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View Full Version : Stopping a fight due to illegal blow to head



Zenshotokai
05-24-2007, 11:02 PM
If you did not see the TUF tonight, Cole took a nasty elbow to the back of the head that left him dizzy and unable to truly fight to his ability. The kid did not quit to take a win by default, but instead attempted to fight. You could tell that he was not there and soon lost the fight.

Should a fight be called (don't ask the fighter if they want to continue) when an illegal blow incapacitates the fighter to the point that they could be injuried.

Dana told him to not take the chance of injury and to stop. "Don't worry about being called a pussy!"

What do you guys think?

Diegonightmare
05-24-2007, 11:04 PM
I say you do what they did. You have a doctor examine them, you ask them if they can continue. If the doctor finds no problem and they feel they can continue, you let them continue.

Of course, it's easy to say that in the comfort of my leather computer chair :)

Mirko45
05-24-2007, 11:04 PM
He should've just stopped and taken the win. Nothing is worth the risk he put on himself. He showed a lot of heart though, and I'll bet he gets a fight on the finale

Zenshotokai
05-24-2007, 11:07 PM
I say you do what they did. You have a doctor examine them, you ask them if they can continue. If the doctor finds no problem and they feel they can continue, you let them continue.

Of course, it's easy to say that in the comfort of my leather computer chair :)

The part that I hate was that Cole was doing well and you could tell that he was not the same fighter after the elbow. Lauzon did say sorry, but an illegal blow changed the course of the fight.

I agree, sitting back and watching it is easy to say let them go back in. I do know that some fighters use it as an excuse to not continue. Cole looked lost at the end of the fight. It was a shame to see him lose that way.:angrrry:

Rufio
05-24-2007, 11:07 PM
Eh Dana's right but it would've sucked to see a fighter eliminated because of a DQ.

Gmunit
05-24-2007, 11:08 PM
pretty sure it hasn't aired out West, can you edit and put "Spoiler" in the thread title?

Zenshotokai
05-24-2007, 11:08 PM
He should've just stopped and taken the win. Nothing is worth the risk he put on himself. He showed a lot of heart though, and I'll bet he gets a fight on the finale

I wish Dana had said that they would get him checked out and that they would do it again. It was a good first round with lots of action and super MMA skills.

Krazikarl
05-24-2007, 11:16 PM
Would it have been a DQ? A lot of times these tournaments have different rules. Anyway, from wikipedia:

"When a foul is charged, the referee in their discretion may deduct one or more points as a penalty. If a foul incapacitates a fighter, then the match may end in a disqualification if the foul was intentional, or a no contest if unintentional. If a foul causes a fighter to be unable to continue later in the bout, it ends with a technical decision win to the injured fighter if the injured fighter is ahead on points, otherwise it is a technical draw."

I think that Lauzon was ahead on points even after the deduction since I had him winning the first round. Actually it might have been tied...what happens if you have an illegal strike and the match is a tie on points?

Hmm, just read the NSAC rules at:

http://boxing.nv.gov/docs/MMA%20RULES%20Expained.pdf

It looks like it would have been declared a no contest provided that Lauzon wasnt behind on points (which I dont think he was). They might have special tournament rules in place though.

Zenshotokai
05-24-2007, 11:19 PM
Would it have been a DQ? A lot of times these tournaments have different rules. Anyway, from wikipedia:

"When a foul is charged, the referee in their discretion may deduct one or more points as a penalty. If a foul incapacitates a fighter, then the match may end in a disqualification if the foul was intentional, or a no contest if unintentional. If a foul causes a fighter to be unable to continue later in the bout, it ends with a technical decision win to the injured fighter if the injured fighter is ahead on points, otherwise it is a technical draw."

I think that Lauzon was ahead on points even after the deduction since I had him winning the first round. Actually it might have been tied...what happens if you have an illegal strike and the match is a tie on points?

It sounded like a DQ and then Cole would have been awarded the fight but he said that he did not want to win that way. Dana did not say what would have happened but it was infered that if there had been a DQ, Cole would have been awarded the win.

Krazikarl
05-24-2007, 11:25 PM
Well, I was listening to the language of all of the people closely after the fight because I was curious. One guy from Pulver's team seemed to think for sure that Cole would have won, but you never know if a guy who is on one of the teams (and is obviously biased) knows what hes talking about. I didnt hear anything from Dana that suggested anything one way or another on the issue. He told Cole to not fight in the future in situations like that, but thats not saying anything about the result of the fight.

I think that the rules clearly indicate that the fight should be a draw under normal circumstances, but this is different from that.

jbart321
05-24-2007, 11:33 PM
Cole's a tough kid and showed heart but put himself in a bad position. He was still woozy when he came back in. Lauzon didn't mean it, I'm sure but he should have more awareness in the ring so things like that don't happen. A DQ should have been given out regardless.

sandywh
05-24-2007, 11:46 PM
Louzon is a heck of a fighter. He was warned repeatedly about the back of the head. I don't the DQ was in order, but Miller should have taken more time. Since it was an "exhibition" Dana should have stepped in and called it a no contest and had the two fight again later. Just watching that 1st round, it had all the makings of a great war. I hope these two get a chance at each other down the road.

IMO - Louzon is ready made for the fianls, but I beleive in time Cole will be near the top of the 155 division.

YukonJordan
05-24-2007, 11:47 PM
Cole was going to lose the fight regardless so I think this works out the best for the UFC. I can almost guarantee we are going to see cole and joe fight on a PPV at some point and that blow will be the focus of the hype.

Krazikarl
05-24-2007, 11:59 PM
Exhibitions are still liable to NSAC rules if they are in Nevada. Notice that they still have the NSAC officials all around the arena. Dana cant just step in and do what he wants. If you read the rules, you will see that they say that they apply to official matches and exhibitions as well. I think that the only reason they are called exhibitions is because the results arent shown live (which they have to be if requested in an official fight).

Lauzon also only got warned once that I heard. Thats not a "repeated" warning, which is key because if he had been warned verbally more than a few times it would be much more likely to have been scored as a DQ if it came to that I think.

leedogg900
05-25-2007, 12:13 AM
i think if the elbow didnt hit him in the back of the head the fight wouldnt have gone any differently, lauzon woulda won still maybe by decision but he woulda won i think, he already won the first round and he was winnin the 2nd round until that point, and even with the 1 point taken away, the round woulda been a draw. so lauzon woulda won by decision, anything can happen yes but thats the way the fight was going anyways

Palma
05-25-2007, 12:15 AM
I think Cole exagerated his injury not to mention he kept using the back of his head to defend blows. Either way Joe was going to win.

Can someone move this thread to the TUF section and add spoiler in the title?

Diegonightmare
05-25-2007, 12:18 AM
Plus Cole did upkick while Joe was on the ground. Granted it didn't significantly alter the outcome of the fight, like the elbow potentially did, but a foul is a foul.

Diegonightmare
05-25-2007, 12:22 AM
Can someone move this thread to the TUF section and add spoiler in the title?
Word....

Palma
05-25-2007, 12:28 AM
Word....

If I didn't go to my mom's house to watch the fight on satelite to catch the east coast feed I'd be really pissed about reading the outcome.

sandywh
05-25-2007, 12:33 AM
Exhibitions are still liable to NSAC rules if they are in Nevada. Notice that they still have the NSAC officials all around the arena. Dana cant just step in and do what he wants. If you read the rules, you will see that they say that they apply to official matches and exhibitions as well. I think that the only reason they are called exhibitions is because the results arent shown live (which they have to be if requested in an official fight).

Lauzon also only got warned once that I heard. Thats not a "repeated" warning, which is key because if he had been warned verbally more than a few times it would be much more likely to have been scored as a DQ if it came to that I think.
1) The fight can be ruled a "No Contest" in the event of any illegal blow. There was a fight last year (in Las Vegas) (not UFC) that was ruled a No Contest with less than a minute to go in the fight.
2) They are also exhibitions because of the 2 rounds and a sudden death.
3) NSAC are there to score the fight, just like they would for real, for the effect.
4) A fighter / doctor / judge does not need to be consulted if the official in the ring make the call. Mario did not have to say anything to Cole, or even call the doctor up. If was inclined to do so, he could call the fight without ever speaking to anyone.
5) He was warned in the first and I heard him again in the first tie up on the ground in the 2nd.

mattyc
05-25-2007, 01:16 AM
What I found surprising is that, even before the illegal blow, Cole was covering up and not doing much on the ground in the 2nd round. If he wasen't burying his head, Joe probably wouldn't have hit him in the back of the head. Now granted, Joe should have controlled his strikes better, but it's worth taking into consideration. A fighter places himself at risk of taking a blow to the back of the head if the fighter stays in that position.

Palma
05-25-2007, 01:38 AM
What I found surprising is that, even before the illegal blow, Cole was covering up and not doing much on the ground in the 2nd round. If he wasen't burying his head, Joe probably wouldn't have hit him in the back of the head. Now granted, Joe should have controlled his strikes better, but it's worth taking into consideration. A fighter places himself at risk of taking a blow to the back of the head if the fighter stays in that position.

It looked to like Cole was using the back of his head to keep Louzon from landing strikes. His face was underneith his body, his hands were covering up the sides of his head and he kept turning the back of his head to where Joe was landing punches.

da@LARGE
05-25-2007, 04:41 AM
Fighters will always say they want to continue. That's why the ref should give them a minute with their cornermen who know them well enough to decide if they're okay to continue.

Bran
05-25-2007, 06:17 AM
most times i'd say rule it either a NC or a DQ, depending on the malice of the illegal blow. lauzon clearly did that accidentally, so his would be a NC while when frank shamrock did it, he was trying to save face so his is a DQ. i understand that during a tournament like TUF a NC is a real problem, so i don't know

BKS
05-25-2007, 06:57 AM
He should've just stopped and taken the win. Nothing is worth the risk he put on himself. He showed a lot of heart though, and I'll bet he gets a fight on the finale

Dana respects what the kid did. You'll definitely see him again.

foutch550
05-25-2007, 07:26 AM
Since it is for a contract with UFC, why not declare it a "no contest" and then have them fight again after the other 3 semifinal matches? That gives Cole time to recover and then have a fair shot to win.

perc10
05-25-2007, 07:44 AM
Cole was gonna lose anyway by GNP or decision.Its a shame that happened but Lauzon was overpowering him. I dont like DQ's.They normal get 5 min recovery. I think if it wasnt intentional and the other fighter bails then it should be a no contest cuz Lauzon was smacking the shit out of him it wouldnt have been fair to lose from a first offense

TravelinMonty
05-25-2007, 08:24 AM
The part that I hate was that Cole was doing well and you could tell that he was not the same fighter after the elbow. Lauzon did say sorry, but an illegal blow changed the course of the fight.

I agree, sitting back and watching it is easy to say let them go back in. I do know that some fighters use it as an excuse to not continue. Cole looked lost at the end of the fight. It was a shame to see him lose that way.:angrrry:


I really can't see how that blow changed the course of the fight. Cole was clearly losing and Lauzon was gaining momentum as time went on. When the illegal blow came Lauzon was on his back and Cole had his face buried in his chest. The only way Cole was defending himself was by giving the back of head. It would've been total Bullshit if Miller won that fight.

ozzy2525
05-25-2007, 09:33 AM
The thing that sucks is that if Cole asked for more time they would have called it after 2 or 3 minutes I think he would have been better, but I don't know he might have a concuisson. Joe would have won

HIT SKWAD
05-25-2007, 10:36 AM
Rules are rules. I wanted joe to win the fight. But For Cole to lose they way he did sucked..... he had heart to cont. hats off to him...But Dana "you call him a asshole" White, told him how it is...UFC is a big deal and so is the contract...you do a illegal move u should be punished! For Joe, shit happens.

dan the man 67
05-25-2007, 10:39 AM
It may have changed the course of the fight............we'll never know for sure. Cole's only chance was to catch him in a submission............I feel it was a long shot, but a possibility nonetheless. He was clearly rattled after that.

Now how about that shot to the back of the head from the concrete? Man, that had to hurt!

Ryukuma
05-25-2007, 10:55 AM
It may have changed the course of the fight............we'll never know for sure. Cole's only chance was to catch him in a submission............I feel it was a long shot, but a possibility nonetheless. He was clearly rattled after that.

Now how about that shot to the back of the head from the concrete? Man, that had to hurt!

Oh Yeah i watched that shit with my dad, my dad was disgusted by their actions, and was talking about how the guy could have gotten killed. But nevertheless it was a great fight, cole was doing great defending from joe, but in the end the round would have went to joe

guyski101
05-25-2007, 11:25 AM
The Ref should have a stopped the fight when the blow happened, Cole was so out of it, i doubt he even knew that the ref or doctor said to him. I was surpised that Jens didn't try to say something; to get the fight stopped for Coles saftey. Jens is the coach and should have some say in letting Cole continue to fight after a blow like that. It dioesn't take a doctor to see that Cole was in a different time and place after the elbow.

They should have ruled a NC and had them fight after the next 3 fights; this giving Cole time to heal up and sloving the problem of removing some from the show via DQ.

Beatts35
05-25-2007, 11:44 AM
i think if it had to be stopped it would have been a no contest with lauzon moving on.

biggdogg
05-25-2007, 01:25 PM
On TV I could see it in his eyes that he was hurt why couldnt the ref or the DR. see that he shouldnt have continued with the fight! the only way he could have was was by a submission and I didnot see that happening.

klev1
05-25-2007, 01:30 PM
They should have stopped the fight. Then let them fight again after the last quarterfinal fight. Basically just rule it a N/C.

Just my 2 cents.

TriangleChoke
05-25-2007, 01:44 PM
regardless of the outcome, the UFC will invite Cole back to fight again. I guarantee it. Cole's no slouch. He's one of the top prospects on the show, and definitely one of the top 3 145 lb fighters in the world. He lost a decision to Takeshi Inoue, and i believe he is the number 1 145 lb fighter in the world. I know Cole, and he's a bad dude. Plus, he's only 22-23 yrs old... He'll be back

perc10
05-25-2007, 11:34 PM
Imean in the end its a fight,it wasnt on purpose. Remeber when Keith Hackney punched Joe San in the balls 300 times for the win

Beowulf
05-26-2007, 09:43 PM
the way dana was talking about cole... he'll be back

perc10
05-27-2007, 02:23 PM
Yeah everyone in the top 8 will be in filler fights for fight nights and PPV

perc10
05-28-2007, 04:14 AM
Yeah I noticed that,Slaiverry wasnt out he didnt even look hurt