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View Full Version : prime roy jones vs. pbf



icemanct
09-21-2006, 05:17 AM
i'll take my boi rj but it would be an awesome bout,who do yall think would win

Luis Cruz
09-21-2006, 05:59 AM
Jones in his prime fought at super middleweight/light heavyweight (168-175). Mayweather is already pushing it fighting at 147 and talking 154. He'd have to eat an entire pig to make Roy's weight and then he'd get killed cause Jones would've been too strong for him with equal if not greater speed. Can't compare them fighting each other, too much of a size difference. The only thing you can realistically ask about these two is who is the better pound 4 pound fighter in their primes.

Greenish
09-21-2006, 09:18 AM
I agree, size difference is to big. p4p I would take Mayweather all the way. Jones's boxing skills have never been something special, he has always relied on his extraodinary speed to get in and out before his opponents can react.

power - RJJ a bit more powerfull
chin - RJJ has average, but PFB's is A class
speed - slight edge to Jones
offence - Jones's is very good, but Mayweather's is excellent
defence - Jones's is mere average, PBF's is once again excellent

Bottomline is that p4p RJJ has nothing on PBF while Floyd has his amazing skills to fall back on. I can't see how Jones could win.

Afro
09-21-2006, 02:06 PM
If you go offa talent alone.. RJJ all day!

Punk Ass
09-22-2006, 12:52 AM
I agree, size difference is to big. p4p I would take Mayweather all the way. Jones's boxing skills have never been something special, he has always relied on his extraodinary speed to get in and out before his opponents can react.

power - RJJ a bit more powerfull
chin - RJJ has average, but PFB's is A class
speed - slight edge to Jones
offence - Jones's is very good, but Mayweather's is excellent
defence - Jones's is mere average, PBF's is once again excellent

Bottomline is that p4p RJJ has nothing on PBF while Floyd has his amazing skills to fall back on. I can't see how Jones could win.

Going by the fact that no one has ever come close to landing a good hit against Roy in his prime I think his defense was better because of pure speed. PBF has had close fights. Roy didn't and he fought the best (Hopkins and Toney). Roy jones knocked more people out in his prime so I say offence goes to RJJ. PPF chin is probably better.

I say RJJ was the best P4P in the last 25 years when in his prime.

I pick him over Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Ray Lenard.

Opinions?

Luis Cruz
09-22-2006, 01:32 AM
Going by the fact that no one has ever come close to landing a good hit against Roy in his prime I think his defense was better because of pure speed. PBF has had close fights. Roy didn't and he fought the best (Hopkins and Toney). Roy jones knocked more people out in his prime so I say offence goes to RJJ. PPF chin is probably better.

I say RJJ was the best P4P in the last 25 years when in his prime.

I pick him over Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Ray Lenard.

Opinions?

Better than Ray Leonard is his prime??? HELL NO! lol If i had more time i'd break it down, maybe tomorrow at work.

Afro
09-22-2006, 02:13 AM
Going by the fact that no one has ever come close to landing a good hit against Roy in his prime I think his defense was better because of pure speed. PBF has had close fights. Roy didn't and he fought the best (Hopkins and Toney). Roy jones knocked more people out in his prime so I say offence goes to RJJ. PPF chin is probably better.

I say RJJ was the best P4P in the last 25 years when in his prime.

I pick him over Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Ray Lenard.

Opinions?
I followed RJJ throughout his career so im biased towards him but over SRL I dunno

Greenish
09-22-2006, 10:15 AM
Going by the fact that no one has ever come close to landing a good hit against Roy in his prime I think his defense was better because of pure speed. PBF has had close fights. Roy didn't and he fought the best (Hopkins and Toney). Roy jones knocked more people out in his prime so I say offence goes to RJJ. PPF chin is probably better.

I say RJJ was the best P4P in the last 25 years when in his prime.

I pick him over Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and Ray Lenard.

Opinions?


I disagree very much. Defence based on pure atleticism won't work against someone who can almost match your speed (or use long reach to nullify it, like Tarver did). RJJ has KOed a lot of people becase he spent years at LHW fighting tomato cans served to him by santioning bodies.
To say he fought the best isn't correct, he never faced Eubanks, Benn or the linear champ at LHW, Dariusz Michalczewski. Even though I would favor Jones over all of them.

Lenard is definitly better than RJJ, Hagler as well IMO while Hearns prolly isn't.

Punk Ass
09-22-2006, 04:30 PM
I disagree very much. Defence based on pure atleticism won't work against someone who can almost match your speed (or use long reach to nullify it, like Tarver did). RJJ has KOed a lot of people becase he spent years at LHW fighting tomato cans served to him by santioning bodies.
To say he fought the best isn't correct, he never faced Eubanks, Benn or the linear champ at LHW, Dariusz Michalczewski. Even though I would favor Jones over all of them.

Lenard is definitly better than RJJ, Hagler as well IMO while Hearns prolly isn't.

Ray Lenard was fast, no doubt. But Ray was a WW moving up to MW, Roy was natural with much more power than SRL. Roy was definately faster than Hearns or Hagler, and could match speed with Lenard which no one else could do, the difference being Roy was bigger and stronger.

Tarver only nulified Roy because Roy was on the down slide of his career. And how can you say he never fought the best? WTF are BHop and Toney? Cans? ROy beat them both easily for the title and Roy cleaned out the LHW division before getting old over night.

Greenish
09-22-2006, 05:35 PM
Since we're talking about p4p fact that RJJ is naturaly bigger than SRL doesn't matter.

Jones never cleaned out LHW, in fact he never fought man who was #1 when Jones moved up to LHW.

Jones has fough some of his times best but has also skiped (notice I don't say ducked) several. Definition of greatness is fighting and beating best of your time and IMO RJJ has done a half-assed job at that and IMO can't compare to an all time great like SRL.

Afro
09-22-2006, 05:37 PM
Whoa Roy fought a lot of good fighters people

THE GUY HAD LIKE 100 BELTS! LOL he didnt take belts from cans

Reggie Johnson, Otis Grant, Percy Haris, Clinton Woods, 1 win over Antonio Tarver, Glen Kelly, Montell Griffin all solid to good fighters

Bernard Hopkins, James Toney... LEGENDS and he didnt beat these guys when they were up and comers they were good when he beat them.

Movin up to HW and beatin John Ruiz is another milestone as well.

Punk Ass
09-22-2006, 09:36 PM
Whoa Roy fought a lot of good fighters people

THE GUY HAD LIKE 100 BELTS! LOL he didnt take belts from cans

Reggie Johnson, Otis Grant, Percy Haris, Clinton Woods, 1 win over Antonio Tarver, Glen Kelly, Montell Griffin all solid to good fighters

Bernard Hopkins, James Toney... LEGENDS and he didnt beat these guys when they were up and comers they were good when he beat them.

Movin up to HW and beatin John Ruiz is another milestone as well.

You also forgot about Vinnie Pazienza former MW champion and Virgil Hill former LHW champion. Both great fighters...

Hill owned the LHW division until he fought RJJ. He was the Recognized LHW champion, and Roy made him look like a amature. Hell I think a prime Virgil Hill would beat Antonio Tarver pretty easily.

Afro
09-23-2006, 03:00 AM
I gotta post some RJJ clips

one where he hit the dude with 4 hooks back to back to back to back, the sickest combo and hardest to imitate as well

and the one where he went behind the guys back and then KO'd him! amazing!

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 03:26 AM
Yeh, he did al lot of shit that made you say wowwwww!! he's the man.

Afro
09-23-2006, 03:29 AM
Yeh, he did al lot of shit that made you say wowwwww!! he's the man.
knocking James Toney down nuff said

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 03:55 AM
knocking James Toney down nuff said

Actually it wasn't all that impressive, Toney was mocking him and then got caught off balance, nothing special. But overall the win was.

Greenish
09-23-2006, 12:38 PM
Hill owned the LHW division until he fought RJJ. He was the Recognized LHW champion, and Roy made him look like a amature. Hell I think a prime Virgil Hill would beat Antonio Tarver pretty easily.

Wrong, Hill owned LHW untill he fought Dariusz Michalczewski. When RJJ got to him Virgin didn't have a single title nor was he linear champ.

I don't mean make a flame war here, I just don't think RJJ is on same level as SRL, neither skill- nor legacy-wise.

Afro
09-23-2006, 02:34 PM
Actually it wasn't all that impressive, Toney was mocking him and then got caught off balance, nothing special. But overall the win was.
how do you remember all this stuff? lol

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 03:18 PM
how do you remember all this stuff? lol

I've been watching a long ass time, i've been a die hard forever. A megafight like that you don't forget. It wasn't all that long ago either, you should remember that fight. lol

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 04:41 PM
I've been watching a long ass time, i've been a die hard forever. A megafight like that you don't forget. It wasn't all that long ago either, you should remember that fight. lol

Yeh I remember it like it was yesterday. The early 90s, I was about 15 year old and I was watching RJJ before anyone new who he was, most people who hate on him never seen him fight in his prime because they were to young to remember or care. Most of my friends have never watched RJJ until he was in the LHW division but by that time he was slowly on a down slide. Like I said, I think he was arguably the best MW ever.

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 04:46 PM
Wrong, Hill owned LHW untill he fought Dariusz Michalczewski. When RJJ got to him Virgin didn't have a single title nor was he linear champ.

I don't mean make a flame war here, I just don't think RJJ is on same level as SRL, neither skill- nor legacy-wise.

I stand corrected, but the RJJ fight was right after the Dariusz fight. Hill and DM went to a unanimous Dec. while RJJ destroyed Hill. Im also inclined to believe DM didn't take all of Hills titles.

BTW: Dariusz also just lost to Fabrice Tiozzo who lost to Virgil Hill twice, the second time by TKO, they all seem to be on the same level of skill to me. Great fighters, but wasn't on the level of RJJ, but I would take any of them to possibly beat Tarver IMO.

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 04:54 PM
Yeh I remember it like it was yesterday. The early 90s, I was about 15 year old and I was watching RJJ before anyone new who he was, most people who hate on him never seen him fight in his prime because they were to young to remember or care. Most of my friends have never watched RJJ until he was in the LHW division but by that time he was slowly on a down slide. Like I said, I think he was arguably the best MW ever.

Best 'Middleweight' ever? NOOOOOOOOO, not by a long shot. That distinct honor goes to Sugar Ray Robinson and no one can argue that. I also put Marvin Hagler above him, he was THE MAN forever. Then there's Hopkins who a lot of people might place higher than him because of his lengthy run as champ.

Afro
09-23-2006, 05:09 PM
Best Super Middleweight ever is RJJ though

and nah I cant hardly remember his fights but I did suffer a concussion/fracture in my head not too long ago must be why cuz ive seen just about every fight RJJ was in from his up-and-comin days and throughout his reign, I can hardly remember the Montell Griffin DQ, the James Toney fight was 12 years ago I cant even remember anythin about it. That sucks, ima have to go grab some RJJ fights and refresh my memory.

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 05:19 PM
Best 'Middleweight' ever? NOOOOOOOOO, not by a long shot. That distinct honor goes to Sugar Ray Robinson and no one can argue that. I also put Marvin Hagler above him, he was THE MAN forever. Then there's Hopkins who a lot of people might place higher than him because of his lengthy run as champ.

Im talking about prime vs prime. BHop and RJJ in their prime, RJJ alwayz wins.

And this is my opinion, I haven't seen SRR fight to much to gage his skills, all his WW fights were never filmed, all I know is that his best fights were against a slow jake lamotta but i do hand it to him though, he had the longest bum of the month club ever.

Checking other forums RJJ vs SRR seems to be pretty split as far as who would win. There really was no other fighter out there that fought like RJJ ever. The closest was SRR but many say RJJ was faster and bigger, but SRR had more skills and more one punch power,(even though RJJ had 1 punch power as well at MW. Who knows:confusedsmilie:

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 05:29 PM
Im talking about prime vs prime. BHop and RJJ in their prime, RJJ alwayz wins.

And this is my opinion, I haven't seen SRR fight to much to gage his skills, all his WW fights were never filmed, all I know is that his best fights were against a slow jake lamotta but i do hand it to him though, he had the longest bum of the month club ever.

Checking other forums RJJ vs SRR seems to be pretty split as far as who would win. There really was no other fighter out there that fought like RJJ ever. The closest was SRR but many say RJJ was faster and bigger, but SRR had more skills and more one punch power,(even though RJJ had 1 punch power as well at MW. Who knows:confusedsmilie:

Who would win in a fight or ranking for being better fighter? If there are some other forums out there that are split on the second question, i'd like to see them. Most consider Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest boxer of all time of any weightclass and RJJ is nowhere near that. So those people are clueless. As for a fight in their primes, i'd still lean with Robinson. There's a lot of footage out there of him, there's a dvd i believe somewhere plus on classics they show his fights also. Only a harcore RJJ fan that knows nothing of boxing's earlier years would ever say he was better than Robinson.

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 05:41 PM
Who would win in a fight or ranking for being better fighter? If there are some other forums out there that are split on the second question, i'd like to see them. Most consider Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest boxer of all time of any weightclass and RJJ is nowhere near that. So those people are clueless. As for a fight in their primes, i'd still lean with Robinson. There's a lot of footage out there of him, there's a dvd i believe somewhere plus on classics they show his fights also. Only a harcore RJJ fan that knows nothing of boxing's earlier years would ever say he was better than Robinson.

Im not saying RJJ could have definately beaten SRR I really don't know but, looking at Roy's style early in his career, it wasn't to many out there that could have beaten him. Here the forum you requested, the only one I could find. These are not expert opinions, but opinions none the less, BTW it's a short thread. http://forums.maxboxing.com/lofiversion/index.php/t27642.html

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 05:54 PM
Im not saying RJJ could have definately beaten SRR I really don't know but, looking at Roy's style early in his career, it wasn't to many out there that could have beaten him. Here the forum you requested, the only one I could find. These are not expert opinions, but opinions none the less, BTW it's a short thread. http://forums.maxboxing.com/lofiversion/index.php/t27642.html

Even on there you can tell the people that chose Robinson knew what they were talking about while the 2 that picked RJJ didn't give much detail as to why. Them fighting each other wasn't what i was talking about when i meant a clear winner, people could argue that cause RJJ WAS bigger. I meant who the better fighter was and that was clearly Robinson.

Punk Ass
09-23-2006, 08:58 PM
Even on there you can tell the people that chose Robinson knew what they were talking about while the 2 that picked RJJ didn't give much detail as to why. Them fighting each other wasn't what i was talking about when i meant a clear winner, people could argue that cause RJJ WAS bigger. I meant who the better fighter was and that was clearly Robinson.

Ok I don't argue that. But, you said you put hagler above Roy, that I do argue. Roy would beat him exactly the way SRL did except Hagler would land less punches. IMO Roy was way to fast for hagler in his prime. Hagler would of played right into Roys hands. Hagler has a simular style to Tito Trinidad except his chin is much better. He wasn't a slick fighter he was text book. It takes a little more than text book to beat RJJ. I would even pick BHop or a Prime Toney to beat him. They both are slick elusive fighters with great chins. Hagler would never be able to land a solid punch while hagler is not known for his defense he was more known for power and relentlessness.

Luis Cruz
09-23-2006, 09:19 PM
Ok I don't argue that. But, you said you put hagler above Roy, that I do argue. Roy would beat him exactly the way SRL did except Hagler would land less punches. IMO Roy was way to fast for hagler in his prime. Hagler would of played right into Roys hands. Hagler has a simular style to Tito Trinidad except his chin is much better. He wasn't a slick fighter he was text book. It takes a little more than text book to beat RJJ. I would even pick BHop or a Prime Toney to beat him. They both are slick elusive fighters with great chins. Hagler would never be able to land a solid punch while hagler is not known for his defense he was more known for power and relentlessness.

Hagler would take a shot to land one. You don't truly believe Roy would've escaped an entire bout without getting hit? Hagler had bricks and one shot would've ended the night for Roy and his very suspect chin. That Sugar Ray win was very controversial and Sugar Ray was a better boxer than Roy with a better chin also, he was the total package and a top two Welterweight of all time. No way would i pick Roy over Hagler, or the other two you mentioned. See what Bernard thinks of Hagler, he is very high on him and for good reason. Sometimes textbook is all you need to get the job done, look at Oscar and Bernard except a guy with 3-4xs the power. Roy was in a time where he didn't have a Hagler, Hearns, or Sugar Ray caliber fighter he had to face. Toney was good and Hopkins was good, but they both got better with time. You're a huge RJJ fan aren't you? lol

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 12:12 AM
Hagler would take a shot to land one. You don't truly believe Roy would've escaped an entire bout without getting hit? Hagler had bricks and one shot would've ended the night for Roy and his very suspect chin. That Sugar Ray win was very controversial and Sugar Ray was a better boxer than Roy with a better chin also, he was the total package and a top two Welterweight of all time. No way would i pick Roy over Hagler, or the other two you mentioned. See what Bernard thinks of Hagler, he is very high on him and for good reason. Sometimes textbook is all you need to get the job done, look at Oscar and Bernard except a guy with 3-4xs the power. Roy was in a time where he didn't have a Hagler, Hearns, or Sugar Ray caliber fighter he had to face. Toney was good and Hopkins was good, but they both got better with time. You're a huge RJJ fan aren't you? lol

Ok listen. If you think RJJ fighting Toney without getting hit with a clean punch was nothing than your crazy. Bernard has some pop with his punches also. tHEY NEVER, NEVER, landed a clean shot. What makes hagler different? In fact i would say Toney has more power at MW than Hagler. Sure RJJ would get hit but in order to get knocked out, he would have to get hit clean. Something that wouldn't happen. Have you seen roy fight as a MW? I don't think so, or your just being arbitrary. I really don't think SRL was a better boxer than Roy. That both have gold metals (dont tell me Roy didn't win that fight). So how can you be so sure these Hagler and Lenard are better than him?

BTW, Lenard lost to Terry Norris when he was only 35 years old. Terry Norris lost 3 fights, before him and SRL ever fought. Let me break this down so it all comes back to RJJ. Terry Norris lost to julian Jackson, who in turn gets his ass whopped by Mike McCallum, who got his ass whopped by James Toney, who everyone knows got got his ass whopped by Roy Jones Jr.

It seems to me, that on paper RJJ is better than Sugar Ray Lenard because he got his ass whopped by by someone who was never better than average (Terry Norris). Now granted this was on the down slide of SRL career but Jesus Christ, he should have at least been able to beat Terry Norris :confusedsmilie: . Everyone else did. hehe!!

I hope you read this Afro Samurai!!!

Afro
09-24-2006, 12:21 AM
I read it and to be real im the biggest RJJ Fan but I gotta take SRL over him as far as better legacy, who would win in a fight between them I dunno but you make a good point, if Terry Norris can beat him why cant Roy? and the same goes for Hagler and Hearns

Personally I rank RJJ over Hagler and Hearns even with the fact that they fought through a better legacy with higher competition, but who would win in that fight is a different story.. I think SRL is Top 5 Greatest of all time and I wouldnt put RJJ in the Top 5, Top 10 for sure though.

SRR is another story, I dunno who has this guy as the #1 boxer of all time but I talk to a good 50-100 boxer fans on another forum and there was a thread about a Top 5 list and SRR was at #5 on just about EVERY list, again RJJ vs SRR who knows who would win SRR is GREAT but hes lost 19 times! thats 19 people that RJJ would of probably beaten including LaMotta so again who knows who would win that fight its not a reach to say Roy would win it, he is one of the most physically talented boxer that ever lived (note that I said ONE OF the most)

One thing thats being ignored about Roy Jones Jr here is he beat every last person that was put in front of him in his prime, Montell Griffin, James Toney, Bernard Hopkins to name a few all got beat by RJJ

Roy Jones has only been defeated by two boxers, Tarver and Glen Johnson and this was out of his prime. He got a bs DQ against Griffin only to revenge that loss later on by KO. Roy Jones Jr was undefeated throughout his career and he was only beaten when he was well out of his prime, washed up, and pretty much no longer ROY JONES JUNIOR and it was against guys that are good boxers.. he didnt lose to scrubs out of his prime his career is very decorated and he deserves to be mentioned with some of the greats, because he was great. Underappreciated because people felt he fought cans.. he didnt fight cans he was just that damn good and he stunted a lot of careers.. he beat down guys that woulda been considered good if it wasnt for RJJ.

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 12:30 AM
I read it and to be real im the biggest RJJ Fan but I gotta take SRL over him as far as better legacy, who would win in a fight between them I dunno but you make a good point, if Terry Norris can beat him why cant Roy? and the same goes for Hagler and Hearns

Personally I rank RJJ over Hagler and Hearns even with the fact that they fought through a better legacy with higher competition, but who would win in that fight is a different story.. I think SRL is Top 5 Greatest of all time and I wouldnt put RJJ in the Top 5, Top 10 for sure though.

SRR is another story, I dunno who has this guy as the #1 boxer of all time but I talk to a good 50-100 boxer fans on another forum and there was a thread about a Top 5 list and SRR was at #5 on just about EVERY list, again RJJ vs SRR who knows who would win SRR is GREAT but hes lost 19 times! thats 19 people that RJJ would of probably beaten including LaMotta so again who knows who would win that fight its not a reach to say Roy would win it, he is one of the most physically talented boxer that ever lived (note that I said ONE OF the most)

One thing thats being ignored about Roy Jones Jr here is he beat every last person that was put in front of him in his prime, Montell Griffin, James Toney, Bernard Hopkins to name a few all got beat by RJJ

Roy Jones has only been defeated by two boxers, Tarver and Glen Johnson and this was out of his prime. He got a bs DQ against Griffin only to revenge that loss later on by KO. Roy Jones Jr was undefeated throughout his career and he was only beaten when he was well out of his prime, washed up, and pretty much no longer ROY JONES JUNIOR and it was against guys that are good boxers.. he didnt lose to scrubs out of his prime his career is very decorated and he deserves to be mentioned with some of the greats, because he was great. Underappreciated because people felt he fought cans.. he didnt fight cans he was just that damn good and he stunted a lot of careers.. he beat down guys that woulda been considered good if it wasnt for RJJ.

Exactly, adn yes SRL was very good in his time but he has lost to people who have lost to people who RJJ beat easily so to say he definately can beat RJJ is stupid. The proof is in the pudding. I mean come on....im sorry but Roy would have dominated the MW division IMO. SRL just wasn't that much better, if at all better, in his prime, and RJJ had a lot more power than SRL.

Afro
09-24-2006, 12:33 AM
Exactly, adn yes SRL was very good in his time but he has lost to people who have lost to people who RJJ beat easily so to say he definately can beat RJJ is stupid. The proof is in the pudding. I mean come on....im sorry but Roy would have dominated the MW division IMO. SRL just wasn't that much better, if at all better, in his prime, and RJJ had a lot more power than SRL.
I think physically Roy definently has the edge but SRL would of been able to outbox him, cant predict the winner but SRL is still in my Top 5 maybe even Top 3 cuz of his legacy, his fights hold more weight then Roys and thats not Roys fault but thats just how it goes down, but still an SRL vs Roy fight woulda been good.

Hell at my other forum there was a Tyson vs Ali thread, you wouldnt believe how many people had Tyson winnin that but it was a damn good debate. Despite the fact that WAY too many people had Tyson KOing Ali.

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 12:39 AM
I think physically Roy definently has the edge but SRL would of been able to outbox him, cant predict the winner but SRL is still in my Top 5 maybe even Top 3 cuz of his legacy, his fights hold more weight then Roys and thats not Roys fault but thats just how it goes down, but still an SRL vs Roy fight woulda been good.

Hell at my other forum there was a Tyson vs Ali thread, you wouldnt believe how many people had Tyson winnin that but it was a damn good debate. Despite the fact that WAY too many people had Tyson KOing Ali.

Honestly I could believe it. I had Tyson KOing Ali Also lol. I know it may sound crazy but honesly, Tyson was just as fast as Ali in his prime and I just can't see how Ali could avoid getting hit. I've seen so many of Tysons fights and words dont describe that man, But we wont argue about that. I hope!! :grinsmile1:

Afro
09-24-2006, 12:41 AM
Honestly I could believe it. I had Tyson KOing Ali Also lol. I know it may sound crazy but honesly, Tyson was just as fast as Ali in his prime and I just can't see how Ali could avoid not getting hit. But we wont argue about that. :grinsmile1:
Ya Tyson had the speed and power combo but some of the arguements were that Ali never fought a boxer as strong as Tyson or as Fast and they were countered by Joe Frazier (speed + strength) and a much stronger boxer then Tyson in Foreman, neither dude KO'd Ali and Ali actually KO'd Foreman.. I think Ali would do the same to Tyson and his suspect chin. It be hard for Tyson to hit Ali, and Ali will find an opening and put Tyson on his back.. you cant brawl a boxer of Ali's caliber IMO.

BOXING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FIGHTING

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 12:51 AM
Ok listen. If you think RJJ fighting Toney without getting hit with a clean punch was nothing than your crazy. Bernard has some pop with his punches also. tHEY NEVER, NEVER, landed a clean shot. What makes hagler different? In fact i would say Toney has more power at MW than Hagler. Sure RJJ would get hit but in order to get knocked out, he would have to get hit clean. Something that wouldn't happen. Have you seen roy fight as a MW? I don't think so, or your just being arbitrary. I really don't think SRL was a better boxer than Roy. That both have gold metals (dont tell me Roy didn't win that fight). So how can you be so sure these Hagler and Lenard are better than him?

BTW, Lenard lost to Terry Norris when he was only 35 years old. Terry Norris lost 3 fights, before him and SRL ever fought. Let me break this down so it all comes back to RJJ. Terry Norris lost to julian Jackson, who in turn gets his ass whopped by Mike McCallum, who got his ass whopped by James Toney, who everyone knows got got his ass whopped by Roy Jones Jr.

It seems to me, that on paper RJJ is better than Sugar Ray Lenard because he got his ass whopped by by someone who was never better than average (Terry Norris). Now granted this was on the down slide of SRL career but Jesus Christ, he should have at least been able to beat Terry Norris :confusedsmilie: . Everyone else did. hehe!!

I hope you read this Afro Samurai!!!


Toney was more into matching Roy's style with him than actually fighting him. He didn't want to be shown up if you actually watched this fight you'd know that. Hagler don't play those games and the shit he threw he always threw with intentions behind them. Toney and Hopkins' gameplan wasn't to ko Roy it was to outbox him, Hagler's gameplan would be to corner him and at some point he would and catch him. You're putting Roy on this superman platform just because he ran through some mediorce competition aside from them two guys.

As for Sugar Ray, saying they both got gold medals, doesn't make them equals in the pro ranks, that was pointless. Also making a ladder of how opponents chained together makes RJJ better is also pointless, it's the abc theory that doesn't work in any sport and people use for arguments sake when there's nothing else. Norris was peaking when he fought Ray and Ray was far and beyond not even a fraction of the fighter he was. Since you mention weak opponents they should have beaten, then mention Griffin who gave Roy all he could handle in their first fight and was actually winning until the DQ. Don't come back with Roy ko'd him in the 2nd fight because the 1st was a fight that exposed the holes in his game IN HIS PRIME. Arguments aren't won on paper, so it doesn't matter what theory's you come up with using the abc theory.

In closing, Sugar Ray was a better boxer because he used jabs and perfect combos while having super defense, tremendous speed, power, a great chin, and a lot of heart. Roy had great speed, power, good combos, and that's it. His heart didn't get tested until later and it failed along with his chin. All around boxer, Ray. Hagler was a beast with damn near flawless textbook boxing. Obviously we'll never know who would actually win in a fight cause it'll never happen but if you ask the experts of boxing and boxing historians who was the better boxer in their prime 95% are going to say Ray simply because he was, his attributes outweigh Roys that's a fact. Floyd Mayweather, if he stays on track, will also go down as a better boxer than Roy, but in his case i hope he loses everytime i see him fight (except when he fought Judah). Oh and i'm pretty sure my video library of fighters is a lot thicker than yours and it's all in my brain housing group. I think the problem is that while i have seen Roy's entire career you haven't seen these guys. :thumbsup:

Afro
09-24-2006, 12:55 AM
well I hope Floyd doesnt stay on track then =)

hell ideally not realisticly I want him to beat De La Hoya and lose to Sugar Shane

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 12:55 AM
Ya Tyson had the speed and power combo but some of the arguements were that Ali never fought a boxer as strong as Tyson or as Fast and they were countered by Joe Frazier (speed + strength) and a much stronger boxer then Tyson in Foreman, neither dude KO'd Ali and Ali actually KO'd Foreman.. I think Ali would do the same to Tyson and his suspect chin. It be hard for Tyson to hit Ali, and Ali will find an opening and put Tyson on his back.. you cant brawl a boxer of Ali's caliber IMO.

BOXING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FIGHTING

Forman beat the hell out of Frazier!!!!!!!!!!!! Forman much much slower than Tyson and Frazier. Tyson much faster with much much better defense than both of them. All though Ali is another issue, but I don't think he's ever fought anyone with the same speed and Defense as Tyson. Tyson was very hard to hit in his prime. Frazier was basically a sitting target IMO.

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 01:01 AM
Also yes boxing > slugging but what is the best defense against a boxer??

Answer = A very very good slugger!!

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 01:04 AM
Afro- What is this???

"SRR is another story, I dunno who has this guy as the #1 boxer of all time but I talk to a good 50-100 boxer fans on another forum and there was a thread about a Top 5 list and SRR was at #5 on just about EVERY list, again RJJ vs SRR who knows who would win SRR is GREAT but hes lost 19 times! thats 19 people that RJJ would of probably beaten"

and then this....

"Hell at my other forum there was a Tyson vs Ali thread, you wouldnt believe how many people had Tyson winnin that but it was a damn good debate. Despite the fact that WAY too many people had Tyson KOing Ali."

That right there made your other forum lose all creditibilty of being knowledgable. lol 19 losses yea....BUT 173 WINS WITH 108 KOS! A career that spanned more than 25 years. Roy fell apart after 15 years, imagine what he'd look like in 10 more years?? You people are posting in the wrong places. Go email Eddie Goldman, a REAL boxing historian, and ask him what he thinks about these two debates and without hesistation i guarentee he'll agree with me and laugh at you if you said Robinson was #5 of all time. You better do some homework and go watch videos, he was lightyears ahead of his time as far as skills, he just fought too damn much and too damn long but was still the man.

Tyson koing Ali, that's funny! Tyson struggled against an ok boxer early in his career but when he was running over everybody. Tillis gave him a lot more than people expected and Tyson looked lost at times when Tillis was jabbing. Ali would've took him to school.

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 01:06 AM
Also yes boxing > slugging but what is the best defense against a boxer??

Answer = A very very good slugger!!

You just explained Jones vs Hagler, thanks. :wavesmile:

AudieMurphy1
09-24-2006, 01:06 AM
ali was way to smart for tyson

Afro
09-24-2006, 01:12 AM
Afro- What is this???

"SRR is another story, I dunno who has this guy as the #1 boxer of all time but I talk to a good 50-100 boxer fans on another forum and there was a thread about a Top 5 list and SRR was at #5 on just about EVERY list, again RJJ vs SRR who knows who would win SRR is GREAT but hes lost 19 times! thats 19 people that RJJ would of probably beaten"

and then this....

"Hell at my other forum there was a Tyson vs Ali thread, you wouldnt believe how many people had Tyson winnin that but it was a damn good debate. Despite the fact that WAY too many people had Tyson KOing Ali."

That right there made your other forum lose all creditibilty of being knowledgable. lol 19 losses yea....BUT 173 WINS WITH 108 KOS! A career that spanned more than 25 years. Roy fell apart after 15 years, imagine what he'd look like in 10 more years?? You people are posting in the wrong places. Go email Eddie Goldman, a REAL boxing historian, and ask him what he thinks about these two debates and without hesistation i guarentee he'll agree with me and laugh at you if you said Robinson was #5 of all time. You better do some homework and go watch videos, he was lightyears ahead of his time as far as skills, he just fought too damn much and too damn long but was still the man.

Tyson koing Ali, that's funny! Tyson struggled against an ok boxer early in his career but when he was running over everybody. Tillis gave him a lot more than people expected and Tyson looked lost at times when Tillis was jabbing. Ali would've took him to school.
im not downplaying SRR I think hes better then RJJ im just saying that its not a reach to say that RJJ would beat him cuz he lost 19 ppl that are worst then RJJ but I definently rank SRR above RJJ, im gonna just say Top 5 cuz I never saw him box wouldnt know where to put him but I know enough to know his legacy > RJJ's

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 01:22 AM
im not downplaying SRR I think hes better then RJJ im just saying that its not a reach to say that RJJ would beat him cuz he lost 19 ppl that are worst then RJJ but I definently rank SRR above RJJ, im gonna just say Top 5 cuz I never saw him box wouldnt know where to put him but I know enough to know his legacy > RJJ's

I'm not debating a fight with them, that's an argument that will never be won. lol I was just saying ranking on the all time best list.

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 01:42 AM
You just explained Jones vs Hagler, thanks. :wavesmile: Not really. I think RJJ was a better boxer than Hagler was a slugger.


Toney was more into matching Roy's style with him than actually fighting him. He didn't want to be shown up if you actually watched this fight you'd know that. Hagler don't play those games and the shit he threw he always threw with intentions behind them. Toney and Hopkins' gameplan wasn't to ko Roy it was to outbox him, Hagler's gameplan would be to corner him and at some point he would and catch him. You're putting Roy on this superman platform just because he ran through some mediorce competition aside from them two guys.

As for Sugar Ray, saying they both got gold medals, doesn't make them equals in the pro ranks, that was pointless. Also making a ladder of how opponents chained together makes RJJ better is also pointless, it's the abc theory that doesn't work in any sport and people use for arguments sake when there's nothing else. Norris was peaking when he fought Ray and Ray was far and beyond not even a fraction of the fighter he was. Since you mention weak opponents they should have beaten, then mention Griffin who gave Roy all he could handle in their first fight and was actually winning until the DQ. Don't come back with Roy ko'd him in the 2nd fight because the 1st was a fight that exposed the holes in his game IN HIS PRIME. Arguments aren't won on paper, so it doesn't matter what theory's you come up with using the abc theory.

In closing, Sugar Ray was a better boxer because he used jabs and perfect combos while having super defense, tremendous speed, power, a great chin, and a lot of heart. Roy had great speed, power, good combos, and that's it. His heart didn't get tested until later and it failed along with his chin. All around boxer, Ray. Hagler was a beast with damn near flawless textbook boxing. Obviously we'll never know who would actually win in a fight cause it'll never happen but if you ask the experts of boxing and boxing historians who was the better boxer in their prime 95% are going to say Ray simply because he was, his attributes outweigh Roys that's a fact. Floyd Mayweather, if he stays on track, will also go down as a better boxer than Roy, but in his case i hope he loses everytime i see him fight (except when he fought Judah). Oh and i'm pretty sure my video library of fighters is a lot thicker than yours and it's all in my brain housing group. I think the problem is that while i have seen Roy's entire career you haven't seen these guys. :thumbsup:

First of all, you have no idea what BHop or JT's stratigy was because you weren't in the ring. They just got their asses whipped. plain and simple. RJJ was a better fighter than them and your just not giving him credit.

Second of all, Norris was never that good. because his losses were not that far from each other. And I find it hard to believe that in those 3 losses before he beat SRL that he wasn't in his prime. My little chain that I did was very valid because in boxing that more than not, WORKS, not saying that it counts in every situation, but usually the best fighter (not going by rankings) can beat everyone the fighter he's beaten has beaten. And RJJ took Montel Griffen lightly for obvious reasons, which he proved in the second fight.

And in closing. Yes Ray lenards legacy is and will be better than RJJs and thats only because he was lucky enough to what most people think were the best boxers in the world in his division. Unfortuatly RJJ beat everybody so damn easily most weren;t even considered all that great until now, while James Toney and Bernard Hopkins are become Hall Of Famers and Roy Jones is just a shell of himself because his style is not fit for the long hall, but good enough to make him an all time great in his prime.

IMO better than SRL, Hearns, and Hagler :fingersmilie:

Afro
09-24-2006, 01:48 AM
I'm not debating a fight with them, that's an argument that will never be won. lol I was just saying ranking on the all time best list.
oh no question you gotta go with SRR and SRL

Eras define greatness in all sports, it sucks but thats just how it is

SRR was dominate and SRL was dominate in a greater era then RJJ was, so naturally there legacies hold more weight, has nothin to do with talent or who would win in a fight, but in the rankings you shouldnt ever see RJJ ranked above SRR or SRL in fact he'd be lucky to be at the tailend of the Top 10 and RJJ was my fav boxer of all time! but his era wasnt as great as others, but when it comes down to who he can beat.. he has a shot against a lot of the greats because he is a great, you can match him up with a great boxer in his weight division.

RJJ was my fav boxer of alltime and will most likely remain that way, he was the first boxer that I Was able to follow from the beginning to the end of his career. I was real young when he started out boxing.. guys like Lennox Lewis whos another one of my favorites were already conquering, I remember Tysons early days too, Holyfield, but Roy Jones was the one that as a Kid I watched and said he was gonna be great just because I was watchin a guy make his way to the top and for the simple fact that he became great he became my fav fighter.

But sadly hes done, but now I got Allan Green to cheer for!

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 01:54 AM
Andre Ward my new favorite fighter of all times after a few years go by and he knocks out Jermain Taylor. He's great I hope ya'll are following him.

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 01:55 AM
Not really. I think RJJ was a better boxer than Hagler was a slugger.



First of all, you have no idea what BHop or JT's stratigy was because you weren't in the ring. They just got their asses whipped. plain and simple. RJJ was a better fighter than them and your just not giving him credit.

Second of all, Norris was never that good. because his losses were not that far from each other. And I find it hard to believe that in those 3 losses before he beat SRL that he wasn't in his prime. My little chain that I did was very valid because in boxing that more than not, WORKS, not saying that it counts in every situation, but usually the best fighter (not going by rankings) can beat everyone the fighter he's beaten has beaten. And RJJ took Montel Griffen lightly for obvious reasons, which he proved in the second fight.

And in closing. Yes Ray lenards legacy is and will be better than RJJs and thats only because he was lucky enough to what most people think were the best boxers in the world in his division. Unfortuatly RJJ beat everybody so damn easily most weren;t even considered all that great until now, while James Toney and Bernard Hopkins are become Hall Of Famers and Roy Jones is just a shell of himself because his style is not fit for the long hall, but good enough to make him an all time great in his prime.

IMO better than SRL, Hearns, and Hagler :fingersmilie:

I guess you can't see someone's strategy when watching a fight, IT'S OBVIOUS. I don't need to be in the ring. They were both good fighters then with some power. So yea i can make that statement because that's EXACTLY what happened. I gave Roy the credit somewhere you just chose to ignore it when i said he did a great job in the Toney fight.

Bringing up Norris again when Leonard was OBVIOUSLY well past his time and should've been retired already. Not even 75% of himself in his prime. So again no your ranking ladder doesn't apply here because of that otherwise you have to count Jones in the "shell of himself" fights, don't pick and choose to benefit your argument, it's not going to work.

And the last paragraph was nothing but an RJJ fan talking. Saying his guys didn't look great because of him, no it's because they WEREN'T great. People say Ray had very high caliber fighters and fought them in their prime because he did, better opposition than Roy all around. End of story, UFC time.

Afro
09-24-2006, 01:58 AM
Andre Ward my new favorite fighter of all times after a few years go by and he knocks out Jermain Taylor. He's great I hope ya'll are following him.
9 fights and you already got him KOin JT bold prediction man lol but im always happy to see fighters like Ward step into boxing, the more the better! I want Boxing to stay strong.

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 02:17 AM
9 fights and you already got him KOin JT bold prediction man lol but im always happy to see fighters like Ward step into boxing, the more the better! I want Boxing to stay strong.

Yeh...:ahh: whooooooooo!!!!!!

now for that luis dude.:angrrry:

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 02:21 AM
Yeh...:ahh: whooooooooo!!!!!!

now for that luis dude.:angrrry:

Hey go ahead and add this to the end of that sig..


......but Luis knows more.:angry4:

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 02:22 AM
I guess you can't see someone's strategy when watching a fight, IT'S OBVIOUS. I don't need to be in the ring. They were both good fighters then with some power. So yea i can make that statement because that's EXACTLY what happened. I gave Roy the credit somewhere you just chose to ignore it when i said he did a great job in the Toney fight.

Bringing up Norris again when Leonard was OBVIOUSLY well past his time and should've been retired already. Not even 75% of himself in his prime. So again no your ranking ladder doesn't apply here because of that otherwise you have to count Jones in the "shell of himself" fights, don't pick and choose to benefit your argument, it's not going to work.

And the last paragraph was nothing but an RJJ fan talking. Saying his guys didn't look great because of him, no it's because they WEREN'T great. People say Ray had very high caliber fighters and fought them in their prime because he did, better opposition than Roy all around. End of story, UFC time.

Ok, I see you just don't give up. I'll give you this. Yes Ray was well passed his prime, so was RJJ. I'm a big SRL fan aswell even though you probably can't tell. It's Just that IMO I think RJJ had a chance against all of these guys. They never fought so we all don't really know but even though I might be a little biased I still think Roy had a chance "sighs"
That's all I wanted to say, now can we all enjoy some BJ vs Matt?

:partysmilie1: have a beer, hope you enjoy the fight :grinsmile1:

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 02:23 AM
Hey go ahead and add this to the end of that sig..


......but Luis knows more.:angry4:

LOL BS:fingersmilie:

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 02:24 AM
Ok, I see you just don't give up. I'll give you this. Yes Ray was well passed his prime, so was RJJ. I'm a big SRL fan aswell even though you probably can't tell. It's Just that IMO I think RJJ had a chance against all of these guys. They never fought so we all don't really know but even though I might be a little biased I still think Roy had a chance "sighs"
That's all I wanted to say, now can we all enjoy some BJ vs Matt?

:partysmilie1: have a beer, hope you enjoy the fight :grinsmile1:

yup but penn and loiseau will lose, i bet on them to win and i ALWAYS fucking lose when i bet!

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 02:27 AM
yup but penn and loiseau will lose, i bet on them to win and i ALWAYS fucking lose when i bet!

Them im glad your not rooting for either of them, and dont change your mind. go Penn!!!!!!!!!:ahh:

Punk Ass
09-24-2006, 02:28 AM
yup but penn and loiseau will lose, i bet on them to win and i ALWAYS fucking lose when i bet!

Them im glad your not rooting for either of them, and dont change your mind your bad luck lol. go Penn!!!!!!!!!:ahh:

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 03:08 AM
No you misunderstood. I'm rooting for both of them and i put money on them, but everytime money comes in to play i lose no matter how good the odds are in my favor. So Penn and Loiseau will probably lose! Let's hope not though.

Run and Gun
09-24-2006, 06:59 PM
Ok all of this crap about RJJ having a weak or suspect chin has to stop. Body chemistry 101 is about to start. Roy Jones didnt just pack on weight to fight John Ruiz. He packed on alot of muscle through weight training. At the weigh in for the fight he weighed 194 I believe. Reports out of his camp said he carried a 5% body fat index. Anything under 4% is considered life threatening. The night of the fight he weighed 199pds. So his index would have maybe raised to 6%.

Now after the fight, Jones dropped back to 175 in 3 months for his fight with Tarver. Now for those who dont know, muscle weighs more than fat does. And for Jones, after the muscle mass gain, anything below 188pds would be pushing him below the safe limit on body fat index, and at that point he would be losing nothing but Muscle to drop the weight.

Not only did this make Jones a much weaker fighter when he returned to 175, he was also a damaged fighter. First, he could in no legitimate way have properly trained for the first fight while dropping that amount of muscle mass. Secondly, and I learned this early on while researching the dangers of rapid weight loos on amatuer wrestlers, the fluid that surrounds your brain,protecting it, is often thinned by rapid major weight loss, making you more prone to concussions. That fluid takes a very long time for your body to replenish.

So in short, Jones was in no way near the fighter he was before the jump to heavyweight.

No as for the argument about PBF, and Jones.

Jones is by far the better of the two p4p.

People seem to forget PBF recieved the gift decision against Castillo while in his prime, and the factg that for the past 3 years he has fought less the good competition. PBF is good, but he wouldnt beat a prime Shane Mosley, much less a ROY jONES.

Luis Cruz
09-24-2006, 07:33 PM
Ok all of this crap about RJJ having a weak or suspect chin has to stop. Body chemistry 101 is about to start. Roy Jones didnt just pack on weight to fight John Ruiz. He packed on alot of muscle through weight training. At the weigh in for the fight he weighed 194 I believe. Reports out of his camp said he carried a 5% body fat index. Anything under 4% is considered life threatening. The night of the fight he weighed 199pds. So his index would have maybe raised to 6%.

Now after the fight, Jones dropped back to 175 in 3 months for his fight with Tarver. Now for those who dont know, muscle weighs more than fat does. And for Jones, after the muscle mass gain, anything below 188pds would be pushing him below the safe limit on body fat index, and at that point he would be losing nothing but Muscle to drop the weight.

Not only did this make Jones a much weaker fighter when he returned to 175, he was also a damaged fighter. First, he could in no legitimate way have properly trained for the first fight while dropping that amount of muscle mass. Secondly, and I learned this early on while researching the dangers of rapid weight loos on amatuer wrestlers, the fluid that surrounds your brain,protecting it, is often thinned by rapid major weight loss, making you more prone to concussions. That fluid takes a very long time for your body to replenish.

So in short, Jones was in no way near the fighter he was before the jump to heavyweight.

No as for the argument about PBF, and Jones.

Jones is by far the better of the two p4p.

People seem to forget PBF recieved the gift decision against Castillo while in his prime, and the factg that for the past 3 years he has fought less the good competition. PBF is good, but he wouldnt beat a prime Shane Mosley, much less a ROY jONES.

I'm not about to start going back and forth on this thread again but just so you know Roy walks around in the 190s when he's not fighting. So he is always cutting that much weight when he drops to 175. Plus it wasn't the first fight he was ko'd it was the second. Which was well over a year later from the Ruiz fight. It was a year and a half from when he was ko'd by Johnson and 2 1/2 years when he was once again rocked bigtime by Tarver in the third fight, the eleventh round when he got hit clean and was out on his feet but survived to finish the fight because of Tarver's lack of aggression in the third fight. So all the talk and breaking down of your 'body chemistry' has to be explained on why he's always cut the weight before from the 190s and why after 2 1/2 years he still couldn't take a good shot. And that first Tarver ko he was caught on the chin with a perfect shot.

As for Floyd, if he faces the right competition to end his career and is successful he WILL surpass Roy's legacy. Obviously a fight between them is just silly to talk about since Roy is WAY bigger than Mayweather. The first fight between FLoyd and Castillo was also very close, could've went either way even though i thought Castillo should've got it (cause i disliked Floyd so it could've been a little bias) but you can't argue a close fight and decision like that. He clearly won the second fight. Prime Floyd vs Prime Shane at 135lbs i won't even make a guess, that would've just been a fight that went down in history as one of the greats.

Ok no more with this thread for me, time to move on from fantasy land and get with the shit that's happening today! :thumbsup:

Run and Gun
09-24-2006, 11:20 PM
Actually Roy walks around at about 185 pds, and again you are not understanding the toll the muscle mass loss took on a 34yr old fighter.

Let me spell it out slowly because you obviously dont understand. Dropping 10 pounds of water weight and fat is one thing, dropping 19 pounds of pure muscle is completely differant.

Once the damage was done to an aging fighter, it was done, time was not going to make the damage better.

Greenish
09-25-2006, 12:01 AM
Only change on RJJ's body I noticed is that his balls shrunk and then retracted back into the body after Tarver KOed him.

And Run and Gun you sure can talk a lot without saying anything. Instead of insulting those who don't agree with you and repeating over and over again that Jones body was damaged by weight loss why don't you just accept that not everybody has to agree with you?

Luis Cruz
09-25-2006, 01:02 AM
Actually Roy walks around at about 185 pds, and again you are not understanding the toll the muscle mass loss took on a 34yr old fighter.

Let me spell it out slowly because you obviously dont understand. Dropping 10 pounds of water weight and fat is one thing, dropping 19 pounds of pure muscle is completely differant.

Once the damage was done to an aging fighter, it was done, time was not going to make the damage better.


No Roy walks around in the 190s i know this for a fact cause HE SAID IT. Maybe you should know your boy a little better. Roy IS NOT a fat 190 or so, stop trying to make things up to help your argument. He may not have been AS muscular but he is muscular nontheless. It's probably about a 4-5lbs difference in muscle mass he was dropping. Now you use his age to say he can't recover but earlier you're arguing it takes time for the fluid in around the brain to replenish then i give you the times he had and you backtrack. Stop trying to talk shit with your cute little 'spelling' out comment because you look like an ass trying to talk smart and getting your points made irrelevant with rebuttals and changing up your story or repeating yourself.

icemanct
09-25-2006, 01:20 AM
first if pbf fought rjj in their primes,rjj would woop pbf's ass.rjj had his own textbook he cleaned out the whole middleweight division.pbf will never clean out the junior welterweight div pbf will waste baldomir and will get beat oscar.and then we'll all forget about pbf.and roy jones was the best pound for pound fighter in the world,but your goin to far sayin he was greater then srl and sugar ray robinson.

Run and Gun
09-25-2006, 09:05 AM
No Roy walks around in the 190s i know this for a fact cause HE SAID IT. Maybe you should know your boy a little better. Roy IS NOT a fat 190 or so, stop trying to make things up to help your argument. He may not have been AS muscular but he is muscular nontheless. It's probably about a 4-5lbs difference in muscle mass he was dropping. Now you use his age to say he can't recover but earlier you're arguing it takes time for the fluid in around the brain to replenish then i give you the times he had and you backtrack. Stop trying to talk shit with your cute little 'spelling' out comment because you look like an ass trying to talk smart and getting your points made irrelevant with rebuttals and changing up your story or repeating yourself.


OK, I wasnt being an ass with you, but I guess you got offended. I can quote an interview from 2001 on Boxingtalk.com where Jones in Fact said he walked around at 185 to 186 . Your just wrong, or Jones has said a differant walking around weight at a differant time. Dont question me, because I dont pull garbage out of my ass like some people do.

Now your muscular comment again shows your failed logic, and failure to understand how the human body works. Jones has always been ripped. and carried no more than a 5 to 6% body fat index when he fights.

Now pay close attention here. 175pds with a body fat index of of 5% and at 194pds with a body fat index of 5%. That is 19 pounds of of muscle mass gained if the body fat index remained the same.

Walking around weight for Jones, even if he did go up to 190 would not make him look fat, the dude was a freak. And to be honest at 190 he still was prob more ripped than most.

The problem lies with the way he crashed the weight off. It made him very weak as a fighter. In fact if you look at the first tarver fight and the johnson fight, they look almost identical, Jones laying on the ropes, unable to pull the trigger.

Jones crushed hall of famer Virgil Hill with a body shot, but peope discredit that win saying Hill was over the hill. Guess what, he was 34, the same age as Jones when he crashed the weight off. So haters twist the facts trying to take away from the best fighter of the last 25years. I dont like Jones the person, but respect the hell out of the fighter.

Let me ask you a question, why did Troy Aikman and Steve Young retire from football????? Numberous concussions. After the first severe one, it gets easier and easier to get another. Hell Aikman got like 7 before he hung it up. Although Jones won the first fight with Tarver, he was beat up and hurt badly. Then he was crushed by a haymaker in their second fight, then the very next fight, Johnson ( a guy who pre-ruiz, roy Jones would have played with) beat up and stopped Jones. Yes over time that fluid does replenish itself, but the effect of repeated concussions does not just heal itself. The damage is already done.

Punk Ass
09-25-2006, 04:44 PM
OK, I wasnt being an ass with you, but I guess you got offended. I can quote an interview from 2001 on Boxingtalk.com where Jones in Fact said he walked around at 185 to 186 . Your just wrong, or Jones has said a differant walking around weight at a differant time. Dont question me, because I dont pull garbage out of my ass like some people do.

Now your muscular comment again shows your failed logic, and failure to understand how the human body works. Jones has always been ripped. and carried no more than a 5 to 6% body fat index when he fights.

Now pay close attention here. 175pds with a body fat index of of 5% and at 194pds with a body fat index of 5%. That is 19 pounds of of muscle mass gained if the body fat index remained the same.

Walking around weight for Jones, even if he did go up to 190 would not make him look fat, the dude was a freak. And to be honest at 190 he still was prob more ripped than most.

The problem lies with the way he crashed the weight off. It made him very weak as a fighter. In fact if you look at the first tarver fight and the johnson fight, they look almost identical, Jones laying on the ropes, unable to pull the trigger.

Jones crushed hall of famer Virgil Hill with a body shot, but peope discredit that win saying Hill was over the hill. Guess what, he was 34, the same age as Jones when he crashed the weight off. So haters twist the facts trying to take away from the best fighter of the last 25years. I dont like Jones the person, but respect the hell out of the fighter.

Let me ask you a question, why did Troy Aikman and Steve Young retire from football????? Numberous concussions. After the first severe one, it gets easier and easier to get another. Hell Aikman got like 7 before he hung it up. Although Jones won the first fight with Tarver, he was beat up and hurt badly. Then he was crushed by a haymaker in their second fight, then the very next fight, Johnson ( a guy who pre-ruiz, roy Jones would have played with) beat up and stopped Jones. Yes over time that fluid does replenish itself, but the effect of repeated concussions does not just heal itself. The damage is already done.

I agree that everything your saying has a lot to do with Roy Jones's downfall. He would have been better off going to CW or staying at HW at that point. He would have still made many fighters look silly.

Luis Cruz
09-25-2006, 06:13 PM
OK, I wasnt being an ass with you, but I guess you got offended. I can quote an interview from 2001 on Boxingtalk.com where Jones in Fact said he walked around at 185 to 186 . Your just wrong, or Jones has said a differant walking around weight at a differant time. Dont question me, because I dont pull garbage out of my ass like some people do.

Now your muscular comment again shows your failed logic, and failure to understand how the human body works. Jones has always been ripped. and carried no more than a 5 to 6% body fat index when he fights.

Now pay close attention here. 175pds with a body fat index of of 5% and at 194pds with a body fat index of 5%. That is 19 pounds of of muscle mass gained if the body fat index remained the same.

Walking around weight for Jones, even if he did go up to 190 would not make him look fat, the dude was a freak. And to be honest at 190 he still was prob more ripped than most.

The problem lies with the way he crashed the weight off. It made him very weak as a fighter. In fact if you look at the first tarver fight and the johnson fight, they look almost identical, Jones laying on the ropes, unable to pull the trigger.

Jones crushed hall of famer Virgil Hill with a body shot, but peope discredit that win saying Hill was over the hill. Guess what, he was 34, the same age as Jones when he crashed the weight off. So haters twist the facts trying to take away from the best fighter of the last 25years. I dont like Jones the person, but respect the hell out of the fighter.

Let me ask you a question, why did Troy Aikman and Steve Young retire from football????? Numberous concussions. After the first severe one, it gets easier and easier to get another. Hell Aikman got like 7 before he hung it up. Although Jones won the first fight with Tarver, he was beat up and hurt badly. Then he was crushed by a haymaker in their second fight, then the very next fight, Johnson ( a guy who pre-ruiz, roy Jones would have played with) beat up and stopped Jones. Yes over time that fluid does replenish itself, but the effect of repeated concussions does not just heal itself. The damage is already done.

First thing i want to say is, that part i highlighted was a fan speaking. Don't say he was unable to pull the trigger, the truth is he was UNWILLING to pull the trigger. Sometime around the Ruiz fight is when Roy said he walked around in the 190s, so that 185 stuff you said must be back from the middleweight era which has nothing to do with this conversation. Roy lost his heart and will to fight after capturing the heavyweight title and that also came from ROY'S mouth, don't remember? He didn't use the excuse of losing the weight but other's did for his performance. Did you read any reports that said he suffered any concussions in the first fight? If not then that means he had time to get his body back to being the 175lbs it was for the second fight when he was actually ko'd being that he was coming from a fight at 175lbs so his body had to be use to it again since it was well over a year later from the Ruiz fight. Had this happened in the first fight you might have something but it didn't. When did you ever see Roy get hit like he did in those two fights he was ko'd? Never that's why his movement and defense were praised because he didn't get hit too often and hardly ever clean, so how do you know he wouldn't have been ko'd back then also? Yea a severe concussion will lead to easier ones in the future that goes for everyone whether they lose a lot of weight or not. Johnson wasn't really a one punch ko either, it was an accumulation of punches to the BODY AND head that set up a hard and clean shot that dropped him and ended the fight. Roy's heart was gone from fighting which also hurts his credibility as a great, that is one aspect a fighter is judged on also and you can't say the same for SRR and SRL. So the couple of times he actually gets hit clean in his career he gets ko'd, you can't disprove anything with what you say unless you had some proof from his past fights. Again all you did was repeat yourself and went nowhere with it. If you were right, he would've been stopped by the lesser shots he received in the first fight for 12 rounds not the ONE shot he received in the second some months later. So unless you have something new besides some "body chemistry" theory as to why he got ko'd don't bother replying.

Afro
09-25-2006, 06:15 PM
No you misunderstood. I'm rooting for both of them and i put money on them, but everytime money comes in to play i lose no matter how good the odds are in my favor. So Penn and Loiseau will probably lose! Let's hope not though.
its ridiculously unbelievable that this happened.. stop betting on my fighters!!! lol:angrrry:

Run and Gun
09-25-2006, 06:50 PM
Actually jones didntsay he lost his heart and will to fight anymore. What Jones did say is, I cant get up for these guys anymore.

Jones still believes is the the best P4P fighter in the world, I dont put alot of stock in anything he says.

We just have to agree to disagree. If you look at Roy Jones Pre- Ruiz, and Post-Ruiz, it is obvious he is not the same fighter.

And he didnt go in afraid all of the sudden after years of fighting.

Roy didnt move at all after moving back down, you say his movement kept him from being hit for years so who knows about his chin, but the fact is, once he moved back down he laid on the roped and didnt use his feet to move in and out like he did Pre-Ruiz.

Also Jones got hit clean with quite a few big shots from John Ruiz and they never fazed him.

Dont think John Ruiz hits hard??? Look at his record, and just ask James Toney who just fought Sam Peter. He stated that John Ruiz was stronger, and hit harder than Sam Peter did.

Punk Ass
09-25-2006, 07:37 PM
Actually jones didntsay he lost his heart and will to fight anymore. What Jones did say is, I cant get up for these guys anymore.

Jones still believes is the the best P4P fighter in the world, I dont put alot of stock in anything he says.

We just have to agree to disagree. If you look at Roy Jones Pre- Ruiz, and Post-Ruiz, it is obvious he is not the same fighter.

And he didnt go in afraid all of the sudden after years of fighting.

Roy didnt move at all after moving back down, you say his movement kept him from being hit for years so who knows about his chin, but the fact is, once he moved back down he laid on the roped and didnt use his feet to move in and out like he did Pre-Ruiz.

Also Jones got hit clean with quite a few big shots from John Ruiz and they never fazed him.

Dont think John Ruiz hits hard??? Look at his record, and just ask James Toney who just fought Sam Peter. He stated that John Ruiz was stronger, and hit harder than Sam Peter did.

I agree Jones became a different fighter after the ruiz fight. I do think that Knock out devastated Jones and his chin was and will never be the same again. They say that it's not good to fight so soon after a knock out like that because it can make you more suceptable to KOs and you may never recover. Also it can change your mind state and make you not as aggressive because your being too cautious. Not to mention the anouncers said numerous times if previous fights that it looked as if Roy was Step or two slower, so all of this added up

Luis Cruz
09-25-2006, 07:41 PM
its ridiculously unbelievable that this happened.. stop betting on my fighters!!! lol:angrrry:

Sorry bro but i warned you! lol


Actually jones didntsay he lost his heart and will to fight anymore. What Jones did say is, I cant get up for these guys anymore.

Jones still believes is the the best P4P fighter in the world, I dont put alot of stock in anything he says.

We just have to agree to disagree. If you look at Roy Jones Pre- Ruiz, and Post-Ruiz, it is obvious he is not the same fighter.

And he didnt go in afraid all of the sudden after years of fighting.

Roy didnt move at all after moving back down, you say his movement kept him from being hit for years so who knows about his chin, but the fact is, once he moved back down he laid on the roped and didnt use his feet to move in and out like he did Pre-Ruiz.

Also Jones got hit clean with quite a few big shots from John Ruiz and they never fazed him.

Dont think John Ruiz hits hard??? Look at his record, and just ask James Toney who just fought Sam Peter. He stated that John Ruiz was stronger, and hit harder than Sam Peter did.

I find saying you can't get up anymore the same as what i stated i just translated it for him. There's really no difference.

I think he knows he's not the best p4p fighter anymore, he still fights on ppv so he has to sell them and saying he's only a shell of himself from before isn't going to do it.

Yea he isn't the same fighter as before i never said he was, i said he used movement before. Not sure what you meant about being afraid?

Yea Ruiz hits hard but it was only one time he caught Jones with an OK shot and hurt him in that fight. He couldn't catch him and when he did Roy was rolling with the punches that landed to make them have barely any affect on him and he was out of the way right after, it was a cat and mouse game with the mouse throwing fast shots but not anything damaging and the cat trying to throw hard shots and coming up way short. Ruiz never landed a shot that would ko someone in that fight that's why he was frustrated the entire time, Roy didn't let him. Had he, i'm pretty sure it would've been over for Roy. Toney was lying out of his ass, you should know that, he was only talking upset because he beat Ruiz and lost a decision to Peter who he had a big feud with. Peter rocked Toney numerous times while Ruiz never really had him in trouble, that's obvious.

Ruiz is also crap and this coming from a fellow Rican. He was successful with his power at times and other times hitting and holding and getting away with it. People will forget him in a matter of a few years when he retires. Though he did get robbed against Valuev whose an even bigger bum.

We will have to agree to disagree because it won't ever be proven being that Roy can't go back in time and be his old self so we know. It was fun but i'm definately done with this thread, it's been way too long! :wavesmile:

Punk Ass
09-25-2006, 08:00 PM
One last note. The same thing the happend to RJJ happend to Mildrick Taylor

leelandk
09-26-2006, 03:13 AM
I'd have to give the edge to RJJ in his prime on a p4p scale. But I think history will remember PBF as being the greater fighter. PBF hasn't lost a fight and is still in his prime. But when Roy was in his prime, he not only didn't lose fights, he didn't even lose rounds to most fighters.