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LefthookStcrook
06-25-2011, 01:11 AM
Chris Leben or Wanderlei Silva?

Wanderlei is a Black belt. Leben, as far as I know isnt. Leben has 6 submissions to his credit, while Wandy only has 3.

Both guys like to stand and bang, but who would you give the "BJJ edge" to?


Heres a few more Ive been thinking about.

Lil Nog or Rich Franklin?
Ben Henderson or Jim Miller?
GSP or Jon Fitch?

Im sure theres more close matchups.

Id go with:
Leben
Franklin
Miller
GSP

Thoughts?

WileyThaOne
06-25-2011, 01:25 AM
Silva
Nog
Miller
GSP

IceCold48
06-25-2011, 01:46 AM
nog and franklin? are you serious? nog is one of the top black blets in bjj. franklin very had much to offer in the grappling department.

TBEAR
06-25-2011, 01:50 AM
nog and franklin? are you serious? nog is one of the top black blets in bjj. franklin very had much to offer in the grappling department.


While I agree Nog has better BJJ, you are underestimating Rich ALOT. Rich has a very soild grappling game.



My answers are

Silva
Nog
Miller
GSP

optimusjoel
06-25-2011, 02:28 AM
Franklin has amazing sub defense.

The8thPlague
06-25-2011, 04:47 AM
Silva
Nog
Miller
GSP
Yes.


nog and franklin? are you serious? nog is one of the top black blets in bjj.
Yes again.

dbader08
06-25-2011, 05:02 AM
Wandy, especially as far as transitioning and scrambling ability goes. Your going to have to be extremely slick to catch him in a submission, and it doesn't take someone with very slick bjj to submit Chris, as Rosholt and Mcdonald proved. Wandy's had fights where he's had submissions and just let them go, he just prefers to hit people in the face.

I pretty much agree with everyone as far as the other picks, Lil Nog has better bjj than Franklin by a considerable margin imo, I guarantee you Rich wouldn't be able to neutralize Phil Davis' top game 100% like Lil Nog did. Lutter would have submitted him if he had a better armbar, dude always fails when going for an arm, no way he would ever get Lil Nog in that position. Submitting Dan Henderson is a hell of a feat, even if it was years ago. I remember when Rich took Anderson down in their 2nd fight, he was totally neutralized once it hit the ground, something tells me thats because he was already used to rolling with fighters who had better bjj (Lil Nog being one of them).

snakebite
06-25-2011, 06:11 AM
This is kinda a fail thread not to be rude. Silva a brazillian national witha bjj blackbelt or leben?! Cmon bro silva's jitz is sick he just obviously chooses not to go that route. and nog and Franklin?! Lil nog?! Big nogs twin brother?! I think veryone in the world knows the answer to that question.

LefthookStcrook
06-25-2011, 06:47 AM
nog and franklin? are you serious? nog is one of the top black blets in bjj. franklin very had much to offer in the grappling department.

Lol funny you mentioned that, A black belt isnt all you need to hold a edge imo.

But I thought it would make for some good talk, for some reason I find Wandys offensive JJ overhyped, lol by the talks of a Black belt. That was my main reason for creating the thread with Wandy/Leben.

Wandy obviously holds a JJ blackbelt, does that automatically give him the edge over Leben? who hold twice as many subs as him? I dont think its as cut and dry as that myself.

As far as Franklin/Lil Nog goes, its alot closer then you may think(imo of course). Franklin has 10 subs to his credit...while Lil nog has 6..almost half.

If you think Franklin is outclassed thats cool, why not put some effort into explaing your thoughts instead of basically just saying "Are you serious?, you have no idea what you're talking about"

Its called a discussion thread for a reason lol. I actually think Lil Nog/Frankling is alot closer then Leben/Wandy now that Im thinking about it.



IMO, the people picking Silva for the BJJ edge are either HUGE fans, or HUGE Pride lovers. The thing is....Im both lol, and I dont see how Silva has a JJ edge over Leben myself.

I only know of one legit sub win Wandy has, A RNC in the opening round of the 2000 GP.

So then I thought of a few Chris Leben subs, Akiyama, and Edwin Dewees. Both are pretty sketchy to say the least. Both are from the bottom, an armbar and a triangle. Also, at the very start of Chris Leben's career he had 9 wins, 4 via subs.

That "shows me" that Chris Leben is more comfortable going for subs off his back, and ultimatly more capable of pulling off a sub.

IF it goes in that direction, mighty big if, again its all discussion lol.


Wandy, especially as far as transitioning and scrambling ability goes. Your going to have to be extremely slick to catch him in a submission, and it doesn't take someone with very slick bjj to submit Chris, as Rosholt and Mcdonald proved. Wandy's had fights where he's had submissions and just let them go, he just prefers to hit people in the face

There we go thats better lol. As far as Rosholt and Mcdonald go, Mcdonald is(imo) one of the better JJ artist at MW. And Rosholt..what can I say lol, Rosholt beat his ass for sure, but tbh I think Leben was in a fucked up place at the time, I'm not going to make excuses but I dont think that fight would go the exact same in a rematch.

Good point about the transistion and scrambling, I find Leben is pretty good at getting back up to his feet when hes got the gas, his wrestling background isnt the most horrible. I wonder how that whole portion of the fight would play out.

As far as being extremly slick..I can agree to an extent. I cant see many people catching a fresh Wandy in the 1st.... I guess im picturing more of a 3rd round, bloody, tired battle finishing in a sub, much like Leben/Akiyama tbh.

Im just going by what I got to go by, past fights. And(to me) Leben seems way more comfortable at attempting subs, especially off his back. And with 5 armbars and 1 Triangle..compared to Wandys one RNC.. I gotta give the edge to Leben.


Franklin has amazing sub defense.
you are underestimating Rich ALOT
Thank you lol thats what im saying.

Lil nog hasnt been sub'd in almost 25 fights....no easy feat for damn sure. Rich Franklin has gone on a 34-fight streak without getting sub'd...again its much closer then people think.

Chute_Boxe44
06-25-2011, 06:48 AM
This is kinda a fail thread not to be rude. Silva a brazillian national witha bjj blackbelt or leben?! Cmon bro silva's jitz is sick he just obviously chooses not to go that route. and nog and Franklin?! Lil nog?! Big nogs twin brother?! I think veryone in the world knows the answer to that question.

haha come on now my boy Lefthook is just trying to keep discussion going. I personally love threads like this

My list would be:

SIlva - Come on now, check the AV haha
Lil Nog - Franklin has great defense but hasnt proved much otherwise
Miller - Big fan of this cat and would never doubt him, no matter how good someones guillotine is
GSP - At least he can finish fights with it haha

Cat--Smasher
06-25-2011, 06:49 AM
Franklin has amazing sub defense.

According to UFC 2010 Undisputed that is!

mma #1 fan
06-25-2011, 07:07 AM
This is kinda a fail thread not to be rude. Silva a brazillian national witha bjj blackbelt or leben?! Cmon bro silva's jitz is sick he just obviously chooses not to go that route. and nog and Franklin?! Lil nog?! Big nogs twin brother?! I think veryone in the world knows the answer to that question.

1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.
2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees
3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

TapOut27
06-25-2011, 08:46 AM
In an mma fight BJJ isn't always used to set up a sub. Saying Lil Nogs BJJ is close to franklins is a little far fetched. Franklin is good on the ground, as gurgel has made him completely competent. But Nog is pretty sick with his BJJ. It's easier to defend at the top levels of the game than to attack and lose position. Shit, Mir was scared to death to go to the ground with big Nog in their fight, and alot of people think of Mir as a beast on te ground (I don't). And Wanderlei is a solid blackbelt, and uses it for defensive purposes only as he has said in many interviews. He knows what the Fuck to do but chooses to practice BJJ to get him back to his feet to KTFO of you.

Sakara=Excitement
06-25-2011, 09:14 AM
Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

LefthookStcrook
06-25-2011, 09:37 AM
1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.

2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees

3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

Thank you! lol Its not as cut and dry as "Wandy has a Black belt, /thread"

Imo, People overate Silvas JJ because "he chooses to stand and bang"...Funny thing is, Lebens JJ is Underrated..and he chooses this very same gameplan lol.

Thats why I chose this perticular matchup. Im glad someone sees it clearly lol.


It's easier to defend at the top levels of the game than to attack and lose position..

I just want to make sure I understand you right, but are you saying the reason Lil nog doesnt have no many subs...is because its easier to defend then attack?

Yes or no...At the end of the day, Rich Franklin has Attempted, Finished, and Escaped from more submission attempts then Lil nog. (Id bet, thats a fact, just too lazy to do all the lagwork lol)



And Wanderlei is a solid blackbelt, and uses it for defensive purposes only as he has said in many interviews. He knows what the Fuck to do but chooses to practice BJJ to get him back to his feet to KTFO of you

To me thats the beauty of the question.

-Both guys aim to stand and KO the other guy.
-One has a BJJ Blackbelt with 3submissions(really 1)
-The other doesnt have a BJJ Blackbelt, but has 6 submissions.

That equals an Automatic "Wandy hands down" response?

As I said above, At the end of the day Leben has Attempted and Finished more Sub attempts the Wandy..he hasnt escaped from as many as Wandy, to his credit.

Again, these matchups are alot closer then people are thinking.(imo)

I dont get how the fact of a BJJ blackbelt, somehow automatically trumps previous results and stats? :rtrp: lol. IF Leben got his BJJ blackbelt last year..would the response be an Automatic Leben lol?

LefthookStcrook
06-25-2011, 09:40 AM
Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

Thank you! Another person who sees it clearly lol.

Wandy is my #2 all-time favourite fighter behind Chuck, So this isnt my attempt to bash him or anything. But I can still be a huge fan of a fighter and still admit their flaws....(*Cough*Pashak :D lol)

dbader08
06-25-2011, 09:56 AM
Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

Saying Wandy's in fight bjj isn't that good at all isn't a very accurate statement imo. Wandy has always displayed solid BJJ. You pretty much never see Wanderlei in a disadvantageous position on the ground, and when he is, he retains guard pretty quickly. Bisping has a pretty good top game, and he had no success against Wandy when they went to the ground and was in a very tight guillotine at the end of one of the rounds in their fight, then the bell sounded. I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy. The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj.

His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters, but thats part of being a fighter, showing up in great shape for every fight. Wandy has a much better scrambling ability to due to his better conditioning, which is a large part of what bjj is. Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is. Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously.

Sakara=Excitement
06-25-2011, 10:43 AM
Saying Wandy's in fight bjj isn't that good at all isn't a very accurate statement imo. Wandy has always displayed solid BJJ. You pretty much never see Wanderlei in a disadvantageous position on the ground, and when he is, he retains guard pretty quickly. Bisping has a pretty good top game, and he had no success against Wandy when they went to the ground and was in a very tight guillotine at the end of one of the rounds in their fight, then the bell sounded. I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy. The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj.

His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters, but thats part of being a fighter, showing up in great shape for every fight. Wandy has a much better scrambling ability to due to his better conditioning, which is a large part of what bjj is. Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is. Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously.

All good points.

Only point I would like to touch on is the Rosholt sub loss. Leben was coming off a long lay off and completely gassed in that fight.

But I agree that Wandy has solid defensive JJ but as far as offensively, I give the edge to Leben just from what I've seen in their fights. So I guess then it's a wash, lol.

Wandy crushes Leben's chin anyhow.

braddahmatt
06-25-2011, 02:45 PM
Now first off... you cant say someones jiu jitsu is better or even comparable because they have submitted so and so number of fighters. Who are these fighters they are submitting? Fighters who have no idea what they are doing on the ground? Rich Franklin has never submitted a top fighter and only has one submission since being in the UFC.

and p.s. Ben Henderson shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Miller when it comes to jiu jitsu... I'd be pissed if I was Jim Miller

TapOut27
06-25-2011, 05:32 PM
Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.

LefthookStcrook
06-25-2011, 08:04 PM
I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy.

Fair enough, I still think the Rosholt fight would go differently, and Jmac(imo) is probabley one of the top 5-7 JJ guys at MW(without thinking too hard about it lol)

But I guess I can agree with this, props for taking the time to actually post a reason, a good one at that.



The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj

Again, some good points. I still think its relativley close though. Leben has 32 fights, been sub twice, fought some good grapplers in Pat Healy, Joe Doerkson, Edwin Dewees, Jason Mcdonald and Akiyama.

Now before anyone says"They're not the calibur of JJ fighters that Arona or Sakuraba are!"...remember that we're talking about JJ in an MMA match. And maybe its just me, but im a stats and numbers type of guy when it comes to my sports.

All of those 5 fighters I mentioned have 50% or more of their wins by submissions. And out of those 5 fighters they have over 200 combined fights(211 actually), only 15 of them have ended by them getting submitted.

My point is, while they may have never held a UFC or Pride title, or had a crazy fan following, that doesnt make them any less of a threat in the JJ department. Stats dont lie, those fighters that Leben fought maybe arn't the best grapplers in the game, but they're certaintly above avergage to good JJ practictioners.(imo of course)


His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters

Again dude im a HUGE Wandy fan, but I can admit Ive seen him "worn down" as you put it. I dont really feel like sifting through and re-watching a bunch of fights right now but im sure I could name a few fights where its late in the fight, and Wandy is just lumbering forward, hands low, swinging hooks...sounds alot like Leben tbh lol.


Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is

Again, ive seen both Wandy and Leben in bloody wars where(I think) they didnt have as much pep in the 3rd as they did in the 1st. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility that Wandy/Leben have a fast paced epic 1st round, which leads to a bloody slower 2nd round, which leads to a 3rd round running on the bottom of the tank.


Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously

Its called a discussion thread for a reason dude, we can talk about dreamatches that will never happen for pages, but I shouldnt start a discussion about who has better jj?

And if I do, and disagree with someone opinions, eventho I back it up I shouldnt be taken seriously?



Rich Franklin has never submitted a top fighter and only has one submission since being in the UFC.

and p.s. Ben Henderson shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Miller when it comes to jiu jitsu... I'd be pissed if I was Jim Miller

I didnt really want to get into every fighter that each fighter fought lol, more of who I thought was more comfortable going for submissions.

As far as Miller/Henderson. 8 out Henderson's 10 stoppages have been by submission(80%). Miller has 14 stoppages with 11 by subs(78.5%)......They "shouldnt be metioned in the same breath"?..And your sure about that lol?


Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.

Thank you! lol. Add in everything I mentioned in the paragraph above this and I say its worth a discussion ffs lol Henderson is a Brown belt under John Crouth. (who got his Blackbelt training from the man Royce himself.)

Miller is a Black belt under JamieCruz. Henderson has a slightly higher submission ratio....I think that classifies as "pretty close" myself.



Shit I had this convo with my buddy for like an hour the other day lol, try to bring it here and it gets shutdown like it makes no sense. I dont understand why, but its all good :D.

TapOut27
06-25-2011, 08:32 PM
Also I must say that I don't think a person having more submission wins in MMA means they are better at BJJ.

Mac
06-25-2011, 08:51 PM
The only close call on these would be GSP/Fitch and it would still go to GSP. The other 3 are obvious.

dbader08
06-25-2011, 09:02 PM
Didn't mean to come off as a prick lefthook lol but to me I clearly believe Wandy holds a slight edge in the overall jiujitsu game. That last sentence was a bit uncalled for...but...BJJ is about much more than submissions, especially in an mma match. Alot of guys are more susceptible to being submitted after taking damage but Wandy isn't one of them imo.Even when we've seen Wandy tired, he's never been close to being submitted. He also never comes in as bad as Leben looked against Rosholt. Against Henderson in their 2nd fight he was slow, but as you probably know too, the word is he was pretty sick for that fight.

Out of all Edwin Dewees submissions, none of them are against anyone whos anywhere close to being a cop calibre opponent. Joe Doerkson is a very good bjj fighter but did they even go to the ground in their fight? I haven't seen it...
Chris Leben does have an unpredictable guard and its really pretty solid..but still...I just see Wandy having an advantage there. The punches he used against Akiyama to set up that triangle, I hope you know those would have no effect on Wandy lol

To be honest, though, lefthook, Ben Henderson is a machine. He is strong enough to power out of alot of shit, but as far as technique goes, Miller is better. Then again, I've seen Jacare power out of alot of shit in BJJ competetions, so its just part of the game I guess. I still think Millers is better, though. Being able to submit guys like Varner and Cerrone with guillotines is cool and all, but its just not going to be near that easy against the top guys at the weight class.

braddahmatt
06-26-2011, 12:22 AM
As far as Miller/Henderson. 8 out Henderson's 10 stoppages have been by submission(80%). Miller has 14 stoppages with 11 by subs(78.5%)......They "shouldnt be metioned in the same breath"?..And your sure about that lol?



Thank you! lol. Add in everything I mentioned in the paragraph above this and I say its worth a discussion ffs lol Henderson is a Brown belt under John Crouth. (who got his Blackbelt training from the man Royce himself.)

Miller is a Black belt under JamieCruz. Henderson has a slightly higher submission ratio....I think that classifies as "pretty close" myself.

Not trying to shut it down... but again, most of the people Ben has submitted have no business being on the ground at all except Cerrone who still isn't really that good on the ground but he is decent. Miller submitted Oliveira who has outstanding jiu jitsu.

Don't get me wrong... Ben Henderson has a good ground game but I think its more because of his strength over everyone in the lightweight and his wrestling ability. He's not very technical and gets caught a lot in some deep subs but just doesn't tap.

initial_zen
06-26-2011, 06:52 AM
1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.
2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees
3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

i dont think silva has ever been subbed has he? He may not sub people but thats because he uses his bjj usually strictly for defensive purposes and to get back to his feet, much like how chuck used his good wrestling to keep it standing. And silva is a legit black belt, its not just a bs one. Here's a vid of him training with vitor vianna who is pretty decorated in bjj and he holds his own... in a gi.

YouTube - ‪Wand vs Vitor Vianna‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoS4qZO-zz0&feature=player_embedded)

trustkill
06-28-2011, 11:04 PM
Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.

The Ben Henderson vs Jim Miller discussion interests me the most. I was MOST impressed with Henderson's performance during the Bocek fight, but I think that Miller's boxing will be the difference. I'm no jits expert, so I'm waiting for this to play out in the octagon, but it's a question I've asked myself, nonetheless. I'm hoping to see lots of scrambles with these two.