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View Full Version : Dennis Hallman Defends Nate Marquart (well...sort of)



joeodd2
07-09-2011, 04:56 PM
Did anyone watch Inside MMA last night? Dennis Hallman really came to the defense of HRT and argued with most of the panel about it's legetimacy in sports. Even hinting that he might be on some form of HRT. Unlike his admittedly ignorant statement a few months ago, when he said 50% of fighters were on PEDs. Hallman actually broke down and explained the science behind some of the causes of low testosorone. He made an intelligent and clear distinction between willful cheating using steriods and having high levels of testosone.

Here's one question no has asked yet. How much over the allowable range was Nate? was he over be a couple hundred percent or maybe just 20 or 10 percent? Was it more like missing weight by 2 pounds or 20 pounds? If it was close to the allowable range and he missed it, i don't think it should have been treated any differently than missing weight by 2 pounds. He should have been fined but not fired.

I don't even think the UFC knows how much he missed it by, nor does Dana care, cause Dana never really liked the guy anyway. I think Dana has gone out of his way to say that Nate cheated on purpose, without actually saying it. And that's a shame, because if you look at the 2, and I only count 2 instances where Nate had been in trouble. The first one very well could have been a supplement or combination of supplements he took from GNC or some other mainstream supplement store. He wasn't the first fighter or athlete to get burned like that. And the HRT scandal could have simply been him following doctors orders and not paying attention to his levels prior to the fight. The end result is still the same whether or not Nate ever intentionally cheated, that's kind of the sad part of this story. He will forever be haunted by the label "cheater", regardless of whether he made a conscious decision or effort to cheat.

CtGreat
07-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Did anyone watch Inside MMA last night? Dennis Hallman really came to the defense of HRT and argued with most of the panel about it's legetimacy in sports. Even hinting that he might be on some form of HRT. Unlike his admittedly ignorant statement a few months ago, when he said 50% of fighters were on PEDs. Hallman actually broke down and explained the science behind some of the causes of low testosorone. He made an intelligent and clear distinction between willful cheating using steriods and having high levels of testosone.

Here's one question no has asked yet. How much over the allowable range was Nate? was he over be a couple hundred percent or maybe just 20 or 10 percent? Was it more like missing weight by 2 pounds or 20 pounds? If it was close to the allowable range and he missed it, i don't think it should have been treated any differently than missing weight by 2 pounds. He should have been fined but not fired.

I don't even think the UFC knows how much he missed it by, nor does Dana care, cause Dana never really liked the guy anyway. I think Dana has gone out of his way to say that Nate cheated on purpose, without actually saying it. And that's a shame, because if you look at the 2, and I only count 2 instances where Nate had been in trouble. The first one very well could have been a supplement or combination of supplements he took from GNC or some other mainstream supplement store. He wasn't the first fighter or athlete to get burned like that. And the HRT scandal could have simply been him following doctors orders and not paying attention to his levels prior to the fight. The end result is still the same whether or not Nate ever intentionally cheated, that's kind of the sad part of this story. He will forever be haunted by the label "cheater", regardless of whether he made a conscious decision or effort to cheat.

He said that he knew long in advance that it was over the legal limit, and he had been trying to get it down....so does it even matter? Its not only fight day that matters, the fact that he could have been was abusing this stuff throughout his entire training camp with abnormally high levels and then tried to get them lowered by fight time but failed, thats whats so effed up about it.

Also, Nate had the label of "cheater" long before this incident, 3rd strike man, and if you read the other topic about how he never even filed his HRT papers for the Miller fight, its pretty clear why this whole situation with him is so bad.

joeodd2
07-09-2011, 08:14 PM
Really? The miller fight, he was allowed by the commission to fight, so how exactly is that a strike. Sounds more like paperwork confusion to me, since that commission DID know as well as the UFC, about the HRT. Once you get caught up in the "details" things become less black and white. Of course the court of public opinion doesn't go by facts rather than consensus and opinion. If Dana had to go to court and prove Nate intentionally cheated 4 times as he eluded to in an interview. Could he win?

IceCold48
07-09-2011, 08:16 PM
it wouldve saved you a lot of time to just post the link in the video section

Bas Rutten Takes a Stand on Steroids in MMA – Inside MMA – HDNet (http://www.hd.net/blogs/bas-rutten-takes-a-stand-one-steroids-in-mma-inside-mma/)

and he wasnt defending nate at all he was defending himself because he has some liver disease. he criticized nate for not getting his levels tested enough to make sure he was at the right amount.

this thread should probably be noob jacked or have a title change or something.

CtGreat
07-09-2011, 08:24 PM
Really? The miller fight, he was allowed by the commission to fight, so how exactly is that a strike. Sounds more like paperwork confusion to me, since that commission DID know as well as the UFC, about the HRT. Once you get caught up in the "details" things become less black and white. Of course the court of public opinion doesn't go by facts rather than consensus and opinion. If Dana had to go to court and prove Nate intentionally cheated 4 times as he eluded to in an interview. Could he win?

Nate Marquardt Never Applied for TUE in Pennsylvania, Still Suspended - Bloody Elbow (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/7/6/2261556/nate-marquardt-never-applied-for-tue-in-pennsylvania-still-suspended)

The facts are, HRT should never make your testosterone levels go so far above normal that it takes you weeks to come down. Hell, they should never go above normal PERIOD, even in the early stages, they give you below the estimated dosage because they dont want to overmedicate you. TRT is utilized to return levels to normal, should never raise them above normal. Stupidity is not an excuse for a professional fighter.

joeodd2
07-09-2011, 08:36 PM
it wouldve saved you a lot of time to just post the link in the video section

Bas Rutten Takes a Stand on Steroids in MMA Inside MMA HDNet (http://www.hd.net/blogs/bas-rutten-takes-a-stand-one-steroids-in-mma-inside-mma/)

and he wasnt defending nate at all he was defending himself because he has some liver disease. he criticized nate for not getting his levels tested enough to make sure he was at the right amount.

this thread should probably be noob jacked or have a title change or something.

I did say "sort of" which and explained that he defended the legitmacy of HRT in MMA. If you listen to the interview, he did seem to defend Nate and Chael regarding the legit need for the therapy. He did point out that Nate should have tested his levels well before the fight. At worst, Nate should have pulled out of the fight a week or two before, just to be safe. He played a dangerous game, and might have lost by inches. I did hear that his levels were normal the day of the fight, but I'd have to dig around to confirm that for sure. Bottom line, is that if his levels were normal the day of the fight, it stands to reason that he wasn't too far off the mark when he failed his medicals. Perhaps not far enough to actually have any significant impact on the fight. Personally I think it would have had zero impact on whether or not he one or lost against Story. Just one of those technical things in my view. STERIODS is a whole nother beast and debate as to whether or not he abused PEDs in the past. Personally I'd be amazed if half the fighters abuse PEDs on purpose, they might just take something from GNC and hope for the best, because they don't know where to go or can't afford to have their supplements tested.

I think Bas Rutten is a bit behind the times when it comes to diet and training. These days most MMA fighters are using high performance suppliments to push their bodies harder than fighters in the past. The training tears up their bodies, there's no debate about that. I personally think, and I believe most fighters feel the same way. That using something to recover from an injury, should be allowed. The UFC should also have classes on safe and legal ways fighters can recover from intense training, making it less tempting for them to take PEDs to recover. Hell they had a seminar on sexual harassment. The UFC should take the lead and provide resources like that to fighters, Meathead had an excellent suggestion last week on inside MMA. He spoke of a hotline that NFL players could call to get info on supplement ingredients. Now that's something the UFC could put in place next week if they wanted to. Right now the UFC asks for so much from fighters in terms of performance, it seems to be more of a "just dont get caught" mentality rather than educating fighters on how to train and take care of their bodies the right way.

Y2JUBAE
07-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Hallman is an idiot. Wtf does he think a limit means? It means that that is the limit, not a few over, but that.

Mac
07-09-2011, 08:50 PM
this thread should probably be noob jacked or have a title change or something.

Couldn't agree more.

joeodd2
07-09-2011, 09:06 PM
btw I disagree with having my thread "noobjacked". When you compare this thread to the tread where BJ Penn ignorantly rips HRT and Dan Hardy flat out calls Nate a cheat. Hallman does appear to defend Nate to a certain degree, even if its only the legit need for a fighter to have this kind of therapy. But whatever.

Mac
07-09-2011, 09:56 PM
btw I disagree with having my thread "noobjacked". When you compare this thread to the tread where BJ Penn ignorantly rips HRT and Dan Hardy flat out calls Nate a cheat. Hallman does appear to defend Nate to a certain degree, even if its only the legit need for a fighter to have this kind of therapy. But whatever.

The difference is the other threads were presented as what the fighter was actually saying, you presented this a defense for Nate in a roundabout way. I didn't watch the show but it seems to me he was pointing out what HRT is about and wasn't out to defend Nate but your title indicates otherwise. It seems to me you are putting words in Hallman's mouth.

IceCold48
07-09-2011, 10:05 PM
I did say "sort of" which and explained that he defended the legitmacy of HRT in MMA. If you listen to the interview, he did seem to defend Nate and Chael regarding the legit need for the therapy. He did point out that Nate should have tested his levels well before the fight. At worst, Nate should have pulled out of the fight a week or two before, just to be safe. He played a dangerous game, and might have lost by inches. I did hear that his levels were normal the day of the fight, but I'd have to dig around to confirm that for sure. Bottom line, is that if his levels were normal the day of the fight, it stands to reason that he wasn't too far off the mark when he failed his medicals. Perhaps not far enough to actually have any significant impact on the fight. Personally I think it would have had zero impact on whether or not he one or lost against Story. Just one of those technical things in my view. STERIODS is a whole nother beast and debate as to whether or not he abused PEDs in the past. Personally I'd be amazed if half the fighters abuse PEDs on purpose, they might just take something from GNC and hope for the best, because they don't know where to go or can't afford to have their supplements tested.

I think Bas Rutten is a bit behind the times when it comes to diet and training. These days most MMA fighters are using high performance suppliments to push their bodies harder than fighters in the past. The training tears up their bodies, there's no debate about that. I personally think, and I believe most fighters feel the same way. That using something to recover from an injury, should be allowed. The UFC should also have classes on safe and legal ways fighters can recover from intense training, making it less tempting for them to take PEDs to recover. Hell they had a seminar on sexual harassment. The UFC should take the lead and provide resources like that to fighters, Meathead had an excellent suggestion last week on inside MMA. He spoke of a hotline that NFL players could call to get info on supplement ingredients. Now that's something the UFC could put in place next week if they wanted to. Right now the UFC asks for so much from fighters in terms of performance, it seems to be more of a "just dont get caught" mentality rather than educating fighters on how to train and take care of their bodies the right way.

how does saying he was completely wrong mean sort of defending him?

Spoon
07-09-2011, 10:12 PM
I did say "sort of" which and explained that he defended the legitmacy of HRT in MMA. If you listen to the interview, he did seem to defend Nate and Chael regarding the legit need for the therapy. He did point out that Nate should have tested his levels well before the fight. At worst, Nate should have pulled out of the fight a week or two before, just to be safe. He played a dangerous game, and might have lost by inches. I did hear that his levels were normal the day of the fight, but I'd have to dig around to confirm that for sure. Bottom line, is that if his levels were normal the day of the fight, it stands to reason that he wasn't too far off the mark when he failed his medicals. Perhaps not far enough to actually have any significant impact on the fight. Personally I think it would have had zero impact on whether or not he one or lost against Story. Just one of those technical things in my view. STERIODS is a whole nother beast and debate as to whether or not he abused PEDs in the past. Personally I'd be amazed if half the fighters abuse PEDs on purpose, they might just take something from GNC and hope for the best, because they don't know where to go or can't afford to have their supplements tested.

I think Bas Rutten is a bit behind the times when it comes to diet and training. These days most MMA fighters are using high performance suppliments to push their bodies harder than fighters in the past. The training tears up their bodies, there's no debate about that. I personally think, and I believe most fighters feel the same way. That using something to recover from an injury, should be allowed. The UFC should also have classes on safe and legal ways fighters can recover from intense training, making it less tempting for them to take PEDs to recover. Hell they had a seminar on sexual harassment. The UFC should take the lead and provide resources like that to fighters, Meathead had an excellent suggestion last week on inside MMA. He spoke of a hotline that NFL players could call to get info on supplement ingredients. Now that's something the UFC could put in place next week if they wanted to. Right now the UFC asks for so much from fighters in terms of performance, it seems to be more of a "just dont get caught" mentality rather than educating fighters on how to train and take care of their bodies the right way.
He didn't defend Nate or Chael at all. He defended the medical use of HRT. Not once did he say anything about them getting a "bum rap." If anything he made it clear that he thought Nate was in the wrong, for how he and his doctor handled the situation.

Nate's levels weren't "normal" the day of the fight, they were "within range". Yet he and his attorney wouldn't specify what his exact levels were, to actually see if his levels were within who's range. Added on to that, different people have a different opinion of what exactly the "range" is. This was all from the interview he did on MMA Hour, the Tuesday after everything happened. But, to my point... The type of "range" he was being tested for, and would have been legally allowed to fight with, are still above the levels of the average person.

Regardless of how off his levels were on fight day, they were still high during his training camp, at least near the end of it. He still benefited from all the extra testosterone while getting ready for the fight. He still gained a physical advantage in that regards. Fighters don't use them so their levels are high for the fight, to fight better. They know full well they are getting tested before and after the fight. The whole point of using steroids is to use them in preparation for the fight; improving their strength, speed and conditioning, from working out hard before the fight. So he certainly would have had an advantage in the Story fight, verses having truly normal levels his entire camp.

They also do have a seminar, discussing steroids. If the fighters don't know, or have the info, on how to deal with injuries or hard training recovery, then they are freaking morons. They are professional athletes, not some random person at a small local gym. It's their business to get educated about everything health and rule related. Plus there's the internet. If they don't know something, or know someone who knows something, they can always look it up themselves. If they don't know what's in a supplement mix, then they shouldn't take it. Find something that lists all it's contents. That's their problem, not the promotion's.

Mac
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
I am no expert on this but from what I've read it seems to me that HRT is mostly for kids with health problems. I just don't understand how so many elite athletes could be in such a need of it. It doesn't seem logical to me but as I said, I am no expert.

Leucoethiops
07-09-2011, 10:18 PM
And that's a shame, because if you look at the 2, and I only count 2 instances where Nate had been in trouble. The first one very well could have been a supplement or combination of supplements he took from GNC or some other mainstream supplement store.

First off, Nandrolone was banned in the 90's, like, a full decade before Nate tested positive for it, so the likelihood of it being found in mainstream supplements would be pretty damn slim. Secondly, the oral bioavailability of nandrolone is nonexistent. If you eat it, your stomach destroys it and it yields no benefit; it has to be taken via intramuscular injection to work. You could actually eat copious amounts of Nandrolone and not test positive for it.

That being said, the pro-hormone precursor to nandrolone was being sold regularly, and legally, when Nate tested positive for it, but pro-hormones were always sold as a standalone product, or in a stack with another pro-hormone (the latter would have little to no androgenic properties to mitigate side effects).

Anyone saying "I didn't know it was in my supplement", or "I didn't know that my liver would enzymatically convert that to a steroid", or "I didn't know what was in that needle I stuck in my bum.", or "I didn't know it was banned" is most likely a liar, or in rare instances, truly ignorant; and ignorance of the law is not a valid reason for breaking it.

At the end of the day, Nate is a professional, and his dealing with the PSAC and his HRT, were decidedly unprofessional, and put a lot of people in a bind just before the show. That's why he's looking for work.

the_dark_angel_4ever
07-09-2011, 10:29 PM
First off, Nandrolone was banned in the 90's, like, a full decade before Nate tested positive for it, so the likelihood of it being found in mainstream supplements would be pretty damn slim. Secondly, the oral bioavailability of nandrolone is nonexistent. If you eat it, your stomach destroys it and it yields no benefit; it has to be taken via intramuscular injection to work. You could actually eat copious amounts of Nandrolone and not test positive for it.

That being said, the pro-hormone precursor to nandrolone was being sold regularly, and legally, when Nate tested positive for it, but pro-hormones were always sold as a standalone product, or in a stack with another pro-hormone (the latter would have little to no androgenic properties to mitigate side effects).

Anyone saying "I didn't know it was in my supplement", or "I didn't know that my liver would enzymatically convert that to a steroid", or "I didn't know what was in that needle I stuck in my bum.", or "I didn't know it was banned" is most likely a liar, or in rare instances, truly ignorant; and ignorance of the law is not a valid reason for breaking it.

At the end of the day, Nate is a professional, and his dealing with the PSAC and his HRT, were decidedly unprofessional, and put a lot of people in a bind just before the show. That's why he's looking for work.

Excellent post.

IceCold48
07-09-2011, 10:44 PM
The difference is the other threads were presented as what the fighter was actually saying, you presented this a defense for Nate in a roundabout way. I didn't watch the show but it seems to me he was pointing out what HRT is about and wasn't out to defend Nate but your title indicates otherwise. It seems to me you are putting words in Hallman's mouth.

look at the link i posted on the first page, he is completely putting words in hallman's mouth and i hate hallman so im just just kissing his ass.

CRisCO
07-11-2011, 07:47 PM
hallman is a frequent PED user himself.


I could easily see him needing TRT from all the years of abuse