next time I can consciously try to remember to get it more...lol
sorry..lol...........Ill try again