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CtGreat
04-12-2011, 10:24 PM
Brock Lesnar: 5 Reasons Size Is Overrated and Jon Jones Would Beat Lesnar | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/655950-size-overrated-5-reasons-jon-jones-would-beat-brock-lesnar/page/1)
By Jordy McElroy


The philosophies of wrestling, boxing and jiu-jitsu don't equate to who has the strongest bench press. Lesnar, an NCAA Division I Heavyweight Champion wrestler, knows this better than anyone.
As a monstrous heavyweight, fans never really seem to grasp Lesnar's true strengths or weaknesses; all they see is size.
It was a humbling experience—and enlightenment for some—after watching newly-crowned heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez dominate Lesnar at UFC 121.
Surely, light heavyweight champion Jon Jones couldn't duplicate Velasquez's success—right?



Jones Has Too Many Weapons
Along with great striking in the open, Jones is devastating in the clinch. His knees and elbows are some of the most lethal in the sport. If that wasn't enough, Jones is also a phenomenal Greco-Roman wrestler, who has tossed around the likes of Mauricio Rua, Ryan Bader, Brandon Vera and Matt Hamill.

The weapons continue in the grappling department. Jones is a former collegiate wrestler at Iowa State Community College, where he won a national JUCO championship in 2006. While this pales in comparison to Lesnar's Division I title, history has taught fans that world-class credentials aren't necessarily needed to find success in a particular area of fighting.

Technique Over Strength
The idea of technique over strength is consistently drilled into the noggins of students all over the world. Unless you've had experience training in an art, it's hard to grasp this concept from your living room or the local pub.

While positions seem stagnant to the casual viewer, there is actually a struggle going on between both fighters.

Brock’s Tentative Nature
Jones loves to be the aggressor, and he has a knack for putting away the toughest of opponents. If Lesnar turns away from Jones' offense, he could quickly find himself ensnared in the clinch and getting teed off on with knees and elbows.

Lesnar's tentative nature also extends to him going into panic mode. At UFC 121, Lesnar became rattled by the fact that he wasn't able to keep Velasquez on his back. Once the fight returned to the feet, Velasquez threw a few punches and Lesnar spun circles across the cage like he had just been hit with the right hand of a hulked up "Hulk Hogan."

Jones’ Reach and Footwork
Lesnar won't find much luck telegraphing double-leg takedowns against Jones. Along with his historic reach, Jones has excellent footwork. He tends to keep opponents at bay with a steady jab and a deep arsenal of kicks.

Is Lesnar's striking good enough to sift through Jones' offense and nab consistent takedowns?

Size Isn’t Everything
Instead of plodding forward in a flat-footed stance, Jones would be much lighter on his feet. He could frustrate Lesnar with good lateral movement and quick reaction to incoming takedowns.

Velasquez and Jones aren't Couture, Frank Mir or Heath Herring. Both men are elite-level wrestlers in their prime. They also trump Lesnar in every area except for size and strength.

*click link for full article*
This article may be on the verge of nuthuggery and maybe I should have put it in noobjack, but I still think it could still provide some fun valid discussion. I dont think we will ever see this fight happen, since Jones would take a while to move up to HW since he is only 23 and has no reason to; also by the time he does(if he ever does) Lesnar would be old and probably retired. However, I do think this could possibly be a very competitive match if it were to happen.

TBEAR
04-12-2011, 10:27 PM
Velasquez and Jones aren't Couture, Frank Mir or Heath Herring. Both men are elite-level wrestlers in their prime. They also trump Lesnar in every area except for size and strength.

I agree with the underlined because Cain and Jones DONT HAVE 5 TITLES to thier name

TapOut27
04-12-2011, 10:30 PM
If brock Get's jones on his back, the fight is over. He won't be able to push him off.

goodtimes
04-12-2011, 11:00 PM
If brock Get's jones on his back, the fight is over. He won't be able to push him off.

Did you see how easily Couture and Velasquez stood back up? The article is criticizing the exact type of logic you're using here: Lesnar is the biggest guy in MMA, therefore no one can survive once he takes them down. It's just not true.

I rewatched the Lesnar/Velasquez fight, and it wasn't nearly as bad as people are making it. Ya he did his little break dancing move, but it looks like Velasquez drilled him with a cross, he was a little wobbly, and he tripped. After tripping, he did that little spin to keep his footing, it wasn't really that big of a deal. Before he got drilled, he was actually jabbing effectively and landing some decent shots. When things got really bad is when Lesnar did not respect the MT clinch Velasquez had him in, he tried to punch his way out and ate a big knee, and he was done after that.

Imo Jones would probably beat Lesnar in a fight, I think the grappling would be pretty even and Jones is much better on his feet. Although it's not as large as it was against his previous opponents, Jones still has a decent reach advantage over Lesnar. He really isn't a smaller guy; he may be lighter, but his frame is longer, and if he put the time in to put on weight he could get to 240-250 lbs pretty easily. Jones' future is at HW for sure, and I see him running through guys there like he has run through guys at LHW.

IceCold48
04-12-2011, 11:02 PM
I agree with the underlined because Cain and Jones DONT HAVE 5 TITLES to thier name

i always didnt get why that feat was SO amazing. it means he lost the title 5 times too you know.

anderson silva is a 1 time champ but has defended the belt a shit ton of times.

The_Icon
04-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Brock is big for a HW and Jones might be able to throw 205ers around but he would have a much harder time with a guy that comes into the cage above 265. Jones striking is infinitely better than Brocks but I can't help but think Brock would out wrestle Jones if he could get ahold of him. People tend to forget that there is a multiple time NCAA wrestling champion behind that size. This match up makes for good discussion but the better fight to watch would be Jones Vs A. Silva

Daellusx
04-12-2011, 11:29 PM
I found the title kind of amusing implying that size doesnt matter and yet Jones is one of the bigger LHW's and has the longest reach in the UFC.

Pasha K
04-12-2011, 11:29 PM
I dont understand the point of this thread. No one has even talked about a potential Jones vs Lesnar.

That being said its obvious that Jones would win

CtGreat
04-12-2011, 11:34 PM
i always didnt get why that feat was SO amazing. it means he lost the title 5 times too you know.

anderson silva is a 1 time champ but has defended the belt a shit ton of times.

Randy also won it agains't(imo)sub par opponents, I personally think todays fighters are leagues ahead of the old guard of fighters. They are much more well rounded and diciplined. Beating Maurice Smith, Kevin Randelman, Pedro Rizzo, Tim Silvia, and Gabe Gonzaga for HW title defenses/title claims isn't that impressive to me. Same for beating Chuck, Tito for LHW defenses/claiming the title.

Out of all of those guys that he won against to defend or claim the belt, the only impressive fighter is Chuck, whom he lost to in the rematch; I never thought Tim Silvia was that great either. What is impressive about Randy, is that he was still so successful after starting his career so late at 37! Therefore, were his championship accomplishments that impressive? Not really, but for his age, HELL YEA. So let him get have the hype.

I dont understand the point of this thread. No one has even talked about a potential Jones vs Lesnar.

That being said its obvious that Jones would win
Maybe the point of this thread was to get people to start talking about it? Or do you mean nobody in the UFC has?

santeesiouxwarrior
04-13-2011, 12:03 AM
gees!! jones beating lesnar?!! might as well say dominic cruz or jose aldo has the tools to beat jon jones or anderson silva..

MrSpanky
04-13-2011, 12:16 AM
There's no way Jones would be able to hold Lesnar down like he held Shogun down. The only way Jones could win is if he kept it standing. Lesnar would clinch and look for the takedown and his size would make it impossible for Jones to shake him.

HillbillyDeluxe
04-13-2011, 12:37 AM
you all smoke crack...No point of Lesnar vs Jones. Velasquez would wreck him first.

The heavyweight division is a different animal than LHW....

TheKidInside
04-13-2011, 01:00 AM
To say that you can't get up from a Brock TD is just plain ignorant of facts as has been pointed out. Furthermore, a guy with good jits or grappling experience understands the concept of "once unbalanced, it doesn't matter what your opponent weighs" which is the fundamental of sweeps and reversals.

I think it would be a great fight but I don't see Jon Jones going to HW for a WHILE and I don't see Brock being the baddest man on the planet if/when that happens

Kimbo> Rampage
04-13-2011, 01:23 AM
ya because the only thing i think about with size is weight and muscle... jones is a small man...:dry:


The guys at hw will still have to deal with jones huge reach and athleticism. He'd even have 3.5inches on overeem. jones is still taller than lesnar(I believe that he is 6'5, not 6'4) and has good reach on him. When saying size is overrated I would use the cain vs. brock fight rather than a jones vs. brock fight. Brock has a lot of weight on jones but jones still has size advantages of his own. Jones will still have a huge reach advantage against all hw's he faces when he goes to hw and by then he could add some serious muscle to his frame and imagine his skillset by then. His takedowns would keep getting better, he could be an A+ level striker by then, etc.


Interesting thread, bad example.

ultiman187
04-13-2011, 02:35 AM
um guys... i dont think you people guit realize how much weight 65lbs is!! assuming they both cut about the same. i know from experience. Ive been able to hang with grapplers better then me by controlling them with size (Im 245). with 65lbs on the table, size matters.

GL Jeff
04-13-2011, 02:51 AM
Talking about size and strength,and then comparing it to Jones it kinda funny. Joens is one of the biggest LHW's,with the longest reach, also he has stated he probably has to move to HW because he is still filling out his frame. LHW's have always been able to fight against HW's,and if Jones didnt cut weight he would be the same size as Cain,Cro Cop or Schaub. Its not that far fetched, to think he could fight at HW.

What people should be talking about,is all the blood thirsty animals at LHW that wanna take on Jones...oh wait, no ones calling him out. Dana light a fire under someones ass.

LefthookStcrook
04-13-2011, 03:01 AM
Lol amazing how one good win automatically makes you "the #1 P4p king, next fedor, lets start talking about fights against the biggest opponent, entered into GOAT convos" type of fighter.

Remember the "Machida Era" anyone lol? Jones wont hold that strap for too long, LHW is too stacked.

Sakara=Excitement
04-13-2011, 03:04 AM
N00bjack pronto!

SimpleJack
04-13-2011, 03:44 AM
To say that you can't get up from a Brock TD is just plain ignorant of facts as has been pointed out. Furthermore, a guy with good jits or grappling experience understands the concept of "once unbalanced, it doesn't matter what your opponent weighs" which is the fundamental of sweeps and reversals.

I think it would be a great fight but I don't see Jon Jones going to HW for a WHILE and I don't see Brock being the baddest man on the planet if/when that happens

Nicely said....by a guy who's never had a 300 lb gorilla with a world-class base on top of him. I'm no Brock fan and likely the opposite. However, I am realistic.

My follow-up to that would be to ask what has led you or anyone to think Jon Jones has good Jits or any bottom game at all?

JPeezy
04-13-2011, 04:00 AM
This article and this thread make my head hurt.

The only fighters beating Lesnar are elite strikers. Who has Jon Jones knocked out at 205 in the standup game exactly? No way could Jones take Lesnar down either. If these two fought Lesnar would get the take down and eventually pound Jones out.

There seems to be no purpose for this article other than to bash Lesnar and hug Jones nuts because this fight won't ever happen.

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 04:07 AM
Wow...talk about overrating Jones & underrating Lesnar.

Can technique overcome size? Sure, but we just saw Fedor (the world sambo champion and previous #1 P4P fighter in the world) get obliterated by Bigfoot, & Jon Jones ain't much bigger than Fedor in terms of bulk.

Jones doesn't have nearly the punching power Velasquez does. Even in the Cain fight Brock was never out. Brock doesn't react well to getting hit by monsters like Cain or Carwin, but then again who does? He was able to take shots from Mir, Randy, & Carwin, so he'd most definitely be able to absorb shots from Jones. Jones is amazing, but he hasn't KO'd anyone standing. He has not displayed one punch KO power.

Jon Jones has won every UFC fight by being able to take his opponents down. He's used to having a strength advantage. He beat Bader by taking him down & sinking in a submission, he smashed Hammil, Vera, & the Janitor with elbows, & he completely wore Shogun out with his grappling. Hell, the guy german suplexed Stephan Bonner. As flashy as his striking is, Jones relies on his wrestling & ground & pound to get the job done. Bones is also used to having a significant reach advantage. Bones has an 84.5 inch reach. Brock has an 81 inch reach. 3.5 inches would give Bones an advantage, but it's a far smaller advantage than he's used to.

Does Jones have a skill advantage over Lesnar in the wrestling department? Not really. Brock is a former NCAA champ, and Jones a NJCAA all-american. At best they're even. Lesnar's size & strength give him the advantage.

It's true Jones is much more well rounded, but does anyone really see him sinking in some sort of triangle, guillotine, or kimura against a guy 50 pounds larger on fight night? Jones has said in previous interviews he walks around at 217. Considering Brock usually plays it pretty safe when on top & has the wrestling to get back to his feet if he ever did get taken down, a submission seems very unlikely.

So let's see, Bones can't significantly hurt Lesnar standing, and his biggest weapon (wrestling) is actually his biggest disadvantage. The size difference would make it very difficult for him to pull off any submissions. He also couldn't use his general strategy of ground & pound, and if he tries the flashy striking that normally keeps opponents off balance (i.e. superman elbow) he'll end up on his ass within seconds.

Who would anyone pick Josh Koscheck to beat Randy Couture? The principals are identical. Jon Jones would not beat Brock Lesnar...at least not right now. Now if he puts on 20 solid pounds of muscle & continues to develop his striking then he'd have a shot, but that's not happening anytime soon as he's looking to stay at 205 for the foreseeable future.

snakeofdoom
04-13-2011, 04:43 AM
Randy also won it agains't(imo)sub par opponents, I personally think todays fighters are leagues ahead of the old guard of fighters. They are much more well rounded and diciplined. Beating Maurice Smith, Kevin Randelman, Pedro Rizzo, Tim Silvia, and Gabe Gonzaga for HW title defenses/title claims isn't that impressive to me. Same for beating Chuck, Tito for LHW defenses/claiming the title.

Out of all of those guys that he won against to defend or claim the belt, the only impressive fighter is Chuck, whom he lost to in the rematch; I never thought Tim Silvia was that great either.

Let me ask you something. Are you a noob or just fucking retarded? Subpar opponents? Fucking Tito won the title from Wanderlei then went on 5 straight successful defenses of that belt before he ran into Randy.
Chuck was still the "iceman" in his prime and was 12-1 with his lone loss being from a jeremey Horn sub, and he had never been finished before. Randy fucking tko'd him. Chuck looked unstoppable until Randy took his belt.
Kevin Randleman was a beast who took the almighty Bas Rutten to a split decision for the title. He may not have stayed the champ long but he definitely was no joke. Maurice was a bit of a can, i'll agree.

Pedro was 11-1 with 7 KO or TKO and 3 subs not to mention that only loss was a decision! So he had finished 10 of 11 opponents. First Randy takes him to a decision then in the rematch TKO's him!
Gonzaga? 6 fight win streak where he had finished every one of them then, you guessed it, met Randy, and TKO.
Sylvia was 23-2 with 16 by KO or TKO. He also happened to be on a six fight win streak. Randy had been retired for a YEAR and was a LHW when he left. Yep Randy took his belt, it may have been a decision but nobody expected Randy to put timmy on his ass with a punch :08 into the 1st round!

All of these guys may not be much now (Randy has lossed a bit too) but give Randy some respect for what he accomplished, not to mention he is STILL fighting and against former champions no less (Machida).

So you either just started watching 3 or 4 years ago or are a completely ignorant about MMA, if so her endeth the lesson.

goodtimes
04-13-2011, 05:01 AM
Let me ask you something. Are you a noob or just fucking retarded? Subpar opponents? Fucking Tito won the title from Wanderlei then went on 5 straight successful defenses of that belt before he ran into Randy.
Chuck was still the "iceman" in his prime and was 12-1 with his lone loss being from a jeremey Horn sub, and he had never been finished before. Randy fucking tko'd him. Chuck looked unstoppable until Randy took his belt.
Kevin Randleman was a beast who took the almighty Bas Rutten to a split decision for the title. He may not have stayed the champ long but he definitely was no joke. Maurice was a bit of a can, i'll agree.

Pedro was 11-1 with 7 KO or TKO and 3 subs not to mention that only loss was a decision! So he had finished 10 of 11 opponents. First Randy takes him to a decision then in the rematch TKO's him!
Gonzaga? 6 fight win streak where he had finished every one of them then, you guessed it, met Randy, and TKO.
Sylvia was 23-2 with 16 by KO or TKO. He also happened to be on a six fight win streak. Randy had been retired for a YEAR and was a LHW when he left. Yep Randy took his belt, it may have been a decision but nobody expected Randy to put timmy on his ass with a punch :08 into the 1st round!

All of these guys may not be much now (Randy has lossed a bit too) but give Randy some respect for what he accomplished, not to mention he is STILL fighting and against former champions no less (Machida).

So you either just started watching 3 or 4 years ago or are a completely ignorant about MMA, if so her endeth the lesson.

His observations are pretty spot on... Ortiz was champ of an anemic LHW division. He only won the title after Shamrock embarrassed him and moved on to greener pastures. Sure he beat Wanderlei, but outside of that he beat a few cans, Matyushenko, and Evan Tanner. OK Couture beat Liddell once, then got KO'd twice, obviously Liddell was the better fighter at LHW. Liddell is the guy that made Couture originally retire.

But bring it back a bit, yes Couture was a HW champ but he also left HW because the competition was too stiff (Btw, Randleman lost that SD to Rutten, so your facts aren't even straight). He had back to back stoppage losses to Ricco Rodriguez and Josh Barnett. He only went back to HW after seeing how pathetic the HW division became with Sylvia ruling over it.

So ya, Couture is an incredible guy who has done some pretty cool things in the sport. But it doesn't take a genius to look at how he moved around divisions was not to challenge himself, but to fight easier fights. He started as a HW, couldn't compete with the bigger HWs so he went to LHW. He beat Liddell once, but once Liddell got his shit together he was clearly the better fighter. However, by that time the HW division was shit so Couture moved back up.

goodtimes
04-13-2011, 05:13 AM
Wow...talk about overrating Jones & underrating Lesnar.

Can technique overcome size? Sure, but we just saw Fedor (the world sambo champion and previous #1 P4P fighter in the world) get obliterated by Bigfoot, & Jon Jones ain't much bigger than Fedor in terms of bulk.

Jones doesn't have nearly the punching power Velasquez does. Even in the Cain fight Brock was never out. Brock doesn't react well to getting hit by monsters like Cain or Carwin, but then again who does? He was able to take shots from Mir, Randy, & Carwin, so he'd most definitely be able to absorb shots from Jones. Jones is amazing, but he hasn't KO'd anyone standing. He has not displayed one punch KO power.

Jon Jones has won every UFC fight by being able to take his opponents down. He's used to having a strength advantage. He beat Bader by taking him down & sinking in a submission, he smashed Hammil, Vera, & the Janitor with elbows, & he completely wore Shogun out with his grappling. Hell, the guy german suplexed Stephan Bonner. As flashy as his striking is, Jones relies on his wrestling & ground & pound to get the job done. Bones is also used to having a significant reach advantage. Bones has an 84.5 inch reach. Brock has an 81 inch reach. 3.5 inches would give Bones an advantage, but it's a far smaller advantage than he's used to.

Does Jones have a skill advantage over Lesnar in the wrestling department? Not really. Brock is a former NCAA champ, and Jones a NJCAA all-american. At best they're even. Lesnar's size & strength give him the advantage.

It's true Jones is much more well rounded, but does anyone really see him sinking in some sort of triangle, guillotine, or kimura against a guy 50 pounds larger on fight night? Jones has said in previous interviews he walks around at 217. Considering Brock usually plays it pretty safe when on top & has the wrestling to get back to his feet if he ever did get taken down, a submission seems very unlikely.

So let's see, Bones can't significantly hurt Lesnar standing, and his biggest weapon (wrestling) is actually his biggest disadvantage. The size difference would make it very difficult for him to pull off any submissions. He also couldn't use his general strategy of ground & pound, and if he tries the flashy striking that normally keeps opponents off balance (i.e. superman elbow) he'll end up on his ass within seconds.

Who would anyone pick Josh Koscheck to beat Randy Couture? The principals are identical. Jon Jones would not beat Brock Lesnar...at least not right now. Now if he puts on 20 solid pounds of muscle & continues to develop his striking then he'd have a shot, but that's not happening anytime soon as he's looking to stay at 205 for the foreseeable future.

Jon Jones is about the same weight as Fedor, but he has no fat on his body. He's almost a half a foot taller, and has a 10" reach advantage on Fedor. Jones is actually taller and has a reach advantage on Bigfoot, a guy people characterize as one of the giants of the HW division. Jones also has a height and reach advantage on Lesnar. Jones' frame is probably larger then Velasquez's, I really don't see why he wouldn't be able to beat anyone at HW.

Couture is 3 inches taller and has about the same amount of reach on Koscheck. I think the example of Jones doesn't really make sense not because Lesnar is so much larger, but because Jones' frame is the largest in the UFC. You can see it in how he so easily out-muscles other LHW, even ones who are very strong like Bader or Shogun. I bet if Jones dominates the rest of his opponents for 2011 and stays healthy, he's going to HW.

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 05:16 AM
His observations are pretty spot on... Ortiz was champ of an anemic LHW division. He only won the title after Shamrock embarrassed him and moved on to greener pastures. Sure he beat Wanderlei, but outside of that he beat a few cans, Matyushenko, and Evan Tanner.

Tito also beat Vitor Belfort, Forrest Griffin, & would've beaten Rashad Evans if he hadn't had a point deducted. I'd say defeating the future long-time PRIDE light-heavyweight champ, 1 former UFC light-heavyweight champ, 1 future ufc light-heavyweight champ, 1 former ufc middleweight champ, and drawing another future light-heavyweight champ makes for a pretty credible career.

And there's a reason Frank Shamrock retired. Tito fixed his cardio problem after the Shammy fight & would've destroyed him


Jon Jones is about the same weight as Fedor, but he has no fat on his body. He's almost a half a foot taller, and has a 10" reach advantage on Fedor. Jones is actually taller and has a reach advantage on Bigfoot, a guy people characterize as one of the giants of the HW division. Jones also has a height and reach advantage on Lesnar. Jones' frame is probably larger then Velasquez's, I really don't see why he wouldn't be able to beat anyone at HW.

Couture is 3 inches taller and has about the same amount of reach on Koscheck. I think the example of Jones doesn't really make sense not because Lesnar is so much larger, but because Jones' frame is the largest in the UFC. You can see it in how he so easily out-muscles other LHW, even ones who are very strong like Bader or Shogun. I bet if Jones dominates the rest of his opponents for 2011 and stays healthy, he's going to HW.

Jones doesn't really have a height advantage on Brock. They're both listed at 6'4. Even if Jones is 6'5 that's minimal at best, as is his 3.5 inch reach advantage, especially when there isn't a ton of power behind that jab.

Jones can add a lot of weight on his frame, but he actually has to do it. If he weighed 240 it'd be a different story, but right now he won't have the strength advantage he so heavily relies on. Brock's 265 isn't the same as Tim Sylvia's. He's the strongest man in the UFC.

And honestly, Brock's one of the better matchups for Bones at heavyweight.

Bigfoot doesn't have great striking, but he sure can take a punch. He's also massive & has a great ground game. I can see the current Bones possibly outpointing him, but that's about it.

JDS has far better striking & power, and his ground game is solid enough to avoid subs. His TDD is a ? but we'll find out how good it is against Brock.

Cain has comparable striking, cardio, & wrestling, but a lot more power behind his shots. If Cain is bigger at the time of the fight that leaves Jones with only height and reach advantages, which don't mean much when he lacks the power to put Cain away standing.

Overeem has far better striking & power, and his size advantage could be enough to prevent a takedown.

Carwin's cardio sucks, but his wrestling, clinch, and power could be enough to blow Bones out in the 1st round.

Jones is going to heavyweight eventually; as he ages he'll naturally put weight on that massive frame & the cut to 205 will become impossible. That could be years away though. There will be plenty of matchups for him at 205, especially with Strikeforce in the fold.

MrSpanky
04-13-2011, 05:47 AM
Jones is going to heavyweight eventually; as he ages he'll naturally put weight on that massive frame & the cut to 205 will become impossible. That could be years away though. There will be plenty of matchups for him at 205, especially with Strikeforce in the fold.

I'd say Jones is about the same size as Forrest Griffin, and Forrest is better fit in to his body. Jones still has those toothpick legs. I think he's going to break one of his shins like Corey Hill did. I can't see Jones moving up to HW because he has no reason to, and there's so much good competition for him at LHW.

GSPvsSILVA2012
04-13-2011, 05:51 AM
Fuck sakes. Bones would probably take HIM down and outwrestle him. When are ppl gonna just accept that Bones is gonna be the best ever lol...

goodtimes
04-13-2011, 05:55 AM
Jones doesn't really have a height advantage on Brock. They're both listed at 6'4. Even if Jones is 6'5 that's minimal at best, as is his 3.5 inch reach advantage, especially when there isn't a ton of power behind that jab.

Jones can add a lot of weight on his frame, but he actually has to do it. If he weighed 240 it'd be a different story, but right now he won't have the strength advantage he so heavily relies on. Brock's 265 isn't the same as Tim Sylvia's. He's the strongest man in the UFC.

And honestly, Brock's one of the better matchups for Bones at heavyweight.

Bigfoot doesn't have great striking, but he sure can take a punch. He's also massive & has a great ground game. I can see the current Bones possibly outpointing him, but that's about it.

JDS has far better striking & power, and his ground game is solid enough to avoid subs. His TDD is a ? but we'll find out how good it is against Brock.

Cain has comparable striking, cardio, & wrestling, but a lot more power behind his shots. If Cain is bigger at the time of the fight that leaves Jones with only height and reach advantages, which don't mean much when he lacks the power to put Cain away standing.

Overeem has far better striking & power, and his size advantage could be enough to prevent a takedown.

Carwin's cardio sucks, but his wrestling, clinch, and power could be enough to blow Bones out in the 1st round.

Jones is going to heavyweight eventually; as he ages he'll naturally put weight on that massive frame & the cut to 205 will become impossible. That could be years away though. There will be plenty of matchups for him at 205, especially with Strikeforce in the fold.

About Lesnar's height, it depends on where you look, it ranges from 6'1" to 6'4". I thought he was 6'2", either way he is not as long as Jones. Btw does anyone know what Jones cuts down from? I think he makes 240 easily right now, and probably weighed around 230 when he fought Shogun. Velasquez was weighing around 230 for most of his fights, only when he fought Lesnar did he put on some weight and break 250. I'm not saying Jones runs through everyone at HW, and he might be lacking power if he moved up, but he still has the reach to beat anyone at long range, great wrestling, learns very fast, but it seems like we see eye-to-eye that his future is at HW?

GSPvsSILVA2012
04-13-2011, 06:08 AM
Overem, Cain, Bigfoot all beat the 205 Bones of right now. In the future, who knows.

mmawolverine
04-13-2011, 06:11 AM
jones has all kinds of talent and potential, but assuming he would smash lesnar...you know what they say about people who assume?

Kimbo> Rampage
04-13-2011, 06:30 AM
Im not trying to overrate jones' skill and his place in the sport, just a horrible argument to bring up jones in a case of size doesnt matter. We all know that physical strength and weight matter a lot but so does reach, height, length, etc.


When jones fought shogun standing, the size difference reminded me of what it would look like if shogun were to fight in a k1 with the height and reach difference.

People just assume when he moves up that the hw's will be able to easily deal with his length. Now, it would be horribly stupid for him to go up, but can you imagine him putting on an overeem like muscle gain a few years from now. He is way more impressive than an early overeem, he figured out how to use his reach a lot sooner than overeem and everybody who fights jones says he is very strong. If he can get that kind of striking he can be close to indestructible. Combine his wrestling, great use of leverage, athleticism, and his reach, he can take anybody down. His takedowns are 2nd only to gsp. Jones will be a top hw for sure down the line.

dbader08
04-13-2011, 07:10 AM
I would expect Lesnar to be able to take him down and hold him there but who knows...

hurt80
04-13-2011, 08:35 AM
i always didnt get why that feat was SO amazing. it means he lost the title 5 times too you know.

anderson silva is a 1 time champ but has defended the belt a shit ton of times.

i think whats cool about couture is that he successfully evolved with the sport for his entire career at the highest level of the game. yeah he didnt defend his title's for a long period of time but just the fact that he won belts that often is pretty cool

aussiemma
04-13-2011, 02:20 PM
jones cuts down to make lhw from around 235. imagine he puts on just a little bit of muscle. with his size and frame he could easily walk into the hw division weighing 245-250.
jones has never been taken down in the ufc. his reach is un matched and stand up is only getting better. im pretty confident that if you put jones against lesnar that you would see a similiar result to when velasquez fought him. the only advntage i see for lesnar is strength, which could be overcome by jones' technique

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 02:52 PM
About Lesnar's height, it depends on where you look, it ranges from 6'1" to 6'4". I thought he was 6'2", either way he is not as long as Jones. Btw does anyone know what Jones cuts down from? I think he makes 240 easily right now, and probably weighed around 230 when he fought Shogun. Velasquez was weighing around 230 for most of his fights, only when he fought Lesnar did he put on some weight and break 250. I'm not saying Jones runs through everyone at HW, and he might be lacking power if he moved up, but he still has the reach to beat anyone at long range, great wrestling, learns very fast, but it seems like we see eye-to-eye that his future is at HW?

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/300262/Jon-Jones-up-to-221-after-weigh-ins/

Bones weighed roughly 220 when he fought Bader. His weight is similar to Randy Couture.

Cain weighed 240 in his last fight. Same with JDS.

My point is basically that Jones has every physical advantage imaginable over his opponents at 205. At heavyweight he loses all of that except for reach and quickness, but those don't matter as much because he's never shown standup KO power at 205. That'd be even more difficult at HW.

When he eventually moves to heavyweight (it could be 5 or more years) he'll need to put on additonal muscle so he can continue to utilize his dominant ground & pound.

Bones McGee
04-13-2011, 03:43 PM
N00bjack pronto!

As was stated this topic probably belongs there, your input has been noticed, but looked over for the sake of conversation that can be considered intellectual.

bingo
04-13-2011, 03:49 PM
His observations are pretty spot on... Ortiz was champ of an anemic LHW division. He only won the title after Shamrock embarrassed him and moved on to greener pastures. Sure he beat Wanderlei, but outside of that he beat a few cans, Matyushenko, and Evan Tanner. OK Couture beat Liddell once, then got KO'd twice, obviously Liddell was the better fighter at LHW. Liddell is the guy that made Couture originally retire.

But bring it back a bit, yes Couture was a HW champ but he also left HW because the competition was too stiff (Btw, Randleman lost that SD to Rutten, so your facts aren't even straight). He had back to back stoppage losses to Ricco Rodriguez and Josh Barnett. He only went back to HW after seeing how pathetic the HW division became with Sylvia ruling over it.

So ya, Couture is an incredible guy who has done some pretty cool things in the sport. But it doesn't take a genius to look at how he moved around divisions was not to challenge himself, but to fight easier fights. He started as a HW, couldn't compete with the bigger HWs so he went to LHW. He beat Liddell once, but once Liddell got his shit together he was clearly the better fighter. However, by that time the HW division was shit so Couture moved back up.

By this kind of comparison, you could say that about Fedor too. Some feel Fedor has never faced top competition because he hasn't fought in the UFC. Now he's considering a move to another weight class. Some people feel it's because he can't compete with the beasts at HW anymore.
This is not a flame on Fedor. Just making a comparison to the "logic" of the original statement.

bingo
04-13-2011, 04:01 PM
i always didnt get why that feat was SO amazing. it means he lost the title 5 times too you know.

anderson silva is a 1 time champ but has defended the belt a shit ton of times.

It's true about Anderson Silva. He's done an amazing job defending the belt! However, anyone can be beat on any given day. Shoot, even Matt Sera beat George St. Pierre! LOL
The point is, winning a world title multiple times in any sport is an amazing accomplishment, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Luc1an
04-13-2011, 05:52 PM
gees!! jones beating lesnar?!! might as well say dominic cruz or jose aldo has the tools to beat jon jones or anderson silva..

You are silly =) Jones could easily make HW, and in a few years he would probably have no choice but to fight at HW. He probably walks around at 220 now, if not more.

goodtimes
04-13-2011, 06:11 PM
By this kind of comparison, you could say that about Fedor too. Some feel Fedor has never faced top competition because he hasn't fought in the UFC. Now he's considering a move to another weight class. Some people feel it's because he can't compete with the beasts at HW anymore.
This is not a flame on Fedor. Just making a comparison to the "logic" of the original statement.

Fedor and Randy are different because Randy suffered his losses early in his career, when he started facing top 10 HW's. Then at LHW, he was not the best fighter of his generation in the UFC, Liddell was, and it was also a time when the best LHW's were fighting in Pride.


http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/300262/Jon-Jones-up-to-221-after-weigh-ins/

Bones weighed roughly 220 when he fought Bader. His weight is similar to Randy Couture.

Cain weighed 240 in his last fight. Same with JDS.

My point is basically that Jones has every physical advantage imaginable over his opponents at 205. At heavyweight he loses all of that except for reach and quickness, but those don't matter as much because he's never shown standup KO power at 205. That'd be even more difficult at HW.

When he eventually moves to heavyweight (it could be 5 or more years) he'll need to put on additonal muscle so he can continue to utilize his dominant ground & pound.

He went from 205 to 220 in 1 day. If he had a full training camp devoted to coming in at any weight he wanted, you don't think he could easily weigh 230+ pounds? Velasquez also never showed KO power in his earlier fights. After his fight with Kongo, lots of people on this board nicknamed him "pillow-fist". How wrong they were...

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 07:24 PM
He went from 205 to 220 in 1 day. If he had a full training camp devoted to coming in at any weight he wanted, you don't think he could easily weigh 230+ pounds? Velasquez also never showed KO power in his earlier fights. After his fight with Kongo, lots of people on this board nicknamed him "pillow-fist". How wrong they were...

I agree he could put on weight, but that would involve time to add muscle and become a real heavyweight. bones claimed his ideal walkaround weight at the end of 09 was 217.

I was one of those people that mocked Cain in the beginning because his boxing was awful. However, Cain's striking got infinitely better over time. He proved he could KO people against Nog & cemented his power against Brock. Bones still hasn't showed me that yet, & I generally don't believe something until I see it. Obviously I've been wrong before though.

rivethead
04-13-2011, 08:07 PM
I, for one, am completely disgusted at the amount of hate for brock shown in this thread.

You haters should be ashamed of yourselves; just because he came from the WWE doesn't mean he can't beat a LHW.

rh

Y2JUBAE
04-13-2011, 08:10 PM
Size is over-rated? LOL, tell that to all the mma fighters of the world, who have made cutting weight a science.

snakeofdoom
04-13-2011, 08:21 PM
(Btw, Randleman lost that SD to Rutten, so your facts aren't even straight).

So ya, Couture is an incredible guy who has done some pretty cool things in the sport. But it doesn't take a genius to look at how he moved around divisions was not to challenge himself, but to fight easier fights. .

I never said Randleman won , I said he took Bas TO a split decision in a title match, get your facts straight.

Yeah he wanted to avoid bigger HWs, thats why he fought Timmy the first go around and fucking Brock Lesnar the second.
Yeah obviously he jumped around to avoid the tough fights, like Chuck, Tito, Vitor, Lesnar, Nogueira, Barnett, Machida, Timmy. Oh, wait, no he ACTUALLY fought all of these people. I'm not saying he beat everyone but at least he fought them. The only other fighter's opponent list I respect about as much is Chuck and Anderson. Chuck fought pretty much anybody anywhere and Anderson is walking that same path, if not in a more dominant fashion.

Kimbo> Rampage
04-13-2011, 08:24 PM
At heavyweight he loses all of that except for reach and quickness, but those don't matter as much.

disagree, reach and quickness are as important as anythings. Sure lets take a corey hill or kendall grove and they couldnt do anything, but jones is a very big lhw. I agree that he would need to put on all that muscle before going to hw to beat the best atleast. A 4 inch reach advantage is a very big advantage, just because he has 8 inch reach advantage in some of his lhw fights it may not seem like much. agree that he hasnt shown great ko power to this point, but his striking always seems to be getting better by leaps and bounds and look at how much power overeem has added to his striking compared to when he was at lhw. Overeem seemed like the guy to get pushed around/ragdolled around the ring when he was at lhw, jones is the opposite and his opponents say he is very strong. His strength in his takedowns are second to none at lhw and below. He could take anybody down at this point, but it wouldnt be easy to throw a lesnar, carwin, or cain like he does to the lhw's.


I understand that jones will have to deal with his strenght and size when he gets to hw, but people seem to think that his huge reach and athleticism will magically disappear when he goes to hw.

rivethead
04-13-2011, 08:29 PM
The only other fighter's opponent list I respect about as much is Chuck and Anderson. Chuck fought pretty much anybody anywhere and Anderson is walking that same path, if not in a more dominant fashion.

Not trying to put words in your mouth...but your statement can be (mis)interpreted as implying that you feel Randy, Chuck and Anderson all have better resumes than Georges. Did you just forget him, or was it an intentional omission?

rh

Masscore
04-13-2011, 08:38 PM
I, for one, am completely disgusted at the amount of hate for brock shown in this thread.

You haters should be ashamed of yourselves; just because he came from the WWE doesn't mean he can't beat a LHW.

rh

Thank you.

Guys Brock would eat Jones up and spit him out. Jones is an amazing fighter and one day might be considered one of the best of all time. But he would be smashed by Lesnar inside 2 rounds.

Size does matter and it matters a lot when it comes to a LHW fighting a HW. Lesnar is not Shogun or Bader, he does not walk around at 220 or so. He walks around at 285-300. He is a god damn monster and oh yea... he is a BETTER wrestler then Jones. He also won a NJCAA title and was a NCAA D1 champion. Jones also wouldn't have the reach advantage against Lesnar that he does other fighters.

Everyone needs to back up on the Jones hype train, he hasn't even defended his title once yet. Yet people for some reason want to say he can crush Lesnar and make a run at Cain. Guess what, Cain and Lesnar would put Jones in the hospital for an extended period of time and its part of the reason why we have wieght classes.

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 08:46 PM
disagree, reach and quickness are as important as anythings. Sure lets take a corey hill or kendall grove and they couldnt do anything, but jones is a very big lhw. I agree that he would need to put on all that muscle before going to hw to beat the best atleast. A 4 inch reach advantage is a very big advantage, just because he has 8 inch reach advantage in some of his lhw fights it may not seem like much. agree that he hasnt shown great ko power to this point, but his striking always seems to be getting better by leaps and bounds and look at how much power overeem has added to his striking compared to when he was at lhw. Overeem seemed like the guy to get pushed around/ragdolled around the ring when he was at lhw, jones is the opposite and his opponents say he is very strong. His strength in his takedowns are second to none at lhw and below. He could take anybody down at this point, but it wouldnt be easy to throw a lesnar, carwin, or cain like he does to the lhw's.


I understand that jones will have to deal with his strenght and size when he gets to hw, but people seem to think that his huge reach and athleticism will magically disappear when he goes to hw.

I didn't mean to imply that his reach and quickness would become irrelevant, but they wouldn't serve the same purpose as they currently do. Bones gameplan is to use striking to keep opponents off base & setup his takedowns. As quick as he is, it's his strength that allows him to stuff a takedown or break a clinch after attempting an innovative strike. Large heavyweights like Brock & Carwin would make him pay dearly for that kind of creativity because he lacks the strength to push them away if he's off-balance. Bones would need to have a much more disciplined technical striking game to keep his distance instead of looking to setup takedowns. He'd need to become some sort of bizarre hybrid of Tim Sylvia & Anderson Silva for his reach & quickness to be fully utilized against heavyweights, because he can't overpower them like he does in every fight at 205.

Kimbo> Rampage
04-13-2011, 09:31 PM
I didn't mean to imply that his reach and quickness would become irrelevant, but they wouldn't serve the same purpose as they currently do. Bones gameplan is to use striking to keep opponents off base & setup his takedowns. As quick as he is, it's his strength that allows him to stuff a takedown or break a clinch after attempting an innovative strike. Large heavyweights like Brock & Carwin would make him pay dearly for that kind of creativity because he lacks the strength to push them away if he's off-balance. Bones would need to have a much more disciplined technical striking game to keep his distance instead of looking to setup takedowns. He'd need to become some sort of bizarre hybrid of Tim Sylvia & Anderson Silva for his reach & quickness to be fully utilized against heavyweights, because he can't overpower them like he does in every fight at 205.

lol sylvia and anderson, if anything it just makes the figher less skilled and talented than anderson.:grinsmile1: but i know what you mean, sylvia's size and reach...

I Know jones's striking isnt top level yet, id be the first to say it, but it keeps improving and no matter how good of a striker you become, you cant teach reach. look at guys like lennox lewis, klits brothers, sammy schilt, etc who use thier height and reach to dominate their competition, factor into that, that reach plays a role in takedowns as well. Jones would be foolish to go up to hw now, but if he keeps evolving in all areas, masters how to use his reach and athleticism and add a lot of muscle in the right areas, how could you not see him having a lot of success at hw. Overeem was always a good striker, he took his striking to way higher levels, but he was never a big ko guy at lhw and look at him now. legs, back, shoulders, and core. Jones adds some solid muscle there he could be a beast.

Jones is just as physically talented if not more than anybody in mma, including lesnar. Imo they are the top2 in that category.

Adambomb
04-13-2011, 10:19 PM
lol sylvia and anderson, if anything it just makes the figher less skilled and talented than anderson.:grinsmile1: but i know what you mean, sylvia's size and reach...

I Know jones's striking isnt top level yet, id be the first to say it, but it keeps improving and no matter how good of a striker you become, you cant teach reach. look at guys like lennox lewis, klits brothers, sammy schilt, etc who use thier height and reach to dominate their competition, factor into that, that reach plays a role in takedowns as well. Jones would be foolish to go up to hw now, but if he keeps evolving in all areas, masters how to use his reach and athleticism and add a lot of muscle in the right areas, how could you not see him having a lot of success at hw. Overeem was always a good striker, he took his striking to way higher levels, but he was never a big ko guy at lhw and look at him now. legs, back, shoulders, and core. Jones adds some solid muscle there he could be a beast.

Jones is just as physically talented if not more than anybody in mma, including lesnar. Imo they are the top2 in that category.

Don't underrate Timmay's sprawl. He didn't have much else going on, but the sprawl & jab strategy was effective.

Agree on everything, but Lennox & the Klitchko's never had to deal with bigger wrestlers shooting on them constantly. In general they have the strength advantage over their opponents as well. I'm going to enjoy David Haye's brutal retirement party this summer.

And hopefully Bones doesn't put on muscle the same way Ubereem did.

GSPvsSILVA2012
04-14-2011, 06:06 AM
Size does matter and it matters a lot when it comes to a LHW fighting a HW. Lesnar is not Shogun or Bader, he does not walk around at 220 or so. He walks around at 285-300. He is a god damn monster and oh yea... he is a BETTER wrestler then Jones. He also won a NJCAA title and was a NCAA D1 champion. Jones also wouldn't have the reach advantage against Lesnar that he does other fighters.

Everyone needs to back up on the Jones hype train, he hasn't even defended his title once yet. Yet people for some reason want to say he can crush Lesnar and make a run at Cain. Guess what, Cain and Lesnar would put Jones in the hospital for an extended period of time and its part of the reason why we have wieght classes.

The OLD Lesnar walked around at 285-300. He is now walking around at 265-270. Lesnar is a better wrestler according to "credentials." Why we should back up on the "hype train" when that's what you've been telling us since Vera was supposed to expose him several fights ago? Bones is just the man I'm done fighting it, eventually you'll have to as well.

Kimbo> Rampage
04-14-2011, 06:38 AM
Don't underrate Timmay's sprawl. He didn't have much else going on, but the sprawl & jab strategy was effective.

Agree on everything, but Lennox & the Klitchko's never had to deal with bigger wrestlers shooting on them constantly. In general they have the strength advantage over their opponents as well. I'm going to enjoy David Haye's brutal retirement party this summer.

And hopefully Bones doesn't put on muscle the same way Ubereem did.

:grinsmile1: david's retirement party.


Why would putting on muscle like overeem not be beneficial for jones, he doesnt need it now, but it would only help if he fought at hw. Jones is lankey just like overeem was(im sure stronger) and lhw overeem wasnt known for his power, now look at him, he can get a KTFO with any strike he throws. The way overeem put all that muscle on in the short amount of time makes me question how he did it... but it can be done.

Adambomb
04-14-2011, 04:24 PM
:grinsmile1: david's retirement party.


Why would putting on muscle like overeem not be beneficial for jones, he doesnt need it now, but it would only help if he fought at hw. Jones is lankey just like overeem was(im sure stronger) and lhw overeem wasnt known for his power, now look at him, he can get a KTFO with any strike he throws. The way overeem put all that muscle on in the short amount of time makes me question how he did it... but it can be done.

I meant I hope Bones isn't roided out of his mind if/when he does move up.