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View Full Version : Dissecting the Fedor "GOAT Legacy".



The8thPlague
08-06-2011, 11:47 AM
Let me start this off by saying I AM a Fedor nut hugger.
But I have always been open about criticism towards his career, his legacy, his GOAT comments.

After watching this interview:
Mauro Ranallo with Dana White | Video | theScore (http://video.thescore.com/watch/mauro-ranallo-with-dana-white)
and listening to some of the things Dana had to say, I really wanted to go back and look at the career of The Last Emperor & really see if he lives/lived up to the hype.

I'm gonna try to make it quick and painless.

So I'll start with this.........

The "And Who Are You?" List of opponents:

1. Martin Lazarov,
2. Levon Lagvilava,
3. Hiroya Takada,
4. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka x2,
5. Mihail Apostolov,
6. Ryushi Yanagisawa,
7. Lee Hasdell,
8. Chris Haseman,
9. Egidijus Valavicius,
10. Yuji Nagata,
11. Naoya Ogawa,
12. Wagner da Conceicao Martins.

The "Hey You Were/Are Someone People Pay Attention To" List of opponents:

1. Ricardo Arona,
2. Kerry Schall,
3. Renato Sobral,
4. Semmy Schilt,
5. Heath Herring,
6. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira x3,
7. Kazuyuki Fujita,
8. Gary Goodridge,
9. Mark Coleman x2,
10. Kevin Randleman,
11. Mirko Filipovic,
12. Mark Hunt,
13. Matt Lindland,
14. Hong Man Choi,
15. Tim Sylvia,
16. Andrei Arlovski,
17. Brett Rogers,
18. Fabricio Werdum,
19. Antonio Silva,
20. Dan Henderson.

Now time to dissect the Worthy Opponents:

In the 1.5 years that Fedor fought before going to PRIDE he fought 11 people & only 2 of them went on to do anything worthy in MMA.
1. Ricardo Arona(a Light Heavyweight) - When they fought Ricardo was 2-0 & Fedor was 3-0.
2. Renato Sobral(usually a Light Heavyweight) - When they fought Renato was 21-2 & Fedor was 7-0(I don't count that Cut to Kohsaka as a lose).

Once arriving at Pride he fought(in this order):

Semmy Schilt,
Heath Herring,
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira,
Kazuyuki Fujita,
Gary Goodridge,
Mark Coleman,
Kevin Randleman,
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira,
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira,
Mirko Filipovic,
Mark Coleman,
Mark Hunt.

That was from 2002-2006.
It's a really good progression of Talented Fighters and a fucking Impressive List of WINS.
Although some of those guys aren't really worth a shit now, they were fucking Beasts back then!
Anyone should be proud to have all of those Wins on their record.
At this time FEDOR WAS UNTOUCHABLE! He Could Destroy Worlds!!!

Then "The Legacy" gets tarnished........
Around the time he was done whooping ass in Pride was pretty much the end of Sylvia/Arlovski trilogy. And Randy Couture was getting ready to step back into the UFC to show Big Timmay who the boss was.

UFC needed Fedor at this time(and I'm sure this was one of the times that Dana & M-1 had some negotiating?) and if Fedor was psychic he would have known that He needed the UFC too.

He could have gone on to do amazing things, but instead he did this:

Matt Lindland(a fucking Middleweight for godsake) - beaten in 3 minutes.

Hong Man Choi - With a huge record of 1-0 before fighting Fedor.
Can't forget that the fight he had before Fedor lasted a whole 16 Seconds. LOTS OF EXPERIENCE!!!
Fedor beats him in 2 minutes.

Fedor or His Management pull their head out:

Tim Sylvia - Timmay was still relevant at this point. He didn't make himself look like a fool yet.
So it was good to see Fedor fight someone worthy again.
Fedor beats him in 36 seconds(LIKE A BOSS!)

Now Fedor starts Slipping:

Andrei Arlovski - 15-5 at this point. No longer in the UFC but still fighting people with names(although some weren't as big as his).
Fedor was getting outclassed in this fight. Andrei was just too fast for him & then Andrei got cocky & Fedor made him pay for it 3 minutes & 14 seconds into the fight.
But a chink was in the armor of Fedor after that fight.

Brett Rogers - 10-0 before fighting Fedor. With his most notable win over the man Fedor just knocked down from the sky, Andrei Arlovski.
I was never on the Brett Rogers hype train. Too many cans to be fighting someone like Fedor.
But then he goes on to laying a Whooping on Fedor for the 1st round.
I was Impressed. But eventually Fedor would win... "Fedor always wins."
And he did. But there was now even a bigger chink in his armor. And people were starting to notice.

THE LOSSES:

Fabricio Werdum - even with 3 losses to his name now I think Fedor would win this rematch 8 times out of 10.
He go cocky and got in the guard of one the best Heavyweight Brazilian Jiu Jitsu specialist out there.

Antonio Silva - 15-2 record at the time, with only 4 notable wins to his name.
At this time(2/12/2011) Fedor shouldn't have been fighting someone with 4 notable wins to his name(one of those names in a Lower weight class).
He should have been fighting someone with a 15-2 record that had 10 notable names to his record, like Frank Mir, or at least someone like a Cheick Kongo, Gabriel Gonzaga, or a Ben Rothwell.
But Fedor goes on to fight a "lesser" opponent & SEVERELY gets his ass handed to him. It was Bad!!!
Finally a Lose that No One can say "well he didn't really lose that fight."

So what does one do that has lost 2 fights in a row from people he "should have won against" ?
You fight someone in a lighter weight class.

Dan Henderson - is a fucking beast, no matter how you cut it.
27-8 record before the fight with Fedor. His loses all came from badass dudes that have made their mark in MMA.
He combined all that he saw in Fedor's last 4 fights and brought that into this fight and won.
Although I think it was called about 5 seconds before it should have been called, Hendo probably would have gone on to beat on Fedor some more and win.

So with everything said and done:
Fedor fought 9 Cans EARLY in his career(sounds like Most fighters).
Also fought 2 good fighters, but they were in Lower weight classes.
Then went on to fight 11 fighters that were pretty much on par with him for 4 years & Dominate! But he also fought 5 other Cans in that time frame too.
Once PRIDE ends he fights 2 people "not worthy", 2 people on their downward spiral(which he started off for them), an Up And Comer, and then 3 Loses.

The way I look at it Fedor has:
13 REMARKABLE Wins.
18 Worthless/Whatever Wins.
and
3 Loses
with
2 No Contests(the Cut from Kohsaka I consider a NC).

Is a 13-3 Record bad? NO.
Is a 17-3 Record bad? NO.(added Lindland, Arona, Sobral, & Rogers to it).
Is Fedor gonna go down in History as one of the greatest MMA Fighters of All Time? Probably Not..
Especially when you look at records like Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Frank Mir, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, & Rich Franklin.

Pasha K
08-06-2011, 12:11 PM
Is Fedor gonna go down in History as one of the greatest MMA Fighters of All Time? Probably Not..
Especially when you look at records like Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Frank Mir, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, & Rich Franklin.

oh please come on.
Fedor will not be remembered as one of the GOATs but Frank Mir and Rich Franklin will? LOL

marko
08-06-2011, 12:25 PM
Great post !!! Finally some perspective !

TheKidInside
08-06-2011, 01:21 PM
omfg...yeah so 2 former UFC champs (blame FEDOR FOR ruining their career. yeah it's his fault they suck after Fedor sucked their souls out) and a top 10 ranked HW who was 10-0 with all 10 KOs in the last few years = cans... ARLOVSKI NEVER TOUCHED FEDOR EXCEPT FOR THAT THEEP THAT SET UP HIS OWN KO...THIS HAS BEEN F-ING ARGUED TO DEATH, WITH PICTURES AND SLOW MOTION REPLAYS, GET THIS THROUGH YOUR MOTHERF-ING HEAD...ARLOVSKI...DID...NOT...TOUCH...FEDOR!!!

do you realize that during the years he was fighting there were almost no legit HWs in the world much less the UFC?

your analysis is shit and revisionist history as you do not talk about the state of HWs in the MMA world...

nor the fact that Mirko and Big Nog were the end all be all of HW MMA at the time Fedor destroyed Mirko on the feet and devoured Big Nog's soul on the ground...


At this time(2/12/2011) Fedor shouldn't have been fighting someone with 4 notable wins to his name(one of those names in a Lower weight class).
He should have been fighting someone with a 15-2 record that had 10 notable names to his record, like Frank Mir, or at least someone like a Cheick Kongo, Gabriel Gonzaga, or a Ben Rothwell.

are you on crack rock? On 2/12/2011

Frank Mir was 14-5...his two biggest ones were Brock (let's remember the rematch shall we?) and Big Nog who had a staph infection...

Cheick Kongo was 15-6 with his biggest win against Cro Cop...and Paul Buentello?

...Ben Rothwell :huh:

Tito Ortiz and Frank Mir...GOAT? :laughing4:

Malevolence
08-06-2011, 02:02 PM
You left Zulu off the list.

initial_zen
08-06-2011, 02:06 PM
fedor will remain the goat in my eyes.. The only person i see passing him up soon could be anderson silva

YukonJordan
08-06-2011, 02:12 PM
I think you're definitely wrong. I don't believe that Fedor will be considered the GOAT ( the GOAT hasn't even started MMA yet in my opinion) but when you imply that he's isn't as credible as Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Frank Mir, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, & Rich Franklin you don't do your argument any justice. Nobody on that list has a resume that stands up to criticism the likes of which you just put Fedor's through. The only person fighting right now in the UFC with a legitimate claim for GOAT consideration is GSP.

And here's the intangible side of the argument. It's not just about Fedor's record and who he fought. IT'S HOW HE FOUGHT. Even in his defeats Fedor is a fearless fighter who leaves everything inside the ring/cage and never left the fans with complaints. He fights fighters at their strengths and wins. He fights with no regard for the potential of counter strikes from his looping punches. He is unrelenting. He dives into the guards of elite BJJ practioners. He never talks shit in the media. Every message he ever sent his opponents were sent via his strikes, his grappling and his submissions.

He's a model of what all fighters, nay all men should aspire to be. Humble in both victory and defeat.

Badluck33
08-06-2011, 02:39 PM
miguel torres > fedor on that list.

the_dark_angel_4ever
08-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Fedor is ONE OF the GOAT, but not THE GOAT. Plain and simple. Yes he had a great career but he fought a lot of questionable opponents and that will always be held against him. His legacy would have been best served if he sat out rather than fighting Lindland, HMC, Zulu, Coleman 2x and everyone one of the other fighters on the "Who are you?" list. That's strictly speaking about his legacy though, you can't really fault him as a person or fighter for taking those fights, everyone needs to get paid and earn a living.

dbader08
08-06-2011, 04:15 PM
Fedor and Anderson=the GOATS

Fedor clearly isn't the fighter he used to be, its 2011 you fucktards.

10 years of dominance counts for alot more than some dumb fucking writer to scoff at, plus, most, or at least alot of fighters' records are filled with several no name opponents. Most of those were his first several fights. Are you suppost to be fighting top competetion in your very first pro fight? lol

I think some of his fights were dumb after he was on the top, like zulzuhino and ogawa, but I also think its dumb that Randy Couture was headlining and coheadlining cards against Coleman and Toney. No problem with those fights for "The Natural" and "The UFC hall of famer", huh Dana!

Lazarus
08-06-2011, 04:30 PM
do you realize that during the years he was fighting there were almost no legit HWs in the world much less the UFC?

Are you arguing for or against Fedor's record? :huh:

I'm assuming you are saying Cro Cop and Big Nog are the "legit" hw's and the rest are not? So Fedor has 3 wins out of thirty-some wins that are "legit" and the rest are questionable?

Not sure I follow your logic...:grinsmile1:

Ramma
08-06-2011, 04:37 PM
Very flawed concept I hate to say. Do you have any idea how many records start with tons of cans with a name thrown in somewhere in the middle? Brock Lesnar is about the only guy with a record of almost all familiar names.

Is Fedor gonna go down in History as one of the greatest MMA Fighters of All Time? Probably Not..
Especially when you look at records like Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Frank Mir, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, & Rich Franklin.
Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Franklin, Anderson, Couture, etc. all have records that start out with a record of 5 to 10 nobodies with a someday sprinkled somewhere in there. And chances are, they lost to that somebody (Liddell to Horn, Jackson to Eastman, for example). That's the case for MOST fighters who started fighting from 1999-2004. Most of the people on that list have lost to nobodies or B list fighters at best as well.

Ahhh, the icing on the cake. If there is one man's record to prove to the world that Fedor is not the greatest, it is the wonderful record of Tito Ortiz. Be serious, are you trolling? Tito Ortiz has wins over a handful of good fighters at best (Belfort, Tanner and Silva come to mind) with a adorable record of 16-8

That's a very weak argument. By your logic, Anderson doesn't deserve to be G.O.A.T. either.

dbader08
08-06-2011, 04:50 PM
Frank Mir, Rich Franklin, TITO ORTIZ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Rampage will probably be comparable when its all said and done though and obviously anderson silva. GSP is right up there with him as is Anderson.

VimyRidge
08-06-2011, 05:12 PM
I also don't think Tiger Woods was ever that good a golfer, look how he has been doing in the last couple of years

IceCold48
08-06-2011, 05:18 PM
why is this noob jack?

Pasha K
08-06-2011, 08:45 PM
why is this noob jack?

Because you can not take serioulsy a guy that says Fedor has fought bad competition and should have faced Rothwell or Kongo instead LMFAO

He also says that Fedor will not be remembered as one of the GOATS, however Frank Mir, Franklin or Tito will.

Trodden
08-06-2011, 09:04 PM
why are we arguing over the concept of greatest of all time, in a sport that's just, relatively speaking, starting out. MMA has been in the public's eyes for less ten years or so. most people have known about MMA for less then a year or two (I'm talking to you James Toney). We might as well argue who is the best fighter under the age of five. I think anyone would agree that Fedor was the best in the early days of MMA. It has evolved that fighters such as GSP and Anderson Silva are the GOAT's of the current stage of MMA. what we should be debating is who has the chance of being the greatest in the next 5-10 years, of whom is currently fighting. I would have to nominate Jim Miller. Maybe even JDS

The8thPlague
08-06-2011, 11:15 PM
Fedor will not be remembered as one of the GOATs but Frank Mir and Rich Franklin will? LOL
Rich Franklin's record(Win, Lose, or Draw) with only his "Worthy" opponents looks a little bit more accomplished than Fedors worthy opponents:
Forrest Griffin,
Chuck Liddell,
Vitor Belfort,
Wanderlei Silva,
Dan Henderson,
Matt Hamill,
Travis Lutter,
Anderson Silva,
Yushin Okami,
Jason MacDonald,
Anderson Silva,
David Loiseau,
Nate Quarry,
Evan Tanner,
Ken Shamrock,
Jorge Rivera,
Lyoto Machida,
Evan Tanner,
Marvin Eastman,
Travis Fulton.
(and I'm not even a big Rich Franklin fan).

Tito's record(Win, Lose, or Draw) seems a little bit more accomplished too:
Ryan Bader,
Matt Hamill,
Forrest Griffin,
Lyoto Machida,
Rashad Evans,
Chuck Liddell,
Ken Shamrock,
Ken Shamrock,
Forrest Griffin,
Vitor Belfort,
Patrick Cote,
Chuck Liddell,
Randy Couture,
Ken Shamrock,
Vladimir Matyushenko,
Evan Tanner,
Wanderlei Silva,
Frank Shamrock,
Guy Mezger,
Guy Mezger.
(And I fucking HATE Tito Ortiz).

But you are right about Frank Mir. Going over his record again... it really ain't shit. hahaha.


omfg...yeah so 2 former UFC champs (blame FEDOR FOR ruining their career. yeah it's his fault they suck after Fedor sucked their souls out)
What are you arguing here? Fedor destroyed their spirit because he's a beast. That's why they suck now. Fedor still owns their souls. So we actually agree on this.
???

nor the fact that Mirko and Big Nog were the end all be all of HW MMA at the time Fedor destroyed Mirko on the feet and devoured Big Nog's soul on the ground...
We agree on this one too. These guys were badass and Fedor owned them! Exactly. That's awesome and definitely a part of his accomplishments.
Still wondering what you're trying to argue in these 2 comments. ???

I like how a lot of people missed this line though:

Fedor fought 9 Cans EARLY in his career(sounds like Most fighters).
I understand that when you start out you will be fighting a lot of people who are unknown, like Most fighters, like I said.
But my main criticism comes from the 5 Cans he fought in PRIDE while he was slaughtering Great opponents & then his choices After PRIDE.

Ramma
08-07-2011, 01:27 AM
Rich Franklin's record(Win, Lose, or Draw) with only his "Worthy" opponents looks a little bit more accomplished than......................

Tito's record(Win, Lose, or Draw) seems a little bit more accomplished too:


Win, lose or Draw? Seriously? I guess if I fought Fedor, Cain, Dos Santos, Nogueira, Cro Cop, Carwin, etc...but lost to them, it's still something to look at! Wins matter. Draws...a little. Losses...don't, unless there is controversy, and even then, not so much.

Also, listing familiar names like Travis Fulton, Marvin Eastman, Ken Shamrock and Guy Mezger doesn't make them quality wins. You're still taking a much better fighter and putting them in with a much lesser fighter. It's a mismatch. When I think of Lyoto Machida's quality wins, Tito Ortiz and B.J. Penn don't come to mind. Complete mismatches. When I think of Anderson Silva's quality wins, Carlos Newton and Chris Leben don't come to mind.

And sorry, but I still disagree even by your theory that Tito or Franklin have fought better competition. Especially when Fedor has fought and beaten more Top Ten fighters than any other HW in history. He's probably fought and beaten more Top Ten fighters than 99% of the fighters in MMA's history (because I could imagine GSP, Anderson or Hughes may have fought and beaten more).

mattc25
08-07-2011, 02:04 AM
I always hate to see the all time great's in any sport go out on a sour note. Unfortunately it happens all the time in sports. The losses he has suffered as of late don't change my opinion regarding his body of work. The bottom line is this, Fedor dominated the HW division in a LHW's body for nearly 6 years.

Do I think Fedor's management made some bad career choices for him post PRIDE ? Yes. I think as fans we all would've loved to see him in the UFC. If we look on the flip side of things; I'm almost glad he never made it there, because to me it looks like Fedor just does not have the fire to fight like he once did in PRIDE.

JPeezy
08-07-2011, 03:51 PM
Are you arguing for or against Fedor's record? :huh:

Neither, he was trying to put it in an objective perspective which really bothers some Fedor worshipers.

The8thPlague
08-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Neither, he was trying to put it in an objective perspective which really bothers some Fedor worshipers.

Exactly.

Believe me, I Love Fedor. These last 3 loses have broken my heart.
While I do consider him one of the greatest of all time, I just don't know if he's really considered the GOAT.
From 2002-2006 he definitely was. But that was only 4 years.
Look what Anderson Silva has done in the last 5 years.

The_Icon
08-07-2011, 11:57 PM
Should he be remembered as one of the all time greats? Yes. Will he go down as the Greatest of all time, IMO no. His record is amazing and going undefeated for ten years is a great accomplishment, but didn't Wanderlay win something like 22 fights in a row? What about Anderson Silva and his string of wins against comparable opponents or the fact that GSP has basically cleaned out his division? How about the things Hoyce gracie did? All of these things have shaped MMA history but none of them could make anyone of those fighters the GOAT. That title clearly belongs to Brock Lesnar...











and that was a joke

Punk Ass
08-08-2011, 01:24 AM
Fedor and Anderson=the GOATS

Fedor clearly isn't the fighter he used to be, its 2011 you fucktards.

10 years of dominance counts for alot more than some dumb fucking writer to scoff at, plus, most, or at least alot of fighters' records are filled with several no name opponents. Most of those were his first several fights. Are you suppost to be fighting top competetion in your very first pro fight? lol

I think some of his fights were dumb after he was on the top, like zulzuhino and ogawa, but I also think its dumb that Randy Couture was headlining and coheadlining cards against Coleman and Toney. No problem with those fights for "The Natural" and "The UFC hall of famer", huh Dana!Just because Fedor is losing now doesnt mean he's any less of a fighter. In fact, he still looks as explosive as ever. Look what he did to Silvia, Arlovski, and Rogers? And what he almost did to Werdum. The problem is, when he was in Pride, even the better HWs were not that well rounded at all. Nog and sadly CroCop were Fedor's best opponents. Coleman and Randleman didnt have sub d to save their lives, Hunt was a can in MMA with no grappling experience, and all of the others were cans, LHWs, or just were terrible wrestlers and just didnt have Fedor's pedigree being the best Combat Sambo fighter ever and all. Fedor was also the best striker in MMA at the time IMO because Combat Sambo teaches all aspects of fighting..Striking, grappling, and subs. Fedor was just the most well rounded fighter at the time.

Compare to the skill level and well roundedness of the best HWs today, Fedor's record only looks good on paper. That's why he's on a 3 fight losing streak. He's the same fighter, but other fighters skillsets have caught up to him and some surpassed.


Very flawed concept I hate to say. Do you have any idea how many records start with tons of cans with a name thrown in somewhere in the middle? Brock Lesnar is about the only guy with a record of almost all familiar names.

Chuck Liddell, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Franklin, Anderson, Couture, etc. all have records that start out with a record of 5 to 10 nobodies with a someday sprinkled somewhere in there. And chances are, they lost to that somebody (Liddell to Horn, Jackson to Eastman, for example). That's the case for MOST fighters who started fighting from 1999-2004. Most of the people on that list have lost to nobodies or B list fighters at best as well.

Ahhh, the icing on the cake. If there is one man's record to prove to the world that Fedor is not the greatest, it is the wonderful record of Tito Ortiz. Be serious, are you trolling? Tito Ortiz has wins over a handful of good fighters at best (Belfort, Tanner and Silva come to mind) with a adorable record of 16-8

That's a very weak argument. By your logic, Anderson doesn't deserve to be G.O.A.T. either.While I agree, his logic is flawed, in the UFC and American orgs period, once you get to a certain level of stardom, you only fight top 10 fighters. Fedor finally gets a chance to prove what hardcore MMA fans have been saying all along, on a big stage against some of the best HWs in the world, and he makes fools out of all of us lol. You cant really argue with a tuffer about Fedor anymore.

Overated is not too strong of a word for him right now.


Exactly.

Believe me, I Love Fedor. These last 3 loses have broken my heart.
While I do consider him one of the greatest of all time, I just don't know if he's really considered the GOAT.
From 2002-2006 he definitely was. But that was only 4 years.
Look what Anderson Silva has done in the last 5 years.He's not! No doubt about it. Anderson Silva and GSP are much more accomplished than Fedor at this point. It's not even comparable. And Silva doesnt lose to 40 year old 185lb fighters named Hendo.

Ramma
08-08-2011, 03:28 AM
While I agree, his logic is flawed, in the UFC and American orgs period, once you get to a certain level of stardom, you only fight top 10 fighters. Fedor finally gets a chance to prove what hardcore MMA fans have been saying all along, on a big stage against some of the best HWs in the world, and he makes fools out of all of us lol. You cant really argue with a tuffer about Fedor anymore.
Your words are for the most part true, but they don't address what I said, or what i responded to... :confusedsmilie:

FE_EatsChildren
08-08-2011, 03:41 AM
But a chink was in the armor of Fedor after that fight.

hey.. whoa whoa... no need to call fedor a chink.

likebutta
08-08-2011, 06:30 AM
Fedor was the "GOAT" back in his prime. Now he is being replaced by others (re: Anderson Silva).

YukonJordan
08-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Exactly.

Believe me, I Love Fedor. These last 3 loses have broken my heart.
While I do consider him one of the greatest of all time, I just don't know if he's really considered the GOAT.
From 2002-2006 he definitely was. But that was only 4 years.
Look what Anderson Silva has done in the last 5 years.

Please break down Anderson's record over the last 5 years and give me an argument that it compares to Fedor's 4 years. I'm dying to hear this.

Kimbo> Rampage
08-08-2011, 04:56 PM
hes not the GOAT. He is 3rd in my book. Behind Anderson and GSP. Iv seen a lot rank him there. Whats wrong with that? Even being in the discussion shows what he has done and accomplished.