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View Full Version : Could Nog have found the LnP Killer?



joeodd2
05-31-2010, 09:41 PM
Many MMA fans, myself included, have complained about wrestlers using LnP to "grind" out victories for years. Now the Nog. Bros. have shown us how you can literally turn the tables on a wrestler. Sweep the shit out of him and make him keep working. Nog swept Brilz 2 times in round one, even taking his back briefly. He managed to keep the fight where he wanted it most of the round and score. I think if more fighters started using the sweeps that they learn when learning Ju-jitsu, then we could see more competitive and action packed fights. Imagine if Hardy repeatedly swept GSP? how different that fight could have been. Not saying it's easy, but so many guys don't even try. They look to lockdown their opponents, gassing their arms in the process. Where as Nog stayed calm and worked his sweeps. Take downs should count if you can do damage afterward, if an opponent sweeps you, then that take down should be negated and both fighters start from zero or the previous balance of credit given to the fighter who was winning before the takedown. I like the way the judges scored round one and if fighters are smart, they will see that fight as a wake up call to start working on sweeps.

Thor's Hammer
05-31-2010, 09:54 PM
It probably isn't that easy, like you said, but I do like the sweeps counting just like take downs. Sweeping Brilz would probably be a hell of a lot easier than sweeping GSP though.

joeodd2
05-31-2010, 10:00 PM
We won't really know until guys at least try to do something in their fucking guards. Elbows, sub attempts, sweeps, verbal abuse, shit man something! Wrestling isn't invincible, I think we will see wrestling go the way of Ju-jitsu and become a more beatable style on the ground. Ironically it was wrestling that really started to make ju-jistu more human, now it could be ju-jitsu/judo that could expose holes in wrestling. I'm very interested to see what UFC fighter or MMA fighter in general, saw that fight and started working on his sweeps. Nog's zen like concentration and calmness helped him eek out a win IMO.

braddahmatt
05-31-2010, 10:04 PM
noob jack this....

i think fighters should punch their opponent in the face more times than they get punched in the face... turns out its way more effective

Thor's Hammer
05-31-2010, 10:05 PM
I agree with you that they should try to do something. I've also never understood a fighter not going all out when they are clearly behind on the scorecards. It just seems fighters coast, even when they are behind, and just hope to catch their opponent instead of going for broke.

beau420
05-31-2010, 10:12 PM
If you get swept twice in the same round for trying to go to full mount you shouldn't go for full mount or go for someone's back.

Be like Randy, half guard for the win and stall. Safe and wins fights.

I would much rather watch both guys go for broke, but from a coaching or fighters point of view, Brilz shouldn't have done what he did. If he had just layed and punched him instead of trying to improve position, he would have easily won another round.

It sucks, but that is the way it is. Just another reason for rule changes. Aoki beating Hansen comes to mind. Hansen destroying Aoki the entire fight, then 15 seconds before the fight is over, he doesn't play it smart, looks to finish and get submitted. But that is also why fans love him so much.

Some people get screwed for trying to finish fights.

Bloodbeard
05-31-2010, 10:15 PM
Nog would get TKO'd trying to sweep better wrestlers than Brilz. Bader, Evans, and Jones off the top of my head.

the_dark_angel_4ever
05-31-2010, 10:17 PM
Brilz wrestling just isn't that good. I'm not claiming to be better by any stretch of the imagination, but effective wrestlers need to keep chest on chest in top control to prevent the guy on the bottom from shifting their hips to open up for the sweep. Brilz didn't do that very well and ended up on his back because of it.

joeodd2
05-31-2010, 10:19 PM
Guys getting "trapped" in half guard always amused me. It's call exploding your hips and getting your A-hole away from the floor. If I knew enough about Ju-jitsu got a black belt and started teaching (not gonna happen, but) I would tell guys to imagine that they are going to get raped on the floor by a 12 inch spiked dildo, if their A-hole faces it for more than 20 seconds. And for guys who don't work on the ground after that, I'd make them run around the gym holding a big black spiked dildo over their heads.

Mac
05-31-2010, 10:20 PM
noob jack this....

i think fighters should punch their opponent in the face more times than they get punched in the face... turns out its way more effective

Done, as Dikembe Mutombo would say, don't bring that weak shit in here.

TBEAR
05-31-2010, 10:22 PM
noob jack this....

I agree Noob Jack this....

It was a very close fight..one I had Britz winning...that is not here nor there. The fact is Nog did not look as good as everyone thought he would....and Britz looked better than everyone thought he would (including me)

This LnP, as you call it is bullshit. If you dont want to be held down, THEN LEARN TDD!!!!!!!!

Bottom line, If you think "Lnp" is bullshit , then learn how to stop it, cause the judges see it as control.

IMO that was Britz winning 29-28

Just my two cents on this thread...no disrespect meant to anyone!

Edit: Also sweeps are great but right now a takedown is better in the judges eyes than a sweep

dexter
05-31-2010, 10:45 PM
Slight problem with the original post - in that the Nogeuiras are totally awesome on the ground - other guys would attempt sweeps more if they thought they had any chance of succeeding.

I do get annoyed when guys just go 100% defensive like Hardy/daley did though, by using Eddie Bravo's lockdown (I know there are sweeps from this but they didn't even try to advance) and holding - hoping for the ref to pull them back up - Because even if he did, they'd be on their ass again in 10 seconds anyway.

Bloodbeard
05-31-2010, 11:10 PM
Edit: Also sweeps are great but right now a takedown is better in the judges eyes than a sweep

Doesn't it depend on the exact situation? If I get a TD, don't do anything, and get swept 15seconds later because I make an error in positioning then I didn't defend the sweep just like he didn't defend the TD. What is the difference? Especially if the sweep puts the other guy on top of me. That TD doesn't look so good then. Bad end result for me so why would I score more than the other guy for that? Also the fact that Nogueira actually won the fight shows that the sweeps he pulled were counted as much if not more than the TD's by 2judges.

joeodd2
05-31-2010, 11:22 PM
Doesn't it depend on the exact situation? If I get a TD, don't do anything, and get swept 15seconds later because I make an error in positioning then I didn't defend the sweep just like he didn't defend the TD. What is the difference? Especially if the sweep puts the other guy on top of me. That TD doesn't look so good then. Bad end result for me so why would I score more than the other guy for that? Also the fact that Nogueira actually won the fight shows that the sweeps he pulled were counted as much if not more than the TD's by 2judges.

THANK YOU! Exactly! It takes more skill to sweep a guy from the bottom than it does to trip somebody in a clinch. making the two equal isn't really fair, but if it helps stop LnP, then I'm all for it. I'm actually holding the guys who stay on the bottom, not doing anything accountable instead of the wrestlers who "control" from the top. You'd think some of these jake shields fans could appreciate that........






sorry calling you guys jake shields fans was kinda below the belt.......

joeodd2
05-31-2010, 11:25 PM
Slight problem with the original post - in that the Nogeuiras are totally awesome on the ground - other guys would attempt sweeps more if they thought they had any chance of succeeding.

I do get annoyed when guys just go 100% defensive like Hardy/daley did though, by using Eddie Bravo's lockdown (I know there are sweeps from this but they didn't even try to advance) and holding - hoping for the ref to pull them back up - Because even if he did, they'd be on their ass again in 10 seconds anyway.

Dudes didn't just come out of the womb and sweep their mom for Christ's sake! They practiced.....maybe not sweeping their Mom....but they practiced until they got better at it. If GSP can learn wrestling, guys spending years earning black belts in Ju-Jitsu can learn some sweeps. It's not impossible, maybe it just takes.....I don't know...a little effort?

braddahmatt
05-31-2010, 11:46 PM
It's not impossible, maybe it just takes.....I don't know...a little effort?

.... says the guy on the internet

joeodd2
06-01-2010, 12:03 AM
.... says the guy on the internet

fair enough.....some other "guy on the internet" judging me for being a "guy on the internet" :dancingsmile:

But what about Bas Rutten? is he just some dude on the internet too? Cause he's been saying pretty much the same thing for years now. Basically don't lay down like a dead fish and explode your hips. Maybe you should write him a nifty little letter questioning his expertise. Or better yet if you see him in person, you can educate him on how hard MMA is. Tell how that goes ok?

snakebite
06-01-2010, 04:22 AM
Yeah what the fuck is with this thread? I think that the way to beat a LnP wrestler, is too head kick him and knock him out before he takes you down. Anyone agree? Thats the secret

Mac
06-01-2010, 06:02 AM
Did he just use the, Hey, I know you are but what am I? defense?

pantomime horse
06-01-2010, 06:10 AM
Yeah what the fuck is with this thread? I think that the way to beat a LnP wrestler, is too head kick him and knock him out before he takes you down. Anyone agree? Thats the secret

...or a well placed knee to the face. Vastly underused, imo.

joeodd2
06-01-2010, 10:27 AM
Done, as Dikembe Mutombo would say, don't bring that weak shit in here.

Weak shit? Ya know what's weak? you male crush on a dude named Mayhem. The same dude who thinks Most MMA fans like you are idiots, who have no fucking idea what they are talking about. Glad to see you're keeping the standard.


Yeah what the fuck is with this thread? I think that the way to beat a LnP wrestler, is too head kick him and knock him out before he takes you down. Anyone agree? Thats the secret

This is parody right? You like some Tom Green dude highlighting the absurdity of some MMA fanboys right? I mean cause, you can't be serious with the shit you saying. I'd like to take you to that MMA trainers retreat and have you give a speech in front of all the top MMA trainers on how that shit would work........that would be a youtube moment.


...or a well placed knee to the face. Vastly underused, imo.

not all take downs are shots from the outside. Inside, outside trips. throws. double legs, single legs. Hell even dragging a guy down. Very hard to get space and throw a punch, let alone a knee under those circumstances. Sweeps represent a great opportunity to counter balance the points that a takedown artist relies on to win a fight. They also make the fights more exciting for fans, who pay good money to see.

braddahmatt
06-01-2010, 12:30 PM
Did he just use the, Hey, I know you are but what am I? defense?

I think he did

SimpleJack
06-01-2010, 06:28 PM
Weak shit? Ya know what's weak? you male crush on a dude named Mayhem. The same dude who thinks Most MMA fans like you are idiots, who have no fucking idea what they are talking about. Glad to see you're keeping the standard.



This is parody right? You like some Tom Green dude highlighting the absurdity of some MMA fanboys right? I mean cause, you can't be serious with the shit you saying. I'd like to take you to that MMA trainers retreat and have you give a speech in front of all the top MMA trainers on how that shit would work........that would be a youtube moment.



not all take downs are shots from the outside. Inside, outside trips. throws. double legs, single legs. Hell even dragging a guy down. Very hard to get space and throw a punch, let alone a knee under those circumstances. Sweeps represent a great opportunity to counter balance the points that a takedown artist relies on to win a fight. They also make the fights more exciting for fans, who pay good money to see.

If I have to merge another TRIPLE post, I'm tossing your shit like Mutumbo in his prime lol.

rivethead
06-01-2010, 08:17 PM
If I have to merge another TRIPLE post, I'm tossing your shit like Mutumbo in his prime lol.


Fuck that, I warned him yesterday about double posting and he triple posts today? He gets three days in the hole to learn how to use the forum.

rh

Mac
06-02-2010, 06:23 PM
Weak shit? Ya know what's weak? you male crush on a dude named Mayhem. The same dude who thinks Most MMA fans like you are idiots, who have no fucking idea what they are talking about. Glad to see you're keeping the standard.


Nuh-uh dude! Mayhem is my boy, he knows I'm his bestest fan and doesn't include me with those other idiot MMA fans. We're friends on MySpace and everything, he sent me a personal message saying I was his #1 monkey so there.....Nany-nany-boo-boo.

Seriously, don't get all butt-hurt because you made a shitty thread that wasn't good enough for the main forum. It happens, move on.

Death Beast
06-02-2010, 06:59 PM
I think the biggest problem with sweeps, etc. in scoring is that judges score fights for certain fighters depending on how familiar they are with them. If a BJJ guy lets someone take him down the whole fight and sweeps then they give the BJJ guy the round. If a wrestler gets taken down and ends up scrambling they still give the other guy the TD points. Same with a striker who gets taken down alot, they know thats not his gameplan so they count those TDs against him more than they would if they were a Jits guy. Kind of how they said Vera lost because Randy dominated cage control, with the logic being that "Randy likes people against the cage, Vera doesn't like being clinched against the cage, therefore Randy controlled the octagon" even though Vera controlled everything else.

braddahmatt
07-20-2010, 01:13 AM
Fuck that, I warned him yesterday about double posting and he triple posts today? He gets three days in the hole to learn how to use the forum.

rh

it puts the lotion in the basket!

Kimbo> Rampage
07-20-2010, 03:20 AM
ya buddy, they invented all the sweeps. :dry:

but yes i do get what your saying, they are very aggressive on the ground, even on the bottom and i really hope mma gets rid for the LNP fighters.