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[Sinatra]

Originally Posted by Matt Boone

LOL, the great boxer vs. MMA guy debate. MMA guy wins, you guys should know that by now - especially if we're talking about a top MMA guy fighting a boxer under MMA rules. An MMA guy with a WRESTLING base no less, fighting a striker-only type fighter.

Liddell KO'd him because he had wrestling to force a stand up fight.

Exactely. It's 2006, and people are still even engaging in this debate? A fight top tier boxer (which Toney IS NOT at hw, he's among the best of a lousy division) vs. a world class (which Tito is without a doubt) MMA'er with fantastic wrestling does not even go 3 minutes.

Toney would have to change his stance, with might throw off his whole game, as a traditional boxing stance is prime for takedowns. Just that alone wins the fights for Tito, or any MMA'er. Do we even have to examine what happens when a boxer gets mounted against the fence?

[Afro]

when did Tito become a world class MMA'er?

[Sinatra]

Originally Posted by Afro Samurai

when did Tito become a world class MMA'er?

Are you serious?! What about his game makes you think otherwise? Leave his personality, gimmmick, attitude, persona, whatever you want to call it, out of it, and please explain what about his fight game discredits him from being a world class mixed martial artist?

[Luis Cruz]

Boxing cardio and MMA cardio are two different worlds. Wrestling takes a lot more energy than standing and boxing, that's a fact. Toney would gas and even if he didn't Tito would take him down FAST and with little effort and absolutely destroy him. Toney isn't in great shape right now and doesn't seem to care either. He has a punchers chance, that's it and it's not a great chance against someone like Tito.

As for Peter, people are forgetting when he fought Klits there was no Jesse Reid training Peter, now there is. That's going to make a huge difference, he's a top caliber trainer and will work on Peter's overaggressive style, his poor defense, and his cardio. He will own this division still, watch. Whoever wins this fight should beat Maskaev anyways so his reign will be shortlived with that WBC belt.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by Sinatra

Are you serious?! What about his game makes you think otherwise? Leave his personality, gimmmick, attitude, persona, whatever you want to call it, out of it, and please explain what about his fight game discredits him from being a world class mixed martial artist?

Ok what about his fight game discredits him? how about his standup which is garbage, his wrestling is good but his submission game needs work and furthermore who can Tito beat other then scrubs? thank you.. and I dont see how his persona makes him world class.. the guys never even fought outside the states.. I wouldnt call Tito anything more then just a good fighter.

[Sinatra]

Originally Posted by Afro Samurai

Ok what about his fight game discredits him? how about his standup which is garbage, his wrestling is good but his submission game needs work and furthermore who can Tito beat other then scrubs? thank you.. and I dont see how his persona makes him world class.. the guys never even fought outside the states.. I wouldnt call Tito anything more then just a good fighter.

His stand up is garbage? How so? Please be specific, otherwise it sounds like your just spouting opinion. Why? Because He was knocked out by Chuck?

His submission game needs work? In what regard? That's a bit of an unfair criticism, because how many failed submissions do you see from him? Not many, because he never goes for him, but it also say a lot Who has subbed him? Mezger in his 2nd fight, that's it.

He lost to Chuck, Randy, Frank, and a fluke loss to Mezger. It's funny that people always seem to forget about his win against Silva.

I wasn't saying his persona makes him world class. All I was saying is that people don't like his persona and interpret that as him being a bad fighter.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by Sinatra

His stand up is garbage? How so? Please be specific, otherwise it sounds like your just spouting opinion. Why? Because He was knocked out by Chuck?

His submission game needs work? In what regard? That's a bit of an unfair criticism, because how many failed submissions do you see from him? Not many, because he never goes for him, but it also say a lot Who has subbed him? Mezger in his 2nd fight, that's it.

He lost to Chuck, Randy, Frank, and a fluke loss to Mezger. It's funny that people always seem to forget about his win against Silva.

I wasn't saying his persona makes him world class. All I was saying is that people don't like his persona and interpret that as him being a bad fighter.

no one is lookin at his personallity and interpetting him as a bad fighter! hes not a bad fighter but WORLD CLASS is overexaggerating his skills, Tito never really had a good standup game tell me a fight where he actually showcased good standup, show me a fight where he showcased good submission skills.. your talking world class here.. hes not on the same page as Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, any of the Nogs, or any of these guys who are world class fighters so how can you consider him a world class fighter? hes a good one no doubt but hes a wrestler who GnPs I dont give him the edge over most in anything else.. so I cant consider him a world class fighter

[KnowledgeKnown]

I believe his GnP is world class, and he showcased stand up against Shamrock certainly. Of course it depends how you feel about shamrock right now. I think Ortiz is world class, he's not the best perhaps but I do believe he's atleast in the conversation among lightheavy weights everyone wants to see fight just about any other lightheavy weight. Fans love to see him fight even if they hate him. Some to see him lose but I feel its because he will make an interesting fight. He beat Vitor, and I used to think he was an elite.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by KnowledgeKnown

I believe his GnP is world class, and he showcased stand up against Shamrock certainly. Of course it depends how you feel about shamrock right now. I think Ortiz is world class, he's not the best perhaps but I do believe he's atleast in the conversation among lightheavy weights everyone wants to see fight just about any other lightheavy weight. Fans love to see him fight even if they hate him. Some to see him lose but I feel its because he will make an interesting fight. He beat Vitor, and I used to think he was an elite.

maybe I need a definition of World Class then.. cuz I dont believe being just a good fighter in the states, and really only being known in the states makes him world class.. his GnP is great in the UFC! but what if he went to pride would that be the case? or if he fought elsewhere, the guys never fought out of the states... Shamrock fought that fight with bad ACLs and its shamrock.. beating him standing doesnt mean you got world class standup, and Vitor was washed up when they fought and that went to a decision.

[KnowledgeKnown]

we don't know what would happen in Pride with Tito. That of course is speculation. We will see within a year whether he can beat current world class fighters and even if he does there will be people who say he's not.