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mcdev88
09-23-2008, 07:45 PM
who do you say is the NL MVP?

i pick Albert Pujols.



look at some stats here

League Leaders | MLB.com: Stats (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/league_leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=NL&statType=1&sortByStat=HR&timeSubFrame3=&timeSubFrame=2008&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1)

bigsmooth696969
09-26-2008, 03:12 AM
I think Hanley Ramirez and David Wright should be included. Ramirez is a 5 tool player. His RBI's are low because he gets pitched around constantly. Wright is also a 5 tool player and is the ehart and soul of the Mets. Most Valuable? I think Manny is the most valuable to LA than anyone else. You see LA before Manny and look at them now, in the playoffs. He won't win though because he only has 50 or so games in the NL.

Nebraska
09-26-2008, 07:52 PM
I think it's between Man-Ram and "The Hebrew Hammer". I like Howard, and his power numbers are sick, but his batting average (currently at .248) is atrocious. Roger Maris hit .269 in 1961, that is currently the lowest batting average of an MVP winner in MLB history. Howard is hitting 21 points lower than that, and he isn't setting the homerun record. I don't think he should be seriously considered, despite his great power numbers.

bigsmooth696969
09-27-2008, 03:44 AM
I think it's between Man-Ram and "The Hebrew Hammer". I like Howard, and his power numbers are sick, but his batting average (currently at .248) is atrocious. Roger Maris hit .269 in 1961, that is currently the lowest batting average of an MVP winner in MLB history. Howard is hitting 21 points lower than that, and he isn't setting the homerun record. I don't think he should be seriously considered, despite his great power numbers.

Are you serious? I hope this is a joke because there is no way Manny or Ryan Braun (LMAO)win. Pujols has it all but in the bag. The award is most valuable to the team. CC is more valuable to the Brewers than Ryan Braun.

Mac
09-27-2008, 04:09 AM
Hanley Ramirez isn't even the most valuable player on his team, that is Cantu. Howard shitting under .250 and has an ungodly amount of strikeouts. Manny has only been in the NL for around 2 months.

Pujols is by far the NL MVP. He doesn't strike out, pitchers are scared of him and he had what should have been a sub .500 ball club in the race for most of the year. Besides the fact that he is a gold glove defender. The only other person that should be considered that knows what a glove is for id David Wright.

bigsmooth696969
09-27-2008, 04:21 AM
Hanley Ramirez isn't even the most valuable player on his team, that is Cantu. Howard shitting under .250 and has an ungodly amount of strikeouts. Manny has only been in the NL for around 2 months.

Pujols is by far the NL MVP. He doesn't strike out, pitchers are scared of him and he had what should have been a sub .500 ball club in the race for most of the year. Besides the fact that he is a gold glove defender. The only other person that should be considered that knows what a glove is for id David Wright.

How do you figure Cantu is more valuable than Ramirez b/c Hanley has more Runs, HR's, SB's, and a 20 point higher AVG and 1 less error. Whats your logic on this?

Mac
09-27-2008, 05:06 PM
How do you figure Cantu is more valuable than Ramirez b/c Hanley has more Runs, HR's, SB's, and a 20 point higher AVG and 1 less error. Whats your logic on this?

He's been more consistant than Hanley, and most of the Marlins were upset that Hanley was named MVP of the team by the Florida press instead of him.

Also, how the fuck do you put Delgado in that poll over David Wright?

Nebraska
09-27-2008, 10:33 PM
Are you serious? I hope this is a joke because there is no way Manny or Ryan Braun (LMAO)win. Pujols has it all but in the bag. The award is most valuable to the team. CC is more valuable to the Brewers than Ryan Braun.

Dead serious, how do you figure Pujols has it "in the bag"? Ludwick has been more valuable to the Cardinals this year, than Pujols has been. CC? Come on, he pitches every fifth day. Pitchers aren't not MVP's, that's why they created the Cy Young Award. Plus, if CC is more valuable, why did you make Braun one of the choices? He is carrying his team to the playoffs, just like Manny did with the Dodgers. An MVP puts up big numbers in big situations, and helps his team be successful. A-Rod winning for Texas doesn't happen a lot, so don't cite that as an example. It should be between Braun and Manny.

bigsmooth696969
09-28-2008, 04:10 AM
Dead serious, how do you figure Pujols has it "in the bag"? Ludwick has been more valuable to the Cardinals this year, than Pujols has been. CC? Come on, he pitches every fifth day. Pitchers aren't not MVP's, that's why they created the Cy Young Award. Plus, if CC is more valuable, why did you make Braun one of the choices? He is carrying his team to the playoffs, just like Manny did with the Dodgers. An MVP puts up big numbers in big situations, and helps his team be successful. A-Rod winning for Texas doesn't happen a lot, so don't cite that as an example. It should be between Braun and Manny.

Look a little closer and you will see I didn't make the poll smarty pants! Ludwick more valuable to the Cards than Pujols? LMFAO!!!!! You obviously don't understand baseball if you think that! Hmmmm, who would you rather pitch to in a tie game needing a hit to win? I bet no team in baseball pitches to Pujols because he is better! Better clutch hitter, higer average, more consistant, better leader, he is irreplacable! Where were the Brewers before CC? Yeah, 8 games out. CC goes 8-2 with an ERA in the low 2's and 4 CG's and they are tied for the Wild Card. I bet Braun isn't even top 5 when the vote comes out. Hell, I'll say it right now, Pujols will have ATLEAST 60% of the 1st place votes if not 70%. Manny only has 50 or so games in the NL. He isn't going to win although I think he and CC are both deserving. So its between Pujols, Delgado, Wright, Howard, and maybe Utley or someone else. Pujols wins going away.

So Mac, what is your source on this Cantu/Ramirez Florida press story? I looked all over Florida newspaper websites and found nothing. Also, I didn't make this poll but if you look at Delgado's numbers, he and Wright are both deserving to be in this discussion. If you noticed in my earlier posts, I am the one who said Wright should be included.

Mac
09-28-2008, 10:18 PM
Look a little closer and you will see I didn't make the poll smarty pants! Ludwick more valuable to the Cards than Pujols? LMFAO!!!!! You obviously don't understand baseball if you think that! Hmmmm, who would you rather pitch to in a tie game needing a hit to win? I bet no team in baseball pitches to Pujols because he is better! Better clutch hitter, higer average, more consistant, better leader, he is irreplacable! Where were the Brewers before CC? Yeah, 8 games out. CC goes 8-2 with an ERA in the low 2's and 4 CG's and they are tied for the Wild Card. I bet Braun isn't even top 5 when the vote comes out. Hell, I'll say it right now, Pujols will have ATLEAST 60% of the 1st place votes if not 70%. Manny only has 50 or so games in the NL. He isn't going to win although I think he and CC are both deserving. So its between Pujols, Delgado, Wright, Howard, and maybe Utley or someone else. Pujols wins going away.

So Mac, what is your source on this Cantu/Ramirez Florida press story? I looked all over Florida newspaper websites and found nothing. Also, I didn't make this poll but if you look at Delgado's numbers, he and Wright are both deserving to be in this discussion. If you noticed in my earlier posts, I am the one who said Wright should be included.
As far as the Hanley/Cantu thing I honestly can't remember where i saw it, I have a lot of down time at work so I'm constantly on the net. It may have been on Yahoo, but I can't be sure, I will try to find it.

As far as Delgado/Wright, I wasn't calling you out on that, I was calling out the person who made the poll.

@NebraskaMMAfan-No way Ludwick is more valuable than Pujols, that's why you can't just pick based on stats. Ludwick had a tremendous year, don't get me wrong, but he was very streaky and up and down. He would get hot then go into a slump. Pujols was consitent all the way through, plus Pujols is the big reason Ludwick did so well. When Ludwick batted 2nd he would get a steady diet of fast balls because Pujols was coming up next, when he batted 4th, they would pitch around Pujols and forced to pitch to Ludwick.

Pujols made a very mediocre team play over .500 ball. Pujols is the only guy that was in the NL for the whole season that opposing managers worry about every time he's at the plate.

bigsmooth696969
09-29-2008, 12:15 AM
As far as the Hanley/Cantu thing I honestly can't remember where i saw it, I have a lot of down time at work so I'm constantly on the net. It may have been on Yahoo, but I can't be sure, I will try to find it.

As far as Delgado/Wright, I wasn't calling you out on that, I was calling out the person who made the poll.

@NebraskaMMAfan-No way Ludwick is more valuable than Pujols, that's why you can't just pick based on stats. Ludwick had a tremendous year, don't get me wrong, but he was very streaky and up and down. He would get hot then go into a slump. Pujols was consitent all the way through, plus Pujols is the big reason Ludwick did so well. When Ludwick batted 2nd he would get a steady diet of fast balls because Pujols was coming up next, when he batted 4th, they would pitch around Pujols and forced to pitch to Ludwick.

Pujols made a very mediocre team play over .500 ball. Pujols is the only guy that was in the NL for the whole season that opposing managers worry about every time he's at the plate.


Don't worry about it Mac. I hear NFL shit all the time working with the Bengals and 95% of it I never hear get reported.

Nebraska
09-29-2008, 01:59 AM
My whole argument was shot down by the very guy I was defending. Braun called CC the Brewers MVP, despite him (Braun) hitting the bomb that put them in the playoffs.

Pujols is a great player, one of the best in the game, but if he wins they need to rename this award. Hitting .356/37/115 for a team that finishes in 4th place does not equal the value that hitting .250(yuk)/48/146 for a division winner, or .396/17/53 in 53 VERY meaningful games, or hitting clutch homeruns combined with a .285/37/106 on a playoff team. Pujols should be in the conversation, but he shouldn't be ahead of guys like Howard, Manny, and Braun. They put up big numbers, and carried their teams to the playoffs. That matters when we're talking about value. Don't agree with me, fine. Would you believe Albert himself?


"I see it this way: Someone who doesn't take his team to the playoffs doesn't deserve to win the MVP,"

SportingNews.com - Your expert source for MLB Baseball stats, scores, standings, blogs and fantasy news from MLB Baseball columnists (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1405504)

bigsmooth696969
09-29-2008, 03:27 AM
My whole argument was shot down by the very guy I was defending. Braun called CC the Brewers MVP, despite him (Braun) hitting the bomb that put them in the playoffs.

Pujols is a great player, one of the best in the game, but if he wins they need to rename this award. Hitting .356/37/115 for a team that finishes in 4th place does not equal the value that hitting .250(yuk)/48/146 for a division winner, or .396/17/53 in 53 VERY meaningful games, or hitting clutch homeruns combined with a .285/37/106 on a playoff team. Pujols should be in the conversation, but he shouldn't be ahead of guys like Howard, Manny, and Braun. They put up big numbers, and carried their teams to the playoffs. That matters when we're talking about value. Don't agree with me, fine. Would you believe Albert himself?



SportingNews.com - Your expert source for MLB Baseball stats, scores, standings, blogs and fantasy news from MLB Baseball columnists (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1405504)

So CC's pitching performance on 3 days rest 3 times in a row means nothing compared to a guy hitting 1 HR??? The award is called Most Valuable Player, not Most Valuable Player on a playoff team. Without Pujols, the Cardinals are 10-20 games under .500 easy. Pujols is the Cardinals! He is the team! Look at all the years Bonds won it. They didn't make the playoffs all those years but he was by far the best player in baseball. To say they don't deserve it because their team is not in the playoffs is rediculous. The Brewers, Mets, and Phillies all have better overall teams than St Louis too.

Nebraska
09-29-2008, 04:21 AM
So CC's pitching performance on 3 days rest 3 times in a row means nothing compared to a guy hitting 1 HR???

Did I say CC's performance meant nothing? Can you describe the situation for me, when Braun hit the homerun? To me it looked like the score was tied in bottom of the 8th with two outs and one on, with 26 years of playoff absence on the line. Clutch situation?


The award is called Most Valuable Player, not Most Valuable Player on a playoff team.

Exactly, it's called Most VALUEable Player, not Most Feared Player, not Most Outstanding Player. Value needs to translate into team success to give credibility to the word "value".


Without Pujols, the Cardinals are 10-20 games under .500 easy. Pujols is the Cardinals! He is the team!

What was Pujols' era this year?

bigsmooth696969
09-29-2008, 05:15 AM
Did I say CC's performance meant nothing? Can you describe the situation for me, when Braun hit the homerun? To me it looked like the score was tied in bottom of the 8th with two outs and one on, with 26 years of playoff absence on the line. Clutch situation?



Exactly, it's called Most VALUEable Player, not Most Feared Player, not Most Outstanding Player. Value needs to translate into team success to give credibility to the word "value".



What was Pujols' era this year?

WTF you talkin about Pujol's ERA???? I said the team, without Pujols would be between 10 and 20 games under .500! How is that hartd to understand?

Value??? Pujols is most valuable to StLouis. He is the reason they were 10 games over .500 instead of being bad like they were projected.

Mac
09-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Without Pujols the Cards are 20 games worse than they finished, without a doubt. The funny thing about your Pujols quote, he said that the year he got snubbed for Ryan Howard who won the MVP for a non playoff bound team.

This talk about CC being MVP is retarded, not only does the guy only pitch every 5 days but he came over in the last 2 months of the season, he pitched in what 15-16 games for Milwaukee? That's not even 10% of their games for the entire season, how can that even remotely get you an MVP?

bigsmooth696969
09-29-2008, 05:36 PM
Without Pujols the Cards are 20 games worse than they finished, without a doubt. The funny thing about your Pujols quote, he said that the year he got snubbed for Ryan Howard who won the MVP for a non playoff bound team.

This talk about CC being MVP is retarded, not only does the guy only pitch every 5 days but he came over in the last 2 months of the season, he pitched in what 15-16 games for Milwaukee? That's not even 10% of their games for the entire season, how can that even remotely get you an MVP?

No, I meant CC was the MVP of the Brewers! 11-2 with 5 CG and 4 SHO's. He clearly was what they needed to make the playoffs.

Mac
09-29-2008, 06:13 PM
No, I meant CC was the MVP of the Brewers! 11-2 with 5 CG and 4 SHO's. He clearly was what they needed to make the playoffs.

He put them in there for sure, but he didn't get them there, they were in the race before he came over. Best in season trade, you could argue between him and Manny, I would say CC, but MVP, no way. Just the final piece of the puzzle.

the way I see it:

1. Pujols
2. Braun-slight edge over Wright because he came up big in clutch stuations
3. Wright-tough because his glove is so much better than Braun's
4. Berkman
5. Howard

thedon17
09-29-2008, 06:55 PM
I don't think anyone stuck out this year but I agree CC has a great shot. This award was so much easier when Bonds was playing :)

bigsmooth696969
09-29-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't think anyone stuck out this year but I agree CC has a great shot. This award was so much easier when Bonds was playing :)

Yeah, the sad thing is, I'd take Bonds NOW over 90% of players today.

mcdev88
09-29-2008, 09:31 PM
if you take pujols off the cards who do you have to be the big bat??? nobody.

if you take wright or delgado you still have reyes and beltran there.

also if you take away howard there is still rollins, utley, burrell.

thedon17
09-29-2008, 10:19 PM
So a player is penalized because he has better players on the team?? The MVP is an individual award, not team.

Let's give it to Pujols because his team sucks more. Using that logic, there would never be a Yankee MVP. The award should to based on pure #'s, nothing else.

Nebraska
09-30-2008, 12:55 AM
if you take pujols off the cards who do you have to be the big bat??? nobody.

Ryan Ludwick: .299, 37 hr (tied with Pujols), 113 rbi (3 behind Pujols), 104 r (4 more than Pujols).

Troy Glaus: .270, 27 hr, 99 rbi.

Why are these numbers getting ignored? Ankiel hit 25 bombs, Molina was a .300+ hitting catcher. Wainwright (when healthy), Wellemeyer, Lohse, and Looper all pitched well this season. Pujols is the unquestioned leader of that team, but he isn't the whole team, and he wasn't doing it alone this year. Just because the names aren't popular, doesn't mean they can't produce.

EDIT: I would like to add more to this. Using Glaus' 27/99 as the bar, only two teams in all of baseball had three players hit at least 27 bombs and drive in at least 99 runs. The Mets (Wright, Delgado, Beltran) were one of them, and obviously the Cardinals (Pujols, Ludwick, Glaus) were the other. In conclusion, this myth that Pujols is doing it by himself has no credibility.

bigsmooth696969
09-30-2008, 04:00 AM
Ryan Ludwick: .299, 37 hr (tied with Pujols), 113 rbi (3 behind Pujols), 104 r (4 more than Pujols).

Troy Glaus: .270, 27 hr, 99 rbi.

Why are these numbers getting ignored? Ankiel hit 25 bombs, Molina was a .300+ hitting catcher. Wainwright (when healthy), Wellemeyer, Lohse, and Looper all pitched well this season. Pujols is the unquestioned leader of that team, but he isn't the whole team, and he wasn't doing it alone this year. Just because the names aren't popular, doesn't mean they can't produce.

EDIT: I would like to add more to this. Using Glaus' 27/99 as the bar, only two teams in all of baseball had three players hit at least 27 bombs and drive in at least 99 runs. The Mets (Wright, Delgado, Beltran) were one of them, and obviously the Cardinals (Pujols, Ludwick, Glaus) were the other. In conclusion, this myth that Pujols is doing it by himself has no credibility.


How many season has Ludwick produced? 1!!! His stats are directly attributed to Pujols batting behind him. Glaus by his power and RBI numebrs had an average season for him. If you include Ankiel I will laugh my ass off because he is nothing more than an average MLB outfielder with a killer gun.

Take Braun off the Brewers and you have Hart-.268/20/91 Fielder-.276/34/102 and Hardy-.283/24/74. Also, Cameron had 25/70 and another gold glove calibur season in the field. Bill Hall had a horrible year and still went 15/55 so gimme a break on who is more valuable.

Nebraska
09-30-2008, 05:11 AM
How many season has Ludwick produced? 1!!! His stats are directly attributed to Pujols batting behind him.

Ludwick had a breakout year, therefore it doesn't really count? I see, and you should at least do some research on this subject, instead of just using exclamation points to drive home your response. If you did the research, you'll see that Ludwick was hitting right behind Pujols (not the other way around) for the majority of the year. 20 of his homeruns and 59 of his rbi came from the 4-hole. Pujols hit in the 3-spot, with the exception of 2 at-bats.


Glaus by his power and RBI numebrs had an average season for him.

Your point? He still would've been the 3rd best run producer on the Brewers just like he was for the Cardinals.


If you include Ankiel I will laugh my ass off because he is nothing more than an average MLB outfielder with a killer gun.

...and 25 homers in only 120 games.


Take Braun off the Brewers and you have Hart-.268/20/91 Fielder-.276/34/102 and Hardy-.283/24/74. Also, Cameron had 25/70 and another gold glove calibur season in the field. Bill Hall had a horrible year and still went 15/55 so gimme a break on who is more valuable.

This is where I wanted you to go, so let's break it down. Oh, and we're not going to use the names of their (Pujols and Braun's) teammates. Hall and Cameron hit .225 and .243 respectively. They are hindering the offense more than they are helping it, so I'm discluding them for your sake.

Player 1a: .299/37/113 <--- edge

Player 2a: .276/34/102

Player 1b: .270/27/99 <--- edge

Player 2b: .268/20/91

Player 1c: .264/25/71

Player 2c: .283/24/74 <--- edge

Player 1a and 1b are Ludwick and Glaus, Player 2c is J.J. Hardy. The edge goes to the Cardinal boppers.

Also, Ryan Braun is the only major leaguer with at least 145 games played, that hasn't committed an error this season.

bigsmooth696969
09-30-2008, 04:32 PM
Ludwick had a breakout year, therefore it doesn't really count? I see, and you should at least do some research on this subject, instead of just using exclamation points to drive home your response. If you did the research, you'll see that Ludwick was hitting right behind Pujols (not the other way around) for the majority of the year. 20 of his homeruns and 59 of his rbi came from the 4-hole. Pujols hit in the 3-spot, with the exception of 2 at-bats.



Your point? He still would've been the 3rd best run producer on the Brewers just like he was for the Cardinals.



...and 25 homers in only 120 games.



This is where I wanted you to go, so let's break it down. Oh, and we're not going to use the names of their (Pujols and Braun's) teammates. Hall and Cameron hit .225 and .243 respectively. They are hindering the offense more than they are helping it, so I'm discluding them for your sake.

Player 1a: .299/37/113 <--- edge

Player 2a: .276/34/102

Player 1b: .270/27/99 <--- edge

Player 2b: .268/20/91

Player 1c: .264/25/71

Player 2c: .283/24/74 <--- edge

Player 1a and 1b are Ludwick and Glaus, Player 2c is J.J. Hardy. The edge goes to the Cardinal boppers.

Also, Ryan Braun is the only major leaguer with at least 145 games played, that hasn't committed an error this season.

In front or behind Pujols, it doesn't matter. They pitch around Pujols to face Ludwick. I'm not saying his season was not good or shouldn't count. He had a hell of a season but let me ask you this......Does he have that good of a season without Pujols batting infront OR behind him? Pujols has had better seasons without Ludwick batting infront or behind him. Who would YOU rather pitch to, Ludwick or Pujols? I am not gloating on Pujols because I hate the Cards and Pujols but the man is a beast and is the biggest and best beast on that team. I'm ending my arguements because I am starting to sound like my wife by nagging all my points over and over again.

mcdev88
11-07-2008, 06:36 AM
im sorry im just now getting to this. wheather in front or behind pujols they are pitching you strikes because they either dont want you on base for him or he is on base and dont want him to score. just think of where the cards are without him

Mac
11-07-2008, 05:19 PM
Ludwick's season is in direct relationship to Pujols. When you hit in front of Pujols you are being pitched to because they don't want anyone on in front of him. When you hit behind him they pitch around him to get to you. Either spot, you get a steady diet of fastballs, that's why Ludwick had a breakout year last year and why when healthy, Duncan had a breakout year the season before.

Pujols is hands down the NL MVP, the players themselves already voted him MVP, so I will have to take their word for it.

bigsmooth696969
11-18-2008, 05:09 AM
Oh I hate to say I told you so, but......I FUCKEN TOLD YOU SO!!!

Nebraska
11-18-2008, 11:47 PM
Oh I hate to say I told you so, but......I FUCKEN TOLD YOU SO!!!

Where are your after thoughts about the NL Cy Young?

Who got that one right? :dancingsmile:

bigsmooth696969
11-19-2008, 03:27 AM
Where are your after thoughts about the NL Cy Young?

Who got that one right? :dancingsmile:

First off, that wasn't directed at you or anyone FYI. Still don't see how he won the Cy Young? Webb and Santana and Sabathia had their teams in the playoff hunt and Webb had more wins and Santana left 6 games with leads only for the bullpen to lose. He could have easily had 22 wins. Lincecum only had it happen twice. Congrats though to him!