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Afro
12-26-2006, 06:26 PM
I was watching ESPN Who's Number One? the other day Top 20 Boxers

They had Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson on the list.. no Lennox Lewis, they mentioned honorable mentions... no Lennox Lewis. So they put two boxers he has beaten over him and dont even mention him at all.. and if you google Top Boxers of all-time you'll occasionally see a Mike Tyson or Evander, and Lennox is no where in SIGHT! Why is this? what was it about Lennox that leaves him out of these discussions but yet includes Boxers he has beaten?

Luis Cruz
12-26-2006, 07:29 PM
Because he beat them when they were past their primes. lol Lennox Lewis is overrated in most instances. I probably wouldn't mention him in a top 20 either, maybe honorable mention, but not a top list of fighters. He was around a while but yet no one knew him and that's simply because he didn't beat anyone or look for anyone until they past their primes then ran with a starved Heavyweight division. His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut. But Vitali is a nobody too and he won't be in anyones all time top list either. The only person who truly believed Lennox to be one of the all time greatest boxers is..........well Lennox. He was his biggest fan and wasn't shy about sharing it. He was an average boxer among a list of greats.

Punk Ass
12-26-2006, 08:30 PM
Because he beat them when they were past their primes. lol Lennox Lewis is overrated in most instances. I probably wouldn't mention him in a top 20 either, maybe honorable mention, but not a top list of fighters. He was around a while but yet no one knew him and that's simply because he didn't beat anyone or look for anyone until they past their primes then ran with a starved Heavyweight division. His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut. But Vitali is a nobody too and he won't be in anyones all time top list either. The only person who truly believed Lennox to be one of the all time greatest boxers is..........well Lennox. He was his biggest fan and wasn't shy about sharing it. He was an average boxer among a list of greats.

Well I think your being a bit too harsh. Lennox was a great fighter, but his lack of formidable opponents and tendencies to be a little lazy and get himself KOed, probably kept him off the list.

Holyfield was boxing at a time when their many very good HWs who were all in their prime, except for Forman who eventually won the title from a prime Micheal Moorer who beat Holyfield. Evander beat the man that ended Tysons rain, and had 3 amazing fights against Riddick Boe. Just to eventually KO Tyson. Holyfield was undeniably the best CW fighter ever and a legend at HW.

The reason Mike Tyson makes the list I think speaks for itself. He cleaned out the HW division, was the undesputed champion of the world,, having all 3 titles, the youngest champion ever, explosively fast, frighteningly powerful, boxing has never seen anything like a prime tyson and that's why everyone feared him.

Luis Cruz
12-26-2006, 11:03 PM
Well I think your being a bit too harsh. Lennox was a great fighter, but his lack of formidable opponents and tendencies to be a little lazy and get himself KOed, probably kept him off the list.

Holyfield was boxing at a time when their many very good HWs who were all in their prime, except for Forman who eventually won the title from a prime Micheal Moorer who beat Holyfield. Evander beat the man that ended Tysons rain, and had 3 amazing fights against Riddick Boe. Just to eventually KO Tyson. Holyfield was undeniably the best CW fighter ever and a legend at HW.

The reason Mike Tyson makes the list I think speaks for itself. He cleaned out the HW division, was the undesputed champion of the world,, having all 3 titles, the youngest champion ever, explosively fast, frighteningly powerful, boxing has never seen anything like a prime tyson and that's why everyone feared him.


I agree with everything you said but the point of my earlier post was because of what you said, he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them. He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country. He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield. I think Holyfield would've beat him 5 out of 5 times if they fought when Holyfield was in his prime. He struggled against him twice and that was a Holyfield starting his decline, not as bad as today obviously but he wasn't in his prime for about 4 years, maybe 5.

Punk Ass
12-27-2006, 06:32 AM
Agreed

Salvy_Mic
12-28-2006, 09:39 AM
Just to add what Luis and Hustla said, but part of the reason Lennox is not considered one of the all-time great heavyweights are the shocking losses he suffered at the hands of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Sure, he got his wins back, but those were fights he should have won dominantly the first time around. Sure, Ali was upset, but until his loss to Leon Spinks (when Ali was already declining), the only losses in his career were to another legend, Joe Frazier, and one of the more underrated heavyweight champs, Ken Norton, both of whom were in their own primes.

Dork8503
12-28-2006, 12:43 PM
yeah agree, i think lennox knew he was in trouble in the vitali fight and after that cut he got the win and figured in a rematch he would loose, so just retire, and i agree he fought to many people after there prime, like evander and tyson are just the ones i can think of right now and loosing to hasim was shit because hasim is not a good boxer imo i think he is shit, and oliver was shit too, but i still liked to watch lewis box,

nyckid
01-08-2007, 05:09 PM
I think it's because he's gay

Jones
01-10-2007, 04:23 AM
I agree with everything you said but the point of my earlier post was because of what you said, he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them. He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country. He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield. I think Holyfield would've beat him 5 out of 5 times if they fought when Holyfield was in his prime. He struggled against him twice and that was a Holyfield starting his decline, not as bad as today obviously but he wasn't in his prime for about 4 years, maybe 5.

LOL!!!! I think you should stick to the MMA section, Luis. You obviously don't know jack f*ck about boxing, let alone Lennox Lewis and the era he fought in. You know nothing. You weren't watching boxing back in his day when he was fighting. At least that's what it seems like by reading your ignorant post. Everything you mentioned in your post is completely false. 100% complete crap that you just posted.
Read up on your boxing history my friend, you'll learn something. Find some of those old Ring Magazines, visit some of the good boxing websites out there. You'll learn. And when you learn, you'll come back here and read your post and then smack yourself for how ignorant you were with your original post.

Jones
01-10-2007, 04:48 AM
Because he beat them when they were past their primes. lol Lennox Lewis is overrated in most instances. I probably wouldn't mention him in a top 20 either, maybe honorable mention, but not a top list of fighters. He was around a while but yet no one knew him and that's simply because he didn't beat anyone or look for anyone until they past their primes then ran with a starved Heavyweight division. His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut. But Vitali is a nobody too and he won't be in anyones all time top list either. The only person who truly believed Lennox to be one of the all time greatest boxers is..........well Lennox. He was his biggest fan and wasn't shy about sharing it. He was an average boxer among a list of greats.

Another ignorant post. Well done!!! LOL
If you actually watched boxing at the time and paid any attention, you'd have realized that Lennox Lewis was completely frozen out of the picture by the so-called champions and particularly by DON KING. Lewis refusing to sign with the devil cost him many opportunites, leading to being frozen out of the title picture. Just the same as Don King did to Tim Witherspoon and many other fighters who tried to find success without signing with King. That's how strong a grip Don King had in the sport of boxing. And as you see now, he f*cked over most if not all his fighters at one time or another, or completely robbed them of their money. Something Lewis protected himself from happening by not signing with King. Smart move you can say now that you look back at history. But not all the fault was with King, most of the fault was with the boxers themselves who wanted a low risk/high reward path to greatness. Now here's some history for you:
Mike Tyson had his chance to defend his WBC title against his mandatory challenger Lennox Lewis in 1996. Tyson paid Lewis $4 million in court to step aside so he could fight that bum Bruce Seldon who took a dive. Tyson then threw away the WBC title to avoid Lewis and the title went to vacancy which Lewis fought for against #2 rated challenger Oliver McCall. Tyson decided to duck Lewis so he could take on the supposedly shot Holyfield but Holyfield obviously wasn't as shot as Tyson had thought.
Riddick Bowe, same thing. Riddick beat Holyfield and unified the championship in 1992. His mandatory challenger was Lennox Lewis. Bowe, scared to death perhaps from their meeting at the Olympics when Lewis beat his ass, decided to duck his mandatory challenge and on public tv, threw the WBC title into a garbage can, and decided to fight the walking dead man Michael Dokes and completely shot Jesse Ferguson. Smart matchmaking! What a great champion he was! LOL!
Evander Holyfield, now here's a true warrior and a true champion who is too brave for his own good. So likely he would've fought Lennox Lewis when nobody else would. Not so!
Evander chose to fight anybody whose name wasn't Lennox Lewis, and despite Lewis offering him several times to get the fight made, Holyfield would have nothing to do with it. When there was no more Tyson, no more Bowe, and no more Moorer in the multi-million dollar picture, Holyfield decided to finally give Lennox Lewis a shot. But there would be a very hefty price tag.
Holyfield would price himself up so highly that it would almost become impossible for the fight to be made. Lennox agreed to take the far smaller cut just so that the unification fight could be made. But Holyfield over 2 years would not agree to anything less than $20 million. When Lewis gave him $20 million, Holyfield would then ask for $25 million. When given $25 million, Holyfield would then demand $30 million. This charade of negotiations would keep the fight stalled for 2 years until eventually Holyfield realized he needed to make money so he finally gave in and took the fight.

Now, as for Lennox Lewis beating these big names past their primes, I'd think you need to look at Tyson himself and wonder who the hell he ever beat that was this grand figure in the squared circle? His best win being over a 37 year old fat saggy Larry Holmes who came into the fight after a 2 year layoff and no tune ups whatsoever.
Most of Tyson's other comp being B- level at best. Certainly no prime Ali, Holyfield, Foreman level competition in his short era. And also having never avenged a single loss in his entire pro career. But of course, he was exciting to watch hence his popularity.
Lewis on the other hand, a non-american, actually a british boxer who normally isn't given the time of day by american fight fans. Just like as is today, when a non-american fights in the UFC and gets booed. And you wonder why?
If you take a close look, you will notice that Lennox fought the toughest fighters of his era, and his competition level was no worse than the likes of Tyson nor Holyfield. He fought them all, some of them at the height of their powers.
This would be comparable to say a Tito Ortiz who ruled 205 for a long time. When people look back, they say "Who the hell did Tito ever beat?" Well, he beat them back when they were running the division. Maybe they don't mean anything now, several years later.
That's the same attitude people have towards Lewis. But when you actually watched the sport at the time when the fights were happening and lived through that era, you have a completely different appreciation for these fighters.
Even many americans turned around and began giving Lewis his due when they realized that he was indeed the real deal and not just some pompous bum beater. He beat them as they came. He was the last man to unify the championship in November 1999. And he beat every top contender in his era.
Not much more you can do than that. But if you want to call him a bum and say he never fought anybody and lost to bums, go right ahead. That's the same ignorance shown by you that is shown on the UFC ppvs when those drunk fans boo all the fighters despite the fighters being impressive. Maybe it was Lewis' style that didn't work for you. But he sure as hell never took a path of soft touches. He went out and beat the #1 mandatory Vitali Klitschko before he retired, even despite being 37 years old and near the end of the road. If you think Vitali was a bum, you're dead wrong.

Jones
01-10-2007, 05:01 AM
I was watching ESPN Who's Number One? the other day Top 20 Boxers

They had Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson on the list.. no Lennox Lewis, they mentioned honorable mentions... no Lennox Lewis. So they put two boxers he has beaten over him and dont even mention him at all.. and if you google Top Boxers of all-time you'll occasionally see a Mike Tyson or Evander, and Lennox is no where in SIGHT! Why is this? what was it about Lennox that leaves him out of these discussions but yet includes Boxers he has beaten?

There aren't even 10 heavyweight boxers ahead of Lewis who accomplished what he accomplished in his 14 year professional career. So to say that he didn't even get a place in the top 20 is beyond absurd. Who did they list in the top 20? Hopefully not guys like Norton, Leon Spinks and them. They seem to have a hard on for anybody who ever gave Ali a tough fight. And it's always been known that ESPN has had an infatuation with Ali and the boxers of the 60s and 70s.

Jones
01-10-2007, 05:07 AM
Just to add what Luis and Hustla said, but part of the reason Lennox is not considered one of the all-time great heavyweights are the shocking losses he suffered at the hands of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Sure, he got his wins back, but those were fights he should have won dominantly the first time around. Sure, Ali was upset, but until his loss to Leon Spinks (when Ali was already declining), the only losses in his career were to another legend, Joe Frazier, and one of the more underrated heavyweight champs, Ken Norton, both of whom were in their own primes.

Difference is, at least Lewis went back in there and beat Rahman and McCall. Did Tyson avenge his loss to Buster Douglas? Did he avenge against Holyfield? Or even those tomato cans he handpicked but ended up losing to. You can't use one scenario to deny Lewis' place in history and then ignore that same scenario for Tyson. Lewis avenged his losses, Tyson didn't. But yet Tyson has a place in history, but ESPN decides to decline mentioning Lewis despite him winning the Olympic Gold medal, Commonwealth Heavyweight Title, 14 successful World Heavyweight title defenses, along with unifying the WBA, WBC, and IBF championships, and beating every mandatory contender in his career, and avenging every loss.
Whatever!

Salvy_Mic
01-10-2007, 08:06 AM
Difference is, at least Lewis went back in there and beat Rahman and McCall. Did Tyson avenge his loss to Buster Douglas? Did he avenge against Holyfield? Or even those tomato cans he handpicked but ended up losing to. You can't use one scenario to deny Lewis' place in history and then ignore that same scenario for Tyson. Lewis avenged his losses, Tyson didn't. But yet Tyson has a place in history, but ESPN decides to decline mentioning Lewis despite him winning the Olympic Gold medal, Commonwealth Heavyweight Title, 14 successful World Heavyweight title defenses, along with unifying the WBA, WBC, and IBF championships, and beating every mandatory contender in his career, and avenging every loss.
Whatever!

Lennox, is that you? Just kidding, but God damn, why are you so pissed off for Lewis' sake?

Anyway, I still stand by what I posted earlier. One problem I had with Lewis certainly wasn't with his fight selection (which, as you mentioned earlier, wasn't totally in his hands), but how he approached the McCalls and the Rahmans when he did fight him. I dunno, but slacking off your training because your overlooking someone just never appealed to me, and frankly, he deserved to lose those fights the first time around because of that attitude. I know he got the wins back (the Rahman one was sheer beauty, but the McCall rematch, as you know, must be about the most hollow win of Lewis' career).

Here's where I may have been a little persuaded by the information, and I do wanna thank you for bringing it up, but I forgot how old Lennox is and was around the time he fought Holyfield. They were pretty close to the same age, and if truth be told, neither of them were in their prime, just that Lennox had a lot more to offer at his advanced age then Holyfield did. Same with the Tyson fight.

I dunno if it's the American bias or anything, but another of the main reasons that Lennox doesn't make this mythical top 20 list is because somehow, he never quite captured the imagination of boxing fans like any of the guys on the top 20 list did. Lewis was always just a bit on the boring side, and none of his fights (asides from the Holyfield and Tyson fights and his two upset losses) ever made any big shockwaves in the boxing landscape. Lennox Lewis was just always there, the same way Floyd Mayweather is just always there.

Just to close out, I DO think Lennox Lewis was an exceptional boxer, and one of the best heavyweights ever. He could make a top 10 heavy list, but he'll never crack a top 5, in my opinion. The top 5 belongs to Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier (usually, sometimes Foreman). And a top 10 boxers of all time, any weight class, well, that for me is Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Leonard, Robinson, Pep, Chavez, Duran, and Hagler.

Jones
01-10-2007, 05:00 PM
Lennox, is that you? Just kidding, but God damn, why are you so pissed off for Lewis' sake?

Anyway, I still stand by what I posted earlier. One problem I had with Lewis certainly wasn't with his fight selection (which, as you mentioned earlier, wasn't totally in his hands), but how he approached the McCalls and the Rahmans when he did fight him. I dunno, but slacking off your training because your overlooking someone just never appealed to me, and frankly, he deserved to lose those fights the first time around because of that attitude. I know he got the wins back (the Rahman one was sheer beauty, but the McCall rematch, as you know, must be about the most hollow win of Lewis' career).

Here's where I may have been a little persuaded by the information, and I do wanna thank you for bringing it up, but I forgot how old Lennox is and was around the time he fought Holyfield. They were pretty close to the same age, and if truth be told, neither of them were in their prime, just that Lennox had a lot more to offer at his advanced age then Holyfield did. Same with the Tyson fight.

I dunno if it's the American bias or anything, but another of the main reasons that Lennox doesn't make this mythical top 20 list is because somehow, he never quite captured the imagination of boxing fans like any of the guys on the top 20 list did. Lewis was always just a bit on the boring side, and none of his fights (asides from the Holyfield and Tyson fights and his two upset losses) ever made any big shockwaves in the boxing landscape. Lennox Lewis was just always there, the same way Floyd Mayweather is just always there.

Just to close out, I DO think Lennox Lewis was an exceptional boxer, and one of the best heavyweights ever. He could make a top 10 heavy list, but he'll never crack a top 5, in my opinion. The top 5 belongs to Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier (usually, sometimes Foreman). And a top 10 boxers of all time, any weight class, well, that for me is Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Leonard, Robinson, Pep, Chavez, Duran, and Hagler.

I don't disagree with your points. I too am guilty of turning a blind eye to those boxers who never captured my imagination at all, but I would never disregard their skill level.
I feel Lewis did enough to get placement in a top 10 or 12 at the very least. To deny him top 20 is beyond ridiculous and is absolutely biased.
Another thing, sure his fights weren't the most impressive and he didn't have many wars like Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and the like. But to say he was boring, well I think if one had followed his career as it enfolded, they would have a very different opinion. One only needs to see a handful of his best fights to realize that he gave as good as he got when the fight was brought to him. Many of his fights did have placement in "Heavyweight Fight of the Year" discussions. From his all out wars with Ray Mercer and Vitali Klitschko, to his highlight reel KOs against Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Francois Botha, and Hasim Rahman, to his flawless top notch boxing performances against Tommy Morrison and David Tua. He fought the best fighters at the time when these fighters were at the very top of their game at the top of the rankings, with the exception of Tyson and Holyfield. Both Tyson and Holyfield, for reasons I already stated, chose to fight Lewis only for the payday and not for the inclination of unifying the titles, despite what they might sugarcoat their words with today if the topic came up. Why risk going after a 6'5, 250 man with that kind of power and skill level when you can easily go after lesser fighters for good money and stay champ? That's the thing about boxing's dirty business, fighters just pick and choose who the hell they want to fight. Same thing has been happening with Floyd Mayweather Jr who declined an $8 million payday against Margarito to take on the lesser Baldomir for just as much or a tiny bit less.
That's how boxing is run, and fans are blind to the backstage antics of these promoters who try to protect their investment, the same way Rock Newman tried to protect Riddick Bowe from risking his titles against Lewis when Lewis was his mandatory challenger. So they ducked Lewis and gave up the WBC belt to go and fight 2 old men who had no business even boxing at that stage in their lives. But the majority of fans bought the story as being that Lennox Lewis was safely tucked away and hidden while these big superstars were duking it out. It shows Luis Cruz's ignorance on the topic. He's the prime example of these types of fans who don't know what they're talking about because they never paid attention to these events as they enfolded back in the day.
Just like today in the UFC, what would life be like for Chuck Liddell if Tito had never fought him? We all know that Tito ducked Chuck and tried to use the friendship excuse in order to sabotage the fight and keep hold of his title despite Chuck being the rightful contender. And what would've happened if they had never fought? The ignorant Tito Ortiz fans would be going "Chuck ducked Tito!" When we know very well this is absolute rubbish!
That's how alot of fans are, they don't have a clue. That's reflective of Lewis' career where promoters tried to keep him away from their investments. Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe....all 3 men wanted nothing to do with Lewis, and both Don King and Rock Newman made sure that Lewis would not get in their way despite being the rightful contender for the belts that were held by these fighters. It has absoluely NOTHING to do with Lewis was tucked away safely as Luis Cruz alluded to, ignorantly. That's all I'm saying.

Luis Cruz
01-10-2007, 06:50 PM
I don't disagree with your points. I too am guilty of turning a blind eye to those boxers who never captured my imagination at all, but I would never disregard their skill level.
I feel Lewis did enough to get placement in a top 10 or 12 at the very least. To deny him top 20 is beyond ridiculous and is absolutely biased.
Another thing, sure his fights weren't the most impressive and he didn't have many wars like Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and the like. But to say he was boring, well I think if one had followed his career as it enfolded, they would have a very different opinion. One only needs to see a handful of his best fights to realize that he gave as good as he got when the fight was brought to him. Many of his fights did have placement in "Heavyweight Fight of the Year" discussions. From his all out wars with Ray Mercer and Vitali Klitschko, to his highlight reel KOs against Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Francois Botha, and Hasim Rahman, to his flawless top notch boxing performances against Tommy Morrison and David Tua. He fought the best fighters at the time when these fighters were at the very top of their game at the top of the rankings, with the exception of Tyson and Holyfield. Both Tyson and Holyfield, for reasons I already stated, chose to fight Lewis only for the payday and not for the inclination of unifying the titles, despite what they might sugarcoat their words with today if the topic came up. Why risk going after a 6'5, 250 man with that kind of power and skill level when you can easily go after lesser fighters for good money and stay champ? That's the thing about boxing's dirty business, fighters just pick and choose who the hell they want to fight. Same thing has been happening with Floyd Mayweather Jr who declined an $8 million payday against Margarito to take on the lesser Baldomir for just as much or a tiny bit less.
That's how boxing is run, and fans are blind to the backstage antics of these promoters who try to protect their investment, the same way Rock Newman tried to protect Riddick Bowe from risking his titles against Lewis when Lewis was his mandatory challenger. So they ducked Lewis and gave up the WBC belt to go and fight 2 old men who had no business even boxing at that stage in their lives. But the majority of fans bought the story as being that Lennox Lewis was safely tucked away and hidden while these big superstars were duking it out. It shows Luis Cruz's ignorance on the topic. He's the prime example of these types of fans who don't know what they're talking about because they never paid attention to these events as they enfolded back in the day.
Just like today in the UFC, what would life be like for Chuck Liddell if Tito had never fought him? We all know that Tito ducked Chuck and tried to use the friendship excuse in order to sabotage the fight and keep hold of his title despite Chuck being the rightful contender. And what would've happened if they had never fought? The ignorant Tito Ortiz fans would be going "Chuck ducked Tito!" When we know very well this is absolute rubbish!
That's how alot of fans are, they don't have a clue. That's reflective of Lewis' career where promoters tried to keep him away from their investments. Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe....all 3 men wanted nothing to do with Lewis, and both Don King and Rock Newman made sure that Lewis would not get in their way despite being the rightful contender for the belts that were held by these fighters. It has absoluely NOTHING to do with Lewis was tucked away safely as Luis Cruz alluded to, ignorantly. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not going to read your storybooks of your favorite boxer but i caught the end and the only person who actually didn't fight Lewis was Bowe and he was stripped for it. Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends. Holyfield was out there IN HIS PRIME. Just the fact that he could barely handle Holyfield well out of his prime shows he wasn't that skilled or that great of a fighter. I won't even comment on the Rahman fight, he shouldn't even be in the picture. There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10.

Luis Cruz
01-10-2007, 06:56 PM
LOL!!!! I think you should stick to the MMA section, Luis. You obviously don't know jack f*ck about boxing, let alone Lennox Lewis and the era he fought in. You know nothing. You weren't watching boxing back in his day when he was fighting. At least that's what it seems like by reading your ignorant post. Everything you mentioned in your post is completely false. 100% complete crap that you just posted.
Read up on your boxing history my friend, you'll learn something. Find some of those old Ring Magazines, visit some of the good boxing websites out there. You'll learn. And when you learn, you'll come back here and read your post and then smack yourself for how ignorant you were with your original post.

Whatever you want to debate you let me know. It didn't take me a book to explain myself. You're going off of things you THINK you knew about the inside of the game, so unless you were actually there and worked inside, PROVE IT.

Jones
01-10-2007, 07:16 PM
I'm not going to read your storybooks of your favorite boxer but i caught the end and the only person who actually didn't fight Lewis was Bowe and he was stripped for it. Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends. Holyfield was out there IN HIS PRIME. Just the fact that he could barely handle Holyfield well out of his prime shows he wasn't that skilled or that great of a fighter. I won't even comment on the Rahman fight, he shouldn't even be in the picture. There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10.

I was expecting this reply from you. Not only do you show complete ignorance in your original reply, but you show complete ignorance in your response while clinging onto an argument filled with "probably's". Probably this, probably that. You skipped over my post because it has too much truth for you to handle. But you still wanted to get your last word in while covering your eyes and scrolling onward. Ignorance! Kinda like the typical drunk UFC fans in attendance who boo all the action despite the skill level on display.
As again, this post of yours is filled with complete crap which I can throw back in your face with facts. I just gave you the full story on why Tyson ducked Lennox Lewis in 1996 but yet you stick to your theory of "Uh...Tyson probably didn't want to fight cause they were friends!"
Go back to the mma section. This topic and the sport itself is out of your league.

Jones
01-10-2007, 07:25 PM
Whatever you want to debate you let me know. It didn't take me a book to explain myself. You're going off of things you THINK you knew about the inside of the game, so unless you were actually there and worked inside, PROVE IT.

I was watching the sport since 86. I watched Lewis fight in the Olympics, I saw the prime days of these boxers. I saw the BS that went on between Bowe and Lewis, I saw the actions of Tyson refusing to meet his mandatory in 96, I saw Holyfield stall for 2 years in getting the Lewis fight made.
What more can I prove to you? I gave you the complete rundown. I didn't think I knew them, I knew them period. Don't try and play this "Prove it" game.
Try reading my original posts, it's all right there. Promoters manipulate the rankings and pay fees to the head of the commission in order to get a fighter shot up in the rankings. How do you think Don King managed to get a club fighter named McNeely into the WBA rankings? He paid off the boss of the commission with underhanded tactics. It's a big joke the sport is. It's not like tennis where a computer decides who you compete against.

Luis Cruz
01-10-2007, 09:08 PM
Ok and i've been watching this sport since the early 80s. PLUS i have a video library filled in my head of old fights that i've watched on espn classics and anywhere else i had access to them like the internet. No one, as far as i know that has better things to do, is going to sit for 2 freakin hours reading 1 PERSON'S posts. You're not that important, it has shit to do with anything that was written in it because i didn't read it like i told you the first time. You're nothing but a Lennox fanboy from what i see. lol But since you keep bringing it up i just now glanced over your first post so forgive me genius if i miss something. First of all i guess you knew nothing of Tyson and Lewis' history training together and their friendship, that wasn't pulled out of my ass, i have pics care to see? As a matter of fact i believe Tyson mentioned it at the end of their fight also, their history or at least some. This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap. The whole Tyson argument was meaningless so i didn't really read that part, Tyson didn't have great competition either and i seen him struggle against a decent boxer early in his career, he won by knockout eventually but struggled all the way until that point and actually seemed as he was going to lose. That's why i chuckle at times when people ask who would win between him and Ali in their primes. So that was just you adding something that didn't even apply to this. And since you brought it up, yeah Vitali was not great either. Better than his brother, yes but not a great fighter. He had size in a very mediorce division and he was handing Lewis his ass until they stopped it for the cut. And don't even get me started on Rahman and McCall, two less than stellar fighters he lost to. Mercer a very average fighter gave him all he could handle along with an OLD out of prime Holyfield. People might say but Lewis was old too, bullshit. Holyfield aged quicker because he fought wars. Plus Lewis like some people got better with age (Randy Couture) plus he had Manny takeover his training. He's not in my top 10 of all time and obviously i'm not the only one. I'm assuming he's your favorite boxer at how defensive you seem you need to get to defend him, that's fine but you need to chill out with the name calling bullshit, we don't roll like that around here. Feel free to bash all you want with facts, that's all good but leave it at that. I will say this, i was never a fan of his for whatever reason he just did nothing for me when i watched him fight, BUT had Manny trained him from the get go i truly believe he could've broke the top 10 of all time because of his skills. He was two different fighters pre Manny era and when Manny took over. He tightened up his game A LOT. You don't think i know boxing, stick around this forum.

Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Jones
01-10-2007, 09:46 PM
Ok and i've been watching this sport since the early 80s. PLUS i have a video library filled in my head of old fights that i've watched on espn classics and anywhere else i had access to them like the internet. No one, as far as i know that has better things to do, is going to sit for 2 freakin hours reading 1 PERSON'S posts. You're not that important, it has shit to do with anything that was written in it because i didn't read it like i told you the first time. You're nothing but a Lennox fanboy from what i see. lol But since you keep bringing it up i just now glanced over your first post so forgive me genius if i miss something. First of all i guess you knew nothing of Tyson and Lewis' history training together and their friendship, that wasn't pulled out of my ass, i have pics care to see? As a matter of fact i believe Tyson mentioned it at the end of their fight also, their history or at least some. This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap. The whole Tyson argument was meaningless so i didn't really read that part, Tyson didn't have great competition either and i seen him struggle against a decent boxer early in his career, he won by knockout eventually but struggled all the way until that point and actually seemed as he was going to lose. That's why i chuckle at times when people ask who would win between him and Ali in their primes. So that was just you adding something that didn't even apply to this. And since you brought it up, yeah Vitali was not great either. Better than his brother, yes but not a great fighter. He had size in a very mediorce division and he was handing Lewis his ass until they stopped it for the cut. And don't even get me started on Rahman and McCall, two less than stellar fighters he lost to. Mercer a very average fighter gave him all he could handle along with an OLD out of prime Holyfield. People might say but Lewis was old too, bullshit. Holyfield aged quicker because he fought wars. Plus Lewis like some people got better with age (Randy Couture) plus he had Manny takeover his training. He's not in my top 10 of all time and obviously i'm not the only one. I'm assuming he's your favorite boxer at how defensive you seem you need to get to defend him, that's fine but you need to chill out with the name calling bullshit, we don't roll like that around here. Feel free to bash all you want with facts, that's all good but leave it at that. I will say this, i was never a fan of his for whatever reason he just did nothing for me when i watched him fight, BUT had Manny trained him from the get go i truly believe he could've broke the top 10 of all time because of his skills. He was two different fighters pre Manny era and when Manny took over. He tightened up his game A LOT. You don't think i know boxing, stick around this forum.

Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.


>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.

Punk Ass
01-10-2007, 10:07 PM
>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.

I for one don't want to read these essays either. I think you make some good points and so does Cruz but please keep it short and to the point. Bad enough I have to read essays and books in college but on the internet I would like to keep it moving.

Luis Cruz
01-10-2007, 10:19 PM
>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.

Lewis and Tyson WERE friends, maybe not best friends or brothers but friends. It wasn't just a week thing. They were sparring when they were younger, when Tyson was just a teen. Tyson is a bipolar whack job, his outbursts are to everyone, that doesn't erase a past friendship. His talk before the fight was buildup in his own sick way like he's done with others. But you saying he was afraid of him being a 'known fact' is anything but a fact unless you are Mike Tyson or he said it to you or out loud. That's just your opinion that can't be backed up with fact.

The whole Holyfield breakdown did nothing, you keep going off about other people and in this instance it was Holyfield who you said was inconsistant and whatever else but then say he had one good fight left in him because he gave Lewis hell, yea let's talk favortism shall we? Others have lost, yes, but the people from the 60s and 70s whether you agree or not were of way higher caliber than the fighters of the 80s and today, THAT'S fact. Lewis had a voice he could've spoke out, kept calling people out, if it was indeed him who was being ducked, eventually they have to answer him. He didn't voice his disapproval too much, he just let management handle everything, that's not a guy in a hurry to jump in with the other 'best' out there. Oh and there is the case that he retired before taking the rematch with Vitali which is a fight he should've had. But like you used earlier for someone else, he priced himself out and made it loud and publicly clear that it would take a lot of money to get him out to do the fight. The money was offered Vitali didn't care what he made he just wanted the fight, but Lewis still refused.

This is nothing but a defensive battle on your part because that's your favorite boxer of all time being that you have yet to deny it even though it was said a couple times now and plus part of your email address does have this in it...... "british_badboy". Nuff said. Now you want to compare boxing knowledge, let's move on and discuss today's happenings as we see and as it happens. We can debate on history as well as it comes up, there's only one person i ever met that knew more than i did it and that's the guy i told you about in my last post. You'll change your tune about me knowing nothing about this sport real quick. lol

Jones
01-11-2007, 01:17 AM
Lewis and Tyson WERE friends, maybe not best friends or brothers but friends. It wasn't just a week thing. They were sparring when they were younger, when Tyson was just a teen. Tyson is a bipolar whack job, his outbursts are to everyone, that doesn't erase a past friendship. His talk before the fight was buildup in his own sick way like he's done with others. But you saying he was afraid of him being a 'known fact' is anything but a fact unless you are Mike Tyson or he said it to you or out loud. That's just your opinion that can't be backed up with fact.

The whole Holyfield breakdown did nothing, you keep going off about other people and in this instance it was Holyfield who you said was inconsistant and whatever else but then say he had one good fight left in him because he gave Lewis hell, yea let's talk favortism shall we? Others have lost, yes, but the people from the 60s and 70s whether you agree or not were of way higher caliber than the fighters of the 80s and today, THAT'S fact. Lewis had a voice he could've spoke out, kept calling people out, if it was indeed him who was being ducked, eventually they have to answer him. He didn't voice his disapproval too much, he just let management handle everything, that's not a guy in a hurry to jump in with the other 'best' out there. Oh and there is the case that he retired before taking the rematch with Vitali which is a fight he should've had. But like you used earlier for someone else, he priced himself out and made it loud and publicly clear that it would take a lot of money to get him out to do the fight. The money was offered Vitali didn't care what he made he just wanted the fight, but Lewis still refused.

This is nothing but a defensive battle on your part because that's your favorite boxer of all time being that you have yet to deny it even though it was said a couple times now and plus part of your email address does have this in it...... "british_badboy". Nuff said. Now you want to compare boxing knowledge, let's move on and discuss today's happenings as we see and as it happens. We can debate on history as well as it comes up, there's only one person i ever met that knew more than i did it and that's the guy i told you about in my last post. You'll change your tune about me knowing nothing about this sport real quick. lol


Don't worry about my email address. Just because it has 'british_badboy' in it doesn't mean I blow british fighters, otherwise I'd be on the Hatton, Bruno, Benn, Naseem bandwagon. But I'm not and never was. You're an american citizen are you not? Does that mean I consider you biased towards american fighters? Absolutely not, so why are you judging me by my email? Just because I happened to support Lewis? You know which other heavyweights I supported throughout my life? You know how many americans and non-americans I supported? It didn't mean a damn thing to me what their nationality was or their race.
You keep hanging on to this Tyson/Lewis friendship for whatever reason. Tyson could care less whether Lewis lived or died. Their friendship sure as hell isn't the reason why Tyson relinquished the WBC heavyweight title when Lewis was his mandatory. Team Tyson sensed other easier opportunities for easy money, why go after a hungry bigger fighter when you can get an easier one?
Lewis was vocal enough as was his team and the people who promoted him. Watch the HBO telecasts of some of his fights including the pre-show for Lewis vs Shannon Briggs. They're all saying it just like I am. All of them, Ron Borges, Mike Katz, all of them. The top heavyweights were afraid to risk fighting Lewis. I wouldn't call them cowards because cowards don't compete in a sport as brutal as boxing. I'd say they were closer to being businessmen, and obviously influenced by their teams and promoters who run the show like Don King.
As for Lewis/Vitali, that was a good hard fought tough fight by both fighters. Lewis could've taken a rematch but chose not to. He retired and has been retired since February 2004. It could be called cowardice or common sense, or perhaps he chose retirement because he couldn't perform at his best any longer. But does that erase the tough hard fought battles throughout his career? Does that brand him as a gutless coward just because he was heading for 38 and decided enough was enough?
And does that make Vitali brave despite Vitali pulling the same act against his mandatory Hasim Rahman?
Holyfield was a good fighter, he gave Lewis a tough 2nd fight.
But how far removed was the WBA/IBF champion Holyfield in 1999 compared to say 1997 when he whacked Michael Moorer around all over the ring in their rematch, or when he was KO'd by Bowe in 1995?
This comes down to opinion. And every fan will believe his or her opinion is the correct one.
You already finally admitted that Bowe plainly ducked Lewis. Soon enough, you'll admit the rest of my argument once facts are presented. Despite that I've already presented them. You seemingly want the facts from somebody who is alot more relevant and important than myself. LOL!
Maybe your buddy Harold will help you out. Since he is a 'friend' or was a 'friend' of many boxers, including Lewis. What's his last name? Harold what?

Luis Cruz
01-11-2007, 03:09 AM
Don't worry about my email address. Just because it has 'british_badboy' in it doesn't mean I blow british fighters, otherwise I'd be on the Hatton, Bruno, Benn, Naseem bandwagon. But I'm not and never was. You're an american citizen are you not? Does that mean I consider you biased towards american fighters? Absolutely not, so why are you judging me by my email? Just because I happened to support Lewis? You know which other heavyweights I supported throughout my life? You know how many americans and non-americans I supported? It didn't mean a damn thing to me what their nationality was or their race.
You keep hanging on to this Tyson/Lewis friendship for whatever reason. Tyson could care less whether Lewis lived or died. Their friendship sure as hell isn't the reason why Tyson relinquished the WBC heavyweight title when Lewis was his mandatory. Team Tyson sensed other easier opportunities for easy money, why go after a hungry bigger fighter when you can get an easier one?
Lewis was vocal enough as was his team and the people who promoted him. Watch the HBO telecasts of some of his fights including the pre-show for Lewis vs Shannon Briggs. They're all saying it just like I am. All of them, Ron Borges, Mike Katz, all of them. The top heavyweights were afraid to risk fighting Lewis. I wouldn't call them cowards because cowards don't compete in a sport as brutal as boxing. I'd say they were closer to being businessmen, and obviously influenced by their teams and promoters who run the show like Don King.
As for Lewis/Vitali, that was a good hard fought tough fight by both fighters. Lewis could've taken a rematch but chose not to. He retired and has been retired since February 2004. It could be called cowardice or common sense, or perhaps he chose retirement because he couldn't perform at his best any longer. But does that erase the tough hard fought battles throughout his career? Does that brand him as a gutless coward just because he was heading for 38 and decided enough was enough?
And does that make Vitali brave despite Vitali pulling the same act against his mandatory Hasim Rahman?
Holyfield was a good fighter, he gave Lewis a tough 2nd fight.
But how far removed was the WBA/IBF champion Holyfield in 1999 compared to say 1997 when he whacked Michael Moorer around all over the ring in their rematch, or when he was KO'd by Bowe in 1995?
This comes down to opinion. And every fan will believe his or her opinion is the correct one.
You already finally admitted that Bowe plainly ducked Lewis. Soon enough, you'll admit the rest of my argument once facts are presented. Despite that I've already presented them. You seemingly want the facts from somebody who is alot more relevant and important than myself. LOL!
Maybe your buddy Harold will help you out. Since he is a 'friend' or was a 'friend' of many boxers, including Lewis. What's his last name? Harold what?

You gave shit for facts. Your facts are you thinking you're some kind of inside guy knowing how people feel and the politics of boxing. Your guess is as good as any average joe boxing fan. Thus making this ALL opinions. Just like Lewis isn't top 10 IMO and probably is #1 on yours. Your fan, thats that. And yes i do think it has something to do with where you're from. I'm a HUGE Cotto fan and YES it is partially because we're both Puerto Rican, i tend to root for my own, aside from Ruiz. That don't mean i don't like other fighters, but having the same heritage does persuade people and if you deny it, you're lying.

I won't say my friend's full name until i see him, just outta respect for him. He probably won't mind but i just want to be sure. I could REALLY give two shits if you believe me or not about him but if you knew Lewis like you claim you should already know his last name. He wasn't just his 'friend', he helped train him, i believe mostly in the Poconos which is 45 mins from here at Manny's gym. Here's another hint, he boxed pro from 83-88 and was 19-1 with 15kos. Yea he is a lot more relevant than you, because the stuff he knows you couldn't possibly know unless you were on the inside and he has all kinds of pics he showed me to prove it as well.

Oh and i bet you are a HUGE Ricky Hatton fan as well. lol

Like i said before when there are other topics we'll see how much knowledge you have of this sport then, not just Lennox Lewis.

Jones
01-11-2007, 04:02 AM
You gave shit for facts. Your facts are you thinking you're some kind of inside guy knowing how people feel and the politics of boxing. Your guess is as good as any average joe boxing fan. Thus making this ALL opinions. Just like Lewis isn't top 10 IMO and probably is #1 on yours. Your fan, thats that. And yes i do think it has something to do with where you're from. I'm a HUGE Cotto fan and YES it is partially because we're both Puerto Rican, i tend to root for my own, aside from Ruiz. That don't mean i don't like other fighters, but having the same heritage does persuade people and if you deny it, you're lying.

I won't say my friend's full name until i see him, just outta respect for him. He probably won't mind but i just want to be sure. I could REALLY give two shits if you believe me or not about him but if you knew Lewis like you claim you should already know his last name. He wasn't just his 'friend', he helped train him, i believe mostly in the Poconos which is 45 mins from here at Manny's gym. Here's another hint, he boxed pro from 83-88 and was 19-1 with 15kos. Yea he is a lot more relevant than you, because the stuff he knows you couldn't possibly know unless you were on the inside and he has all kinds of pics he showed me to prove it as well.

Oh and i bet you are a HUGE Ricky Hatton fan as well. lol

Like i said before when there are other topics we'll see how much knowledge you have of this sport then, not just Lennox Lewis.



Harold Knight. Yes, now I know, Lewis' long time assistant trainer. There's a man who'll tell you the deal on Lewis. Show Mr.Knight your first two posts, Luis. Print it out but don't tell him that YOU wrote it. Just tell him it was from some anonymous internet guy cause he might slap you in the face for writing such junk. LOL!
He's going to address the points that you made. You're very own statements:

- "He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country."

- "he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them."

- "He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield"

- "His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut"

- "He was an average boxer among a list of greats."

- "Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends"

- "There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10."

- "This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap."

You can show Mr.Knight MY posts too if you like. I'm more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. I know I'm not perfect and sure, I could be wrong with some things. But we'll let Mr.Knight clarify everything for us. I just hope he doesn't play favourites. Afterall, he's not on Lewis' payroll anymore. LOL!!!!

Luis Cruz
01-11-2007, 04:17 AM
Harold Knight. Yes, now I know, Lewis' long time assistant trainer. There's a man who'll tell you the deal on Lewis. Show Mr.Knight your first two posts, Luis. Print it out but don't tell him that YOU wrote it. Just tell him it was from some anonymous internet guy cause he might slap you in the face for writing such junk. LOL!
He's going to address the points that you made. You're very own statements:

- "He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country."

- "he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them."

- "He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield"

- "His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut"

- "He was an average boxer among a list of greats."

- "Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends"

- "There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10."

- "This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap."

You can show Mr.Knight MY posts too if you like. I'm more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. I know I'm not perfect and sure, I could be wrong with some things. But we'll let Mr.Knight clarify everything for us. I just hope he doesn't play favourites. Afterall, he's not on Lewis' payroll anymore. LOL!!!!

You're 'LOL''s are disturbing for some reason. But i see you did some googling and found his name, otherwise you would've known already. I won't show him any posts, i'm going to ask him what he thinks of this topic and pretty much how Lewis's career played out. I'll see what he says and then show him these posts, whether he agrees or not. You make that last comment like you're already prepared to say "oh he's just saying that cause he don't know me and is friend's with you", looking for excuses already. He might agree with you and in fact i'm actually thinking the opposite in that he's going to be bias because of his relationship with Lewis and of course back him up, but he'll tell the truth on all the issues regardless. Oh and tell him i don't know my boxing, he'll be sure to give you a real life "LOL".

Jones
01-11-2007, 04:41 AM
You're 'LOL''s are disturbing for some reason. But i see you did some googling and found his name, otherwise you would've known already. I won't show him any posts, i'm going to ask him what he thinks of this topic and pretty much how Lewis's career played out. I'll see what he says and then show him these posts, whether he agrees or not. You make that last comment like you're already prepared to say "oh he's just saying that cause he don't know me and is friend's with you", looking for excuses already. He might agree with you and in fact i'm actually thinking the opposite in that he's going to be bias because of his relationship with Lewis and of course back him up, but he'll tell the truth on all the issues regardless. Oh and tell him i don't know my boxing, he'll be sure to give you a real life "LOL".


Why would have I known already Luis? Why would I have remembered Harold's name off the top of my head? Would you have remembered his name if you never knew him personally? Can you off the top of your head throw out all the names of the assistant trainers of the majority of heavyweight champs? Maybe I should read the Encyclopedia of Boxing, and learn everything there is to know and then come on here and act like Max Kellerman where I can even name the pets of every fighter who ever fought. Sorry, I'm not that interested.
Back to the subject, sure...have a chat with Knight and ask him for his thoughts. He can call my posts BS and consider you the smart one. But I highly doubt he's going to pat you on the back for your intelligent comments about Lewis being tucked away safely and waiting for fighters to get old before he made his move. And I sure don't think he's going to agree with you about Lewis not having a place in the top 20, other than an honourable mention.
For all I know, Knight will probably consider us both as being ignorant on the subject. Just as long as we can cut the confusion:)

Luis Cruz
01-11-2007, 05:00 AM
Why would have I known already Luis? Why would I have remembered Harold's name off the top of my head? Would you have remembered his name if you never knew him personally? Can you off the top of your head throw out all the names of the assistant trainers of the majority of heavyweight champs? Maybe I should read the Encyclopedia of Boxing, and learn everything there is to know and then come on here and act like Max Kellerman where I can even name the pets of every fighter who ever fought. Sorry, I'm not that interested.
Back to the subject, sure...have a chat with Knight and ask him for his thoughts. He can call my posts BS and consider you the smart one. But I highly doubt he's going to pat you on the back for your intelligent comments about Lewis being tucked away safely and waiting for fighters to get old before he made his move. And I sure don't think he's going to agree with you about Lewis not having a place in the top 20, other than an honourable mention.
For all I know, Knight will probably consider us both as being ignorant on the subject. Just as long as we can cut the confusion:)

You said his name like it just popped into your head and there was no searching involved, that's why i said that.

I'm anticipating a long indepth experience when i ask him about his thoughts. I'm also going to ask him where he ranks him on the all time list and if i think it's too high i'll debate it with him. And yes he'll for sure say things that no one knows unless they were associated with him. He's the only person i have ever come across that no matter what i say or bring up he's right there with me and knows exactly what i'm talking about. I usually lose people when talking history or about very yound up and comers, i have yet to lose him. When it comes to detailing an upcoming fight though, i have had better breakdowns on strategy and gameplans fighters should implement, i even managed to impress him. I'll let you know when we talk and what he says.

Jones
01-11-2007, 05:21 AM
You said his name like it just popped into your head and there was no searching involved, that's why i said that.

I'm anticipating a long indepth experience when i ask him about his thoughts. I'm also going to ask him where he ranks him on the all time list and if i think it's too high i'll debate it with him. And yes he'll for sure say things that no one knows unless they were associated with him. He's the only person i have ever come across that no matter what i say or bring up he's right there with me and knows exactly what i'm talking about. I usually lose people when talking history or about very yound up and comers, i have yet to lose him. When it comes to detailing an upcoming fight though, i have had better breakdowns on strategy and gameplans fighters should implement, i even managed to impress him. I'll let you know when we talk and what he says.

That'd be excellent. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me, it's a good chance for me to get some details from a man who played a big role in helping guide Lewis to the championship. He deserves much credit for his role. It's ignorant and I'll admit 'stupid' of me that I didn't take enough interest to know his name. Seeing as how instrumental he was in Lewis' success, I figured he would've gotten more attention. But then again, nobody in a camp gets attention outside of the head trainer. That man being Manny Steward whom I respect alot for what he's done in the sport. I guess the one positive about Lewis is he kept good people around him in his corner. I missed my chance in meeting Lewis when he came up here in Castlemore in 99. His mother lived here for a time, and Lewis used this area as his hangout for a short spell. He lived 25 minutes walking distance from me. I was up in Brampton, he was up in Castlemore. So from my house, I'd probably go down North Park drive, take a left on Torbram, and go straight. 6 minutes away by car. I met George Chuvalo though briefly. He went school to school deliering speeches on drug awareness. His personal story is definitely one to know.

Salvy_Mic
01-11-2007, 07:50 AM
Wow, this thread went from vitriol to civility in no time. I'm almost impressed, hah.

Damn, Harold Knight. Sadly, when Luis said Harold, I started thinking Harold Lederman. Silly me. Anyway, keep this up guys. I've got a bag of popcorn here, and am thoroughly entertained.

Luis Cruz
01-11-2007, 05:12 PM
That'd be excellent. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me, it's a good chance for me to get some details from a man who played a big role in helping guide Lewis to the championship. He deserves much credit for his role. It's ignorant and I'll admit 'stupid' of me that I didn't take enough interest to know his name. Seeing as how instrumental he was in Lewis' success, I figured he would've gotten more attention. But then again, nobody in a camp gets attention outside of the head trainer. That man being Manny Steward whom I respect alot for what he's done in the sport. I guess the one positive about Lewis is he kept good people around him in his corner. I missed my chance in meeting Lewis when he came up here in Castlemore in 99. His mother lived here for a time, and Lewis used this area as his hangout for a short spell. He lived 25 minutes walking distance from me. I was up in Brampton, he was up in Castlemore. So from my house, I'd probably go down North Park drive, take a left on Torbram, and go straight. 6 minutes away by car. I met George Chuvalo though briefly. He went school to school deliering speeches on drug awareness. His personal story is definitely one to know.


Now there's one thing i will openly admit, i never took an interest in his personal dealings like what he did outside the ring. That could definately change my take on him as A PERSON not fighter. If he was the kind of person who really want out of his way to help others, that means more to me in sports than their performance, i've preached that a lot of forums. Someone could be the greatest fighter in the world (Fedor) and not give two shits about anyone else and people will still love them. I won't, i think what they do outside is more important, like Rivera who just fought, great guy. Oh and i wasn't saying Fedor is that type of person i was just using him as a high caliber of an opponent. So if Lewis was that type of guy i'll have gained a lot more respect for him, but the thing that REALLY turned me off about him was the time he claimed to be the greatest Heavyweight of all time, i forgot what fight it was after, but that really got to me. Just like Floyd saying he's the greatest ever, even more so than both Sugar Rays, that's just disrespectful. Lewis didn't say all that but just calling himself the greatest ever was enough for me to tune him out.

Without Manny i don't think people would've even remembered Lewis, he was that much of an impact on him. Manny still as his gym 45 mins from me so i'm sure i'll be taking a trip up there if Harold can make it happen.

Jones
01-11-2007, 09:41 PM
Now there's one thing i will openly admit, i never took an interest in his personal dealings like what he did outside the ring. That could definately change my take on him as A PERSON not fighter. If he was the kind of person who really want out of his way to help others, that means more to me in sports than their performance, i've preached that a lot of forums. Someone could be the greatest fighter in the world (Fedor) and not give two shits about anyone else and people will still love them. I won't, i think what they do outside is more important, like Rivera who just fought, great guy. Oh and i wasn't saying Fedor is that type of person i was just using him as a high caliber of an opponent. So if Lewis was that type of guy i'll have gained a lot more respect for him, but the thing that REALLY turned me off about him was the time he claimed to be the greatest Heavyweight of all time, i forgot what fight it was after, but that really got to me. Just like Floyd saying he's the greatest ever, even more so than both Sugar Rays, that's just disrespectful. Lewis didn't say all that but just calling himself the greatest ever was enough for me to tune him out.

Without Manny i don't think people would've even remembered Lewis, he was that much of an impact on him. Manny still as his gym 45 mins from me so i'm sure i'll be taking a trip up there if Harold can make it happen.

I agree 100%. As you already know, I did have an appreciation for Lewis' boxing talent but he did have this bit of cockiness which was plainly visible, even to me. He did say some silly things and I definitely disagree with him if he feels he was the greatest of all time. Although it would be hard to fathom if he truly believed that considering how highly he praises men like Larry Holmes and his idol Muhammad Ali. Lewis ranked somewhere in the top 12, in the latter half. I never believed nor would I believe that he could ever beat a prime Larry Holmes or Ali over 15 rounds. I don't think he could've beaten quite a few heavyweights although I could give him a decent chance against a lot of them, but I'd make him the underdog.
Like I said, I did appreciate his skills and I watched almost all of his fights live on tv. And I did see a tremendous transition between the Lewis under trainer Pepe Correa and the Lewis under Steward. Without Steward, Lewis probably wouldn't have amounted to much, but I guess that's one for another debate. He did already show brutalizing power when he took Ruddock apart in 2 rounds so the power was always there. I think Manny can take Wladimir Klitschko all the way too depending on if Wlad has the desire. It's amazing how similar Lewis and Wladimir are in terms of their careers. Both Olympic gold medalists, both changing to Steward after bad defeats which were scored in 2nd round TKOs respectively(McCall and Sanders). Steward found great success with Lewis and he can do the same with Wlad I think.
As for Manny's gym, he lost Kronk didn't he and had to relocate? Too bad, Kronk really brought up some great fighter.

Luis Cruz
01-12-2007, 12:46 AM
I agree 100%. As you already know, I did have an appreciation for Lewis' boxing talent but he did have this bit of cockiness which was plainly visible, even to me. He did say some silly things and I definitely disagree with him if he feels he was the greatest of all time. Although it would be hard to fathom if he truly believed that considering how highly he praises men like Larry Holmes and his idol Muhammad Ali. Lewis ranked somewhere in the top 12, in the latter half. I never believed nor would I believe that he could ever beat a prime Larry Holmes or Ali over 15 rounds. I don't think he could've beaten quite a few heavyweights although I could give him a decent chance against a lot of them, but I'd make him the underdog.
Like I said, I did appreciate his skills and I watched almost all of his fights live on tv. And I did see a tremendous transition between the Lewis under trainer Pepe Correa and the Lewis under Steward. Without Steward, Lewis probably wouldn't have amounted to much, but I guess that's one for another debate. He did already show brutalizing power when he took Ruddock apart in 2 rounds so the power was always there. I think Manny can take Wladimir Klitschko all the way too depending on if Wlad has the desire. It's amazing how similar Lewis and Wladimir are in terms of their careers. Both Olympic gold medalists, both changing to Steward after bad defeats which were scored in 2nd round TKOs respectively(McCall and Sanders). Steward found great success with Lewis and he can do the same with Wlad I think.
As for Manny's gym, he lost Kronk didn't he and had to relocate? Too bad, Kronk really brought up some great fighter.

Nope he stills brings Wlad there to train at times.

kickbox
03-29-2007, 01:18 AM
I agree with everything you said but the point of my earlier post was because of what you said, he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them. He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country. He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield. I think Holyfield would've beat him 5 out of 5 times if they fought when Holyfield was in his prime. He struggled against him twice and that was a Holyfield starting his decline, not as bad as today obviously but he wasn't in his prime for about 4 years, maybe 5.

Tyson beat washed up boxers out of their primes just to let you know.he beat shannon briggs Vitali all the good fighters.

Punk Ass
03-29-2007, 02:56 PM
Tyson beat washed up boxers out of their primes just to let you know.he beat shannon briggs Vitali all the good fighters.


Why do you keep Tyson bashing? Tyson may have fought one or two Boxers out of their prime but you don't know what the fuck your talking about. Prime Tyson beat Prime fighters for their title. The only old fighter Tyson has fought that I can think of was Larry Holmes. Please stop saying dumb shit when you don't know what your talking about. You weren't even born when Tyson was in his Prime.

kickbox
03-29-2007, 11:21 PM
Why do you keep Tyson bashing? Tyson may have fought one or two Boxers out of their prime but you don't know what the fuck your talking about. Prime Tyson beat Prime fighters for their title. The only old fighter Tyson has fought that I can think of was Larry Holmes. Please stop saying dumb shit when you don't know what your talking about. You weren't even born when Tyson was in his Prime.

so you guys can say Tyson was out of his prime when he lost to Douglas and All the other fighters were in their prime when they lost to tyson?? wow just wow. My father was a boxing fan all his life dont argue with me cause my father knows these things. And lennox was out of his prime when he beat Tyson cause he only retired 3 years later so theres no excuse. Lennox beat fighters that would have sweeped the floor with Tysons era lmfao. so your argument is pointless. i just hate the facts everyone bashes on a foreign fighter like lennox but they never talk crapp about Tyson and hes overated!! Klitshcko would have been more of a challenge to Tyson if he fought him and probably would have beaten him too.

Punk Ass
03-29-2007, 11:45 PM
so you guys can say Tyson was out of his prime when he lost to Douglas and All the other fighters were in their prime when they lost to tyson?? wow just wow. My father was a boxing fan all his life dont argue with me cause my father knows these things. And lennox was out of his prime when he beat Tyson cause he only retired 3 years later so theres no excuse. Lennox beat fighters that would have sweeped the floor with Tysons era lmfao. so your argument is pointless. i just hate the facts everyone bashes on a foreign fighter like lennox but they never talk crapp about Tyson and hes overated!! Klitshcko would have been more of a challenge to Tyson if he fought him and probably would have beaten him too.

First of all, no one ever said Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Douglas. IMO, the reason he lost to Douglas was because tons of problems outside the ring that didn't allow him to focus on Boxing at the time. The same thing happend to James Toney when he was at LHW.

BTW, your father could also be wrong, I argue with older men all the time.

IMO, Tyson was never the same after being in jail for 3 or 4 years. When I saw him Box upon his return, he just didn't have the head movement or the accuracy of the Tyson in the 80s.

BTW, you can make an argument for Lennox, or the Klitschko Bros. beating a Prime Tyson, but they also outweighed him by 40lbs. To say Tyson was overated in his prime is just ignorant and shows it was way!! before your time. Boxing historians don't claim Tyson as one of the P4P best HWs for no reason.

halozero
03-31-2007, 11:29 AM
Wow, this thread went from vitriol to civility in no time. I'm almost impressed, hah....Anyway, keep this up guys, I've got a bag of popcorn here, and am thoroughly entertained

right? i am loving this.


As for Lewis/Vitali, that was a good hard fought tough fight by both fighters....Lewis could've taken a rematch but chose not to.

yeah, i'm calling it :bsflag: now, obviously i'm not as knowledgeable in "the sweet science" as others, but that fight was not "hard fought" by both fighters. vitali was in control the whole time--lennox didn't exactly look like shit, but i think he was unprepared and outclassed. he got vitali's attention a few times, and you obviously don't open the kind of hatchet wound with a massage, but he never hurt him or put him in any real danger. vitali was like a freakin' machine.

i was a lewis fan until the aftermath of that fight. he showed very little respect for a fighter that clearly had more heart and drive. and then he RETIRED with his belt instead of losing it in a rematch to a man that was a better fighter at the time.

lewis punked out to keep a good record and avoid embarassment instead of losing the strap. and that is why he will NEVER break the top 20 in my book.

but hey, i'm just a fan and former fighter that couldn't hack it as a kickboxer, so what the fuck do i know?:confusedsmilie:

warrior06
04-01-2007, 10:55 AM
I cant say it better than HaloZero.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=001853

http://www.boxrec.com/record000474.html

Afro
04-03-2007, 08:10 PM
Halozero, Lewis didnt punk out.. he had bad management, and retiring with the belt is not something to frown upon.. care to emphasis more on that?

And what do you mean by he never hurt him or put him in danger?

Dork8503
04-03-2007, 10:46 PM
Just my opinion, but i think Vitali would have beat Lewis if it were not for that cut, shit happens in boxing and Vitali lost. I also think Vitiali would have beat Lewis in a rematch but we will never no, its a shame too.

kickbox
04-04-2007, 02:52 AM
First of all, no one ever said Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Douglas. IMO, the reason he lost to Douglas was because tons of problems outside the ring that didn't allow him to focus on Boxing at the time. The same thing happend to James Toney when he was at LHW.

BTW, your father could also be wrong, I argue with older men all the time.

IMO, Tyson was never the same after being in jail for 3 or 4 years. When I saw him Box upon his return, he just didn't have the head movement or the accuracy of the Tyson in the 80s.

BTW, you can make an argument for Lennox, or the Klitschko Bros. beating a Prime Tyson, but they also outweighed him by 40lbs. To say Tyson was overated in his prime is just ignorant and shows it was way!! before your time. Boxing historians don't claim Tyson as one of the P4P best HWs for no reason.

head movements isnt a science just to throw that in. Any pro fighter can do it just its risky in k1

Punk Ass
04-04-2007, 08:33 PM
head movements isnt a science just to throw that in. Any pro fighter can do it just its risky in k1

Any pro fighter can't do it successfully, what are you talking about? It take really good reflexes and skill to be able to anticipate when a person is going to punch and dodge in the nic of time. And it's not all that risky as your making it seem. If you watch Rampage fights you will see him do it a lot.

For a fighter to instantly throw a knee as soon as a fighter ducks a punch is highly improbable. The fighter would have to throw the knee at the same time he throws a punch because the other figther is ducking at same same time as the punch is thrown. Unless the ducking figther is stupid and is going to keep his head down to get kneed.

You don't make good arguments. I would venture to say most kickboxers have a european fighting style because most trainers are from overseas. I think that's why many stand strait up and just throw jabs and check kicks, and barely duck. Now I could be totally wrong so dont quote me.

Afro
04-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Any pro fighter can't do it successfully, what are you talking about? It take really good reflexes and skill to be able to anticipate when a person is going to punch and dodge in the nic of time. And it's not all that risky as your making it seem. If you watch Rampage fights you will see him do it a lot.

For a fighter to instantly throw a knee as soon as a fighter ducks a punch is highly improbable. The fighter would have to throw the knee at the same time he throws a punch because the other figther is ducking at same same time as the punch is thrown. Unless the ducking figther is stupid and is going to keep his head down to get kneed.

You don't make good arguments. I would venture to say most kickboxers have a european fighting style because most trainers are from overseas. I think that's why many stand strait up and just throw jabs and check kicks, and barely duck. Now I could be totally wrong so dont quote me.
Kickbox's soul mission in life is to create dream matches featuring boxers in matches that are out of there element, and going around claiming that boxing isnt a sweet science, just ignore him.

kickbox
04-04-2007, 10:59 PM
Any pro fighter can't do it successfully, what are you talking about? It take really good reflexes and skill to be able to anticipate when a person is going to punch and dodge in the nic of time. And it's not all that risky as your making it seem. If you watch Rampage fights you will see him do it a lot.

For a fighter to instantly throw a knee as soon as a fighter ducks a punch is highly improbable. The fighter would have to throw the knee at the same time he throws a punch because the other figther is ducking at same same time as the punch is thrown. Unless the ducking figther is stupid and is going to keep his head down to get kneed.

You don't make good arguments. I would venture to say most kickboxers have a european fighting style because most trainers are from overseas. I think that's why many stand strait up and just throw jabs and check kicks, and barely duck. Now I could be totally wrong so dont quote me.

rampage did that and look what Shogun and wand did to him.

kickbox
04-04-2007, 11:00 PM
rampage did that and look what Shogun and wand did to him.

many good k1 fighters can do that but dont do it much cause you dont know what to expect.

Punk Ass
04-04-2007, 11:32 PM
rampage did that and look what Shogun and wand did to him.

They didn't do that because he ducked a punch, they did it because they forced his head down.

kickbox
04-04-2007, 11:36 PM
They didn't do that because he ducked a punch, they did it because they forced his head down.

same thing is going to happen to a boxer maybe maybe a lucky punch within the clinch but who knows???

Salvy_Mic
04-05-2007, 06:59 AM
I think a good out-boxer with an excellent jab picks either Wand or Shogun apart. Either of them wouldn't be able to get inside to work that clinch. If Muhammad Ali were in his prime today, learned to sprawl, and boned up on his BJJ and sub defense, he'd be a top 3 heavyweight. He'd be too fast for anyone trying to come inside on him on either a takedown, clinch, or tieup, and he'd get off quicker than any striker around, and just dance and pick anyone apart. But that's my opinion.

dagreat1
04-17-2007, 12:54 PM
Lennox and Vitale were both phenomenal boxers, Lennox is certainly one of the best HW's of all time.

They are both coming out of retirement for the rematch.

Severn
04-17-2007, 04:07 PM
I was watching ESPN Who's Number One? the other day Top 20 Boxers

They had Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson on the list.. no Lennox Lewis, they mentioned honorable mentions... no Lennox Lewis. So they put two boxers he has beaten over him and dont even mention him at all.. and if you google Top Boxers of all-time you'll occasionally see a Mike Tyson or Evander, and Lennox is no where in SIGHT! Why is this? what was it about Lennox that leaves him out of these discussions but yet includes Boxers he has beaten?

He's overlooked because he's not American and didn't fight in any wars so he never had a chance to earn respect from fans. He wasn't even the most loved boxer in his own country (Frank Bruno gets that nod). Tyson was an event regardless of what he did, Holyfield fought wars, Bowe also fought wars, Foreman had charisma. Lewis was imo better than all of them but no one cared. He's a boring, intellectual, uncharismatic stiff.

dylan5252
04-17-2007, 05:23 PM
Lennox should probably be on the list he was the last undisputed champion and look at the state of the heavyweight division without him, you have a bunch of Mid-level fighters getting title shots and freaks like Valuev holding on to titles so Lennox should be on the list he was the best fighter of his era probably 1997- retirement and he retired as the champion so i think he was at least a top 15 if not top 20 heavyweight

Salvy_Mic
04-17-2007, 07:21 PM
Hey, dagreat1, where'd you hear that Lewis is coming out of retirement? Vitali is, I know that, but last I heard, Lewis was perfectly content in his own retirement and adamantly denied any rumors he was coming back. And yes, Lewis is at least a top 15 heavyweight, if not the outer edges of the top 10 itself. Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, and perhaps Holyfield and Tyson, I'd rank above him, but I say Lewis is above Patterson, Liston, Charles, Walcott, and Tunney.

If he'd been able to fight Tyson and Holyfield in the early 90s, and been able to win, I think Lewis makes a definite case for top 5 status even....at no. 5 anyway, Ali, Louis, Johnson, and Dempsey are all top 4 regardless, maybe Marciano slides a bit.

dagreat1
04-19-2007, 06:29 PM
Hey, dagreat1, where'd you hear that Lewis is coming out of retirement? Vitali is, I know that, but last I heard, Lewis was perfectly content in his own retirement and adamantly denied any rumors he was coming back. And yes, Lewis is at least a top 15 heavyweight, if not the outer edges of the top 10 itself. Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, and perhaps Holyfield and Tyson, I'd rank above him, but I say Lewis is above Patterson, Liston, Charles, Walcott, and Tunney.

If he'd been able to fight Tyson and Holyfield in the early 90s, and been able to win, I think Lewis makes a definite case for top 5 status even....at no. 5 anyway, Ali, Louis, Johnson, and Dempsey are all top 4 regardless, maybe Marciano slides a bit.

Just wishful thinking. With boxing being taken over by MMA and only able to compete on PPV buys when De La Hoya fights (Or if Trinidad came back) this fight would probably trump De La Hoya vs Mayweather and would likely be the largest grossing PPV of 07.

There's a lot at risk for Lennox in his mind but coming out of retirement, if he were to lose I don't think it would tarnish his legacy.

Afro
04-19-2007, 06:30 PM
Ok question #2 why is Riddick Bowe so damn overlooked? lol the guy is undefeated in my book, the 2nd fight with Holyfield shoulda been an NC, either way you cant expect him to win after what happened that night.

Severn
04-19-2007, 07:06 PM
Ok question #2 why is Riddick Bowe so damn overlooked? lol the guy is undefeated in my book, the 2nd fight with Holyfield shoulda been an NC, either way you cant expect him to win after what happened that night.

I think the problem with him is two fold. He trashed a belt (don't remember which one) that meant that he wouldn't fight Lennox and that he had a short main event window. He was great, I take nothing away from him and he deserves all the props in the world for his wars with Holyfield. I liked him a lot but I remember seeing this HBO special years ago on him and how much brain damage he suffered from his first fight with Holyfield to his last. Real tragic stuff.

Punk Ass
04-19-2007, 08:03 PM
I think the problem with him is two fold. He trashed a belt (don't remember which one) that meant that he wouldn't fight Lennox and that he had a short main event window. He was great, I take nothing away from him and he deserves all the props in the world for his wars with Holyfield. I liked him a lot but I remember seeing this HBO special years ago on him and how much brain damage he suffered from his first fight with Holyfield to his last. Real tragic stuff.

Your right. That's why he retired, because he was never the same after fighting Holyfield and it showed against Golata.

Salvy_Mic
04-20-2007, 05:20 AM
Rock Norman ruined Bowe's career, in my opinion. He kept turning down a lot of big fights for Bowe and lined up nothing but safe defenses, not what the people want to see their undisputed heavyweight champion do.

Severn
04-20-2007, 03:45 PM
Rock Norman ruined Bowe's career, in my opinion. He kept turning down a lot of big fights for Bowe and lined up nothing but safe defenses, not what the people want to see their undisputed heavyweight champion do.

Rock Newman you mean. Funny thing is that I thought he would last in the sport as a promoter. Guess not.

Salvy_Mic
04-20-2007, 05:58 PM
Yeah, Rock Newman. When I said Norman, I think I had Stormin' Norman, Ruiz' manager, running around with the title Valuev just won in the ring in the back of my mind.

dylan5252
04-21-2007, 09:01 AM
riddick bowe is probably so overlooked because he was the link between the tyson era and the holyfield/lewis era. i just dont really see him in the top 20 because he wasn't champion for very long and besides fighting holyfield he never had any other real competition.