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[Dork8503]

People are making it out like Wandy, Shogun, Hendo all lost to cans.

Wandy lost to Chuck who is a great fighter an imo had motivation behind his training for this fight.

Shogun lost to Forrest, i know some of you hate on him but Forrest is a damn good fighter.

Hendo lost to the LHW champ in a 5 round decision.

Rampage is a champion

Anderson Silva is running threw people an if he loses next its to a pride guy.

Heath Herring was injured an then dominated his next fight, and lost to Nog after that.

Mirko lost because he was full of him self. Did you hear the way he was talking down about UFC fighters.

Werdum lost to AA who is still a damn good fighter.

Stop making it out like they are losing to cans, and if anything people underestimated UFC fighters before pride guys came over.

[kingjoshua]

i relly think pride was better made for stand up the fact that you cant kick a downed opponant takes away lot when chuck went down in the second round some soccer kick knees and head stomps might have put him away and i think ufc guys keep a slower pace for the later rounds ninja and silva both gassed out

[The Man In Black]

Originally Posted by hass

2. The losing Pride fighters can't handle having more $$$, fame, and American ways...(Wandy has no more fire, as do a lot of the Pride fighters once they start making more money.

I don't even know what to say to this statement. Wandy has no more fire? Thats why he had his trainers live at his house with him? Is that why every time chuck rocked him he started fighting like an animal because he didn't want to lose? Are we talking about the same person or am I just confused? Chuck beat wand but wand has nothing to be ashamed of after that fight, chuck beat him fair and square thats it. If they fought 10 times I wouldn't be suprised if wandy took atleast 4 of the fights because they both still have a hell of a drive to win

[jj413]

I think it's weird that some of the top Pride guys are doing terrible, but I don't get why people turn this into a UFC vs Pride debate:

Werdum vs Andrei = both guys looked bad, it didn't make either organization look better. They really need to give both these guys more chances.

Heath Herring = not sure what happened his first fight, his second fight was decent and his last match he lost to a Pride fighter. Also Heath has been schooled by a lot of the top guys in Pride so I don't know if he'll make a huge impact in the UFC HW division.

Wanderlei Silva/Henderson/Chonan = Silva fought Liddell of all people who's considered (or was) the best LHW in the world. Liddell didn't really plow through him and both went to a decision in a great fight. Same can be applied to Henderson vs Rampage. Chonan put up a fight with Karo but I don't think was considered a huge Pride star.

Shogun/Cro Cop = these two are the only ones who I really question why they lost. They should have taken their fights with ease.

Soko = he may have been exposed but we'll see. Two flash knockouts doesn't prove you're a top guy as he had lost to a lesser known guy before.

Aoki won his fight, Rampage is the LHW champion, Silva is the MW champion, and there's a strong chance that Big Nog can be the HW champion. So you have 2 (or maybe soon 3) Pride guys who are the top champs, a few who had real close matches with top stars, and then the rest who fluttered with bad matches.

It's like saying UFC sucks when Liddell lost to Rampage or Phil Baroni didn't take over the Pride MW division.

[jlruthven84]

Originally Posted by Dork8503

People are making it out like Wandy, Shogun, Hendo all lost to cans.

Wandy lost to Chuck who is a great fighter an imo had motivation behind his training for this fight.

Shogun lost to Forrest, i know some of you hate on him but Forrest is a damn good fighter.

Hendo lost to the LHW champ in a 5 round decision.

Rampage is a champion

Anderson Silva is running threw people an if he loses next its to a pride guy.

Heath Herring was injured an then dominated his next fight, and lost to Nog after that.

Mirko lost because he was full of him self. Did you hear the way he was talking down about UFC fighters.

Werdum lost to AA who is still a damn good fighter.

Stop making it out like they are losing to cans, and if anything people underestimated UFC fighters before pride guys came over.

Thank you.

[dagreat1]

Do you really need to ask this question?

Obviously it's the roids, someone already mentioned it, as I knew they would.

Seriously though, I dunno, maybe the rule change has a LITTLE somethign to do with it. Go to Japan and fight there under Japanese rules for 8 years, then come to the states and train for 6 months under the new rules and you should transition just fine because 6 months is plenty of time after having something embeded into your brain for 8 years - 2,960 days of training, give or take a few, yeah it's no problem.

Going from Japan rules to the US rules is like JJ Reddick shooting lights out from the NCAA 3 point arc to coming to the NBA and having to deal with the drastic change. It's not something you can adjust immediately, it takes time and varries from person to person, style to style. Rampage can make the transisiton quicker than Wanderlei because a huge weapon in Wanderlei's arsonal was knees to a downed opponent, soccer kicks and stomps.

If the UFC elite went to Japan and fougth under Japanese rules while training for Japanese rules for only 3-6 moths, they would be enduring brutal damage via knees, stomps and soccer kicks (St. Pierre would be fine because he's versatile but Hughes would be absolutely fucked, as well as the UFC's elite LW roster, Bj Penn aside).

The wrestlers would have to completely restructure their training and plan of attack because 1 stuffed single or double leg and it's knees to the head and lights out.

I don't get how some people don't understand the signifficance of the rule change for certain fighters, and again it varries from fighter to fighter. The rule change effects Wanderlei and Shogun more so than anyone else, this is why Wanderlei completely restructered his training camp and training technique as well as moved to Vegas and had his family along with the families of his new trainers all living under the same roof (4 families in 1 house).

Fortunately for Wanderlei, he has the money to do that, a lot of fighters are not that fortunate so the change in rules is going to be more difficult for them, namely Shogun IMO (Wand's clothing line has him set for life).

[Severn]

Well if Big Nog beats Tim and becomes heavyweight champion then that'll make three former PRIDE fighters currently holding gold. That's a pretty good representation of PRIDE right there.

I see it as the big hype was about CroCop, Shogun and Wandy going in while Silva, Rampage and Big Nog weren't IMO given as much hype.

Before 2007 there were a lot of questions about Rampage. Did he really lose his edge after his fight with Shogun? Was his victory over Chuck a fluke? Is he championship material? Lots of questions about it they've been answered. The fighters people expected the most out of are the ones who haven't been doing that well.

[mcptfc2007]

at the end of the day every pride guy has come in and fought a good fighter,

soko was not a suprise because machida is a ver good fighter and has beaten a few very big names already, the first guy 2 beat rich franklin is never goin 2 be a can,

shogun fought forrest, shogun did under estimate him it looked like he had trained for about 2 weeks in that fight, but forrest is a very strong opponent who is never goin 2 give up and he trains with randy with is a huge plus,

wandy fought the old chuck on sat nyt and struggled,

dan henderson fought rampage in a great match that went to a close decision, which i felt he won when i was watching it live in london,

fair cro cop has dissapointed but he will be back, i think every1 is forgetting big nog as well who will become heavyweight champ at ufc 81

give the pride boys a couple of fights 2 adjust and then they will turn out like rampage and anderson silva

[Punk Ass]

The reason why Pride fighters are not doing well is all situational. Pride managment were marketing geniuses and they did some great matchmaking and a hell of a job pitting good fighters against cans to show off their skill.

IMO CroCop was known for kicking many peoples heads off because he was put against many cans with limited standup to show off against. He did put together some quality wins and that just made it even solidified.

Pride had a big lack of greeat wrestlers with a good ground game. Most of their fighters were Japanese Pro wrestlers and they just werent that good.

Most of UFCs fighters are well rounded, many of Prides fighters were one dimensional in some way. Pride signed many guys with one style like Judo, Kickboxing, BJJ, ect. and when they fought a well rounded guy who could exploit their weaknesses we got highlightes. Lets break down the fighters:

Wandy: Good standup, great power, great BJJ, no wrtestling. Most of the people he fought had bad standup and many were Japanese cans. His claim to fame came from beating a clearly undersized Saku and a technically disadvantaged Rampage. I do think he is more tentative now because of his last few loses by KO and that just makes it worse. He used to be balls to the wall but when he fought a naturally bigger and more skilled CroCop, he lost. He should have had a better gameplan. Instead of stiking with a striker, he should have taken him to the ground. Also, I think those 2 loses have weakened his chin.

Shogun:He's never fought a real well rounded fighter, maybe except for Babalu (who we all know is a good fighter, just a dumb ass.) IMO, most of his fights were against one dimensional fighters in some fashion. His standup is good, but lets face it, Chute Boxe doesn't have the type of trainers like here in America IMO. I see a lack of head movement and almost non existent wrestling. Seemingly most of prides great fighters are more than happy with getting taken to the ground because of their BJJ background, but if the other guy is very good at BJJ and they can't sub him, all they're doing is losing points. Chute Boxe's balls to the wall strait forward no defense style is good enough to beat lesser skilled fighters, but you good a well trained, well prepared, Forrest who has nothing to lose, and you get loses.

Herring: Always a can IMO. He was just a stepping stone for great fighters. The only reason people thought he would do well in the UFC is because of the fantasy that Pride's fighters were so much better than the UFC's at the time.

Werdum:Just a BJJ guy with improving standup. No wrestling, no power, we still need to see more from him.

CroCop:I was duped by this guy. He was a great fighter to watch because you could almost guarantee a KO. He had the bum of the month club where they put him against fighters that didn't deserve to be fighting professionally IMO I mean Dos Caras Jr?? He didn't fight anybody on his level striking, and his sprall was good enough to not get taken down most of the time. Gonzaga has underated standup IMO and Kongo is a world class striker by MMA standards and a former pro Muay Thai kickboxer with a 30 and 3 record or something. No surprise that CroCop lost when you break it down.

Rampage:Many people are surprised that Rampage is even doing this good and ask how did Wand and Shogun dominate him like they did. The amser is simple. Rampage had little to no standup at that time and by his own words, said he almost never had enough time to train properly. He said both fights with Shogun and Wand (both) were on short notice and he didn't have the proper training partners. He just wanted to get in there and bang. The upside to Rampage was always his aggressiveness, retard strength, heart, and natural athletisism. Many fighters he faced were more skilled than him but his heart, and strength, and power somehow kept him in the limelight.

Rampage's striking has improved leaps and bounds since getting a great boxing trainer. He's been constantly improving in every aspect of the game and has become a beast. IMO, I think everybody on this forum knows that Rampage would KO both Wand and Shogun now. He's just too much.

[jlruthven84]

Originally Posted by harlemhustla145

The reason why Pride fighters are not doing well is all situational. Pride managment were marketing geniuses and they did some great matchmaking and a hell of a job pitting good fighters against cans to show off their skill.

IMO CroCop was known for kicking many peoples heads off because he was put against many cans with limited standup to show off against. He did put together some quality wins and that just made it even solidified.

Pride had a big lack of greeat wrestlers with a good ground game. Most of their fighters were Japanese Pro wrestlers and they just werent that good.

Most of UFCs fighters are well rounded, many of Prides fighters were one dimensional in some way. Pride signed many guys with one style like Judo, Kickboxing, BJJ, ect. and when they fought a well rounded guy who could exploit their weaknesses we got highlightes. Lets break down the fighters:

Wandy: Good standup, great power, great BJJ, no wrtestling. Most of the people he fought had bad standup and many were Japanese cans. His claim to fame came from beating a clearly undersized Saku and a technically disadvantaged Rampage. I do think he is more tentative now because of his last few loses by KO and that just makes it worse. He used to be balls to the wall but when he fought a naturally bigger and more skilled CroCop, he lost. He should have had a better gameplan. Instead of stiking with a striker, he should have taken him to the ground. Also, I think those 2 loses have weakened his chin.

Shogun:He's never fought a real well rounded fighter, maybe except for Babalu (who we all know is a good fighter, just a dumb ass.) IMO, most of his fights were against one dimensional fighters in some fashion. His standup is good, but lets face it, Chute Boxe doesn't have the type of trainers like here in America IMO. I see a lack of head movement and almost non existent wrestling. Seemingly most of prides great fighters are more than happy with getting taken to the ground because of their BJJ background, but if the other guy is very good at BJJ and they can't sub him, all they're doing is losing points. Chute Boxe's balls to the wall strait forward no defense style is good enough to beat lesser skilled fighters, but you good a well trained, well prepared, Forrest who has nothing to lose, and you get loses.

Herring: Always a can IMO. He was just a stepping stone for great fighters. The only reason people thought he would do well in the UFC is because of the fantasy that Pride's fighters were so much better than the UFC's at the time.
Werdum:Just a BJJ guy with improving standup. No wrestling, no power, we still need to see more from him.

CroCop:I was duped by this guy. He was a great fighter to watch because you could almost guarantee a KO. He had the bum of the month club where they put him against fighters that didn't deserve to be fighting professionally IMO I mean Dos Caras Jr?? He didn't fight anybody on his level striking, and his sprall was good enough to not get taken down most of the time. Gonzaga has underated standup IMO and Kongo is a world class striker by MMA standards and a former pro Muay Thai kickboxer with a 30 and 3 record or something. No surprise that CroCop lost when you break it down.

Rampage:Many people are surprised that Rampage is even doing this good and ask how did Wand and Shogun dominate him like they did. The amser is simple. Rampage had little to no standup at that time and by his own words, said he almost never had enough time to train properly. He said both fights with Shogun and Wand (both) were on short notice and he didn't have the proper training partners. He just wanted to get in there and bang. The upside to Rampage was always his aggressiveness, retard strength, heart, and natural athletisism. Many fighters he faced were more skilled than him but his heart, and strength, and power somehow kept him in the limelight.

Rampage's striking has improved leaps and bounds since getting a great boxing trainer. He's been constantly improving in every aspect of the game and has become a beast. IMO, I think everybody on this forum knows that Rampage would KO both Wand and Shogun now. He's just too much.

And because of the quality of the UFC's HW division at the time.