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[foundstarr]

Originally Posted by Palma

You make it sound as if more sophisticated legally inclined entities never take advantage of unsuspecting prospects... People are duped into shitty contracts everyday... you can blame them for not having the legal abilities to decipher the language in the contract but there are reasons why a contract cannot superceed the law. Because there are assholes who take advantage of other people contractually.

Based on what Randy had done in his career is pretty stellar... after dozends of contracts with the UFC this is the first time he has tried to let the term expire (which is also in his contract)...

Based on what the UFC has done to other fighters and organization I think they consistently try to screw the little guy on a regular basis.

IMO when dealing with a contract in the millions, you hire a lawyer to look it over. If you don't agree with the terms you don't sign PERIOD. Lets also not forget Randy has two fights left on his old original contract that the UFC happily renegotiated offering bundles of money. He also never attempted to renegotiate his current contract, Dana has kissed Randy's ass for years before this. So I have no reason to believe they wouldn't have been flexible.

Randy also said it wasn't about money, it was about respect and Fedor. On the respect issue again I say what about Randy day and him being inducted into the HOF? On the Fedor issue, his managements demands were absolutly structured so they held all the power,money and could hand pick Fedor's opponents. I can't see any organization except M1(which isn't really anything more then a PR firm extension of his management) ever agreeing to the terms they wanted.

Finally the hidden bonus structure, Randy received almost 1.25 mil in PPV buy checks as well as his base pay. Locker room bonuses should be for lower tier fighters that perform well, not the guy who is expected to.

[kc56]

Originally Posted by Palma

He had an imediat title shot... obviously someone (Dana) thought he could beat SYlvia...somebody thought he could be one of the best HWs in the world.

Randy has always had immediate title shots. In the past 10 years he has only had one fight in the UFC that wasn't a title match of some sort, yet he has never defended a belt more than once.

Originally Posted by Palma

I don't see what the fan's perspective of Randy being invincible after 2 fights and bandwagon behavior has to do with any of this...

it has to do with the perception that Randy would have negotiated a fight with Fedor when he signed his contract. He was coming off of having the stamp put on him twice by Liddell at LHW. Point being that the Randy, the UFC, the fans, weren't even considering him for a fight to determine the #1 HW in the world, so therefore it wouldn't have been in his contract or even discussed. The only reason I bring up the bandwagon fans is the fact that now, unfortunately, everyone is on the Randy-wagon and thinks he is #1 in the world and should be allowed to do as he pleases.

Originally Posted by Palma

Actually you can turn around and sell the car when ever you want or stop making the payments at your credit's expense... your Auto contract and a fighter's contract do not make an accurate analogy.

Fair enough. I was just stoked about my new car and it was the first thing that popped into my mind. Here is a better one for you.

Chad Johnson is considered to be one of the best WR in football. Because he decides that he should be playing for a title, doesn't mean he can just bitch-out on his contract with the Bengals mid season and then play for the Patriots in the Superbowl, or the Championship team in the CFL, and then claim that it is because the Bengals contract was too restrictive and didn't let him play for other teams or for the CFL.

Sorry, but at the end of the day, it is what it is. A signed contract, is a signed contract.

Originally Posted by Palma

Actually since it is ZUffa who puts the clauses in the contracts it has absolutly nothing to do with what Randy thought he knew...

ok, if we are playing that game, then Randy shouldn't have signed it if he didn't like it. Happy?

The whole 'Randy knew' part has to deal with the fact that Randy doesn't know. He doesn't know that he will finish his 4 fight contract undefeated, so it will most likely be a moot point.

Originally Posted by Palma

I don't see what the Colts winning two games and Randy being stuck in a contract have to do with one another.

Because Randy has won 2 matches and now he thinks he is the #1 HW in the world? Both are premature and presumptuous and a lot of people who are active in both sports would disagree with both claims.

Originally Posted by Palma

What does this have to do with anything? Do you know what we are actually arguing about?

I do know what we are arguing about. And Palma, only because you are my buddy, I will do my best to explain it to you.

What is has to deal with is Randy only winning 2 fights out of a 4 fight contract. You brought up that Randy cannot leave unless he loses. I am saying he still had 2 more fights to get through before that even became an issue. Your point was that if Randy loses in his next 2 fights, a match with Fedor will lose appeal. How is that anybody but Randy's problem? So just so I am hearing you right, it should be ok for Randy to choose not to fight and honor his contract because he is scared of losing one of his next 2 fights in the UFC and losing appeal and subsequently losing his payday.

On another thread people were quick to bash KJ Noons because he wanted to pick and choose who to defend his title against. Some even called him a pussy. How is this that much different? Isn't Couture picking to not fight Nog, AA, Vera, Tim, and all of the other deserving HWs that would likely beat him?

[kc56]

Originally Posted by smoogy

That huge sprawling post doesn't address the back room bonus though, which presuambly would not be precluded because he is getting some kind of pro-rated pseudo "signing bonus". From what I read, Couture was expecting something in the 300-500k range for his Gonzaga win (perhaps because thats about what he got for the Sylvia win) and instead he got nothing. Thats a huge chunk of his winnings gone, given the secretive (and possibly vindictive) nature of how UFC doles out these bonuses, I can easily see how Randy would have been soured on doing business with them after that.

How did this

The way we have seen signing bonus defined was that he got $500,000. $250k at time of signing and $250k after the first fight was completed. Partially because they had a check for $250k with them at the time of signing because it was the original amount agreed upon. The UFC claims that Randy asked for more money before he would sign. Not to mention, If they gave him all $500k up front, he might not have even showed up to fight Tim at all. In hindsight, it is too bad they didn't structure it so he got $125k each fight. That way Randy would feel he got a bonus for each fight, and he might have honored his contract

not address the "back room bonus" and the "psuedo signing bonus"?

I thought I addressed it pretty well.

I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see...

and yes, I double posted just so
1. You don't feel the need to dismiss all of my points by calling my post "sprawling"
2. It is easier for you to find since you seem to have overlooked it last time I posted it.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by foundstarr

IMO when dealing with a contract in the millions, you hire a lawyer to look it over. If you don't agree with the terms you don't sign PERIOD. Lets also not forget Randy has two fights left on his old original contract that the UFC happily renegotiated offering bundles of money. He also never attempted to renegotiate his current contract, Dana has kissed Randy's ass for years before this. So I have no reason to believe they wouldn't have been flexible.

Randy also said it wasn't about money, it was about respect and Fedor. On the respect issue again I say what about Randy day and him being inducted into the HOF? On the Fedor issue, his managements demands were absolutly structured so they held all the power,money and could hand pick Fedor's opponents. I can't see any organization except M1(which isn't really anything more then a PR firm extension of his management) ever agreeing to the terms they wanted.

Finally the hidden bonus structure, Randy received almost 1.25 mil in PPV buy checks as well as his base pay. Locker room bonuses should be for lower tier fighters that perform well, not the guy who is expected to.

You seriously think the kind of lawyer Randy can hire even slight compares to the legal staff Zuffa owns? Of course you have your lawyer examine the contract, but have you ever tried a legal contract? It is not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be... they are cleverly worded for a reason... to manipulate other parties.

As far as Dana kissing Randy's ass... all I can say is if you believe everything Dana says then there is no hope for you...

[Ifightforaliving]

Originally Posted by Palma

You seriously think the kind of lawyer Randy can hire even slight compares to the legal staff Zuffa owns? Of course you have your lawyer examine the contract, but have you ever tried a legal contract? It is not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be... they are cleverly worded for a reason... to manipulate other parties.

As far as Dana kissing Randy's ass... all I can say is if you believe everything Dana says then there is no hope for you...

I gotta say I am riding with Palma on this one I think the UFC is pulling some shady shit, noone really knows what is going on there, and Couture as well as many other fighters seem to be crying foul
on some of their tactics.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by kc56

Randy has always had immediate title shots. In the past 10 years he has only had one fight in the UFC that wasn't a title match of some sort, yet he has never defended a belt more than once.

Well, this contradicts your original statement that nobody thought he would beat Sylvia and be a contender as one of the best HW's in the worlds... It says allot to have an instand title shot...

Originally Posted by kc56

it has to do with the perception that Randy would have negotiated a fight with Fedor when he signed his contract. He was coming off of having the stamp put on him twice by Liddell at LHW. Point being that the Randy, the UFC, the fans, weren't even considering him for a fight to determine the #1 HW in the world, so therefore it wouldn't have been in his contract or even discussed. The only reason I bring up the bandwagon fans is the fact that now, unfortunately, everyone is on the Randy-wagon and thinks he is #1 in the world and should be allowed to do as he pleases.

You are convaluding two seperate situations... thinking Randy can do what he wants because one believes he is the best HW in the world has nothing to do with my line of reasoning that we don't know the actual details behind the contract, contract negotiations, and what was unofficially promissed to Randy and therefore who knows if he is really being dishonarbale or not.

Originally Posted by kc56

Fair enough. I was just stoked about my new car and it was the first thing that popped into my mind. Here is a better one for you.

Chad Johnson is considered to be one of the best WR in football. Because he decides that he should be playing for a title, doesn't mean he can just bitch-out on his contract with the Bengals mid season and then play for the Patriots in the Superbowl, or the Championship team in the CFL, and then claim that it is because the Bengals contract was too restrictive and didn't let him play for other teams or for the CFL.

Lol, do you follow Football much? Hold outs happen on a regular basis... Don't you remember the TO or Moss situation? This is something that happens often in all sports...

Originally Posted by kc56

Sorry, but at the end of the day, it is what it is. A signed contract, is a signed contract.

No that is simply not true... a contract cannot over ride the law... illegal contracts are written all the time... it's a matter of will that contract hold up in a court of law.

Originally Posted by kc56

ok, if we are playing that game, then Randy shouldn't have signed it if he didn't like it. Happy?

The whole 'Randy knew' part has to deal with the fact that Randy doesn't know. He doesn't know that he will finish his 4 fight contract undefeated, so it will most likely be a moot point.

Have you ever seen a contract of this kind? It's not as simple as if both parties are happy or not... it's a matter of who can screw who and get away with it.

Of course Randy doesn't know, and that is why I would be suprised if his good friend Dana White (lol, who always has his fighters best interest in mind) promised him off the record that Fedor was comming to the UFC and that if he beat Sylvia he would fight Fedor.

Originally Posted by kc56

Because Randy has won 2 matches and now he thinks he is the #1 HW in the world? Both are premature and presumptuous and a lot of people who are active in both sports would disagree with both claims.

This still doesn't have anything to do with my argument or your analogy... I don't give shit where Randy thinks he is ranked... where he is ranked has nothing to do with him trying to let his contract expire.

Originally Posted by kc56

I do know what we are arguing about. And Palma, only because you are my buddy, I will do my best to explain it to you.

What is has to deal with is Randy only winning 2 fights out of a 4 fight contract. You brought up that Randy cannot leave unless he loses. I am saying he still had 2 more fights to get through before that even became an issue. Your point was that if Randy loses in his next 2 fights, a match with Fedor will lose appeal. How is that anybody but Randy's problem? So just so I am hearing you right, it should be ok for Randy to choose not to fight and honor his contract because he is scared of losing one of his next 2 fights in the UFC and losing appeal and subsequently losing his payday.

You are assuming he is going to lose... what if he doesn't? You thinking he is for sure going to loses is just as presumptuous as people who think he is the number 1 HW in the world. You don't know what the out come is and you are talking down to others who are doing the same thing.

You are obviously not hearing me right... we don't know the details behind the scene so I am not going to pass judgment on someone when I don't know the whole story... If you by the past then I would say Randy got himself in a situation he didn't realize he would be in as he has never dishonered a contract until now and the UFC makes a living off screwing other people.

Originally Posted by kc56

On another thread people were quick to bash KJ Noons because he wanted to pick and choose who to defend his title against. Some even called him a pussy. How is this that much different? Isn't Couture picking to not fight Nog, AA, Vera, Tim, and all of the other deserving HWs that would likely beat him?

The difference is that Noons is protecting a title and Randy simply wants to fight a fighter that he most likely was promissed he would fight. Randy wants to give up the title and let his contract expire...

Besides Noons is a young fighter and Randy is at the end of his career... if he doesn't fight Fedor in the next year or so then he probably won't ever fight him...

[kc56]

Originally Posted by Ifightforaliving

I gotta say I am riding with Palma on this one I think the UFC is pulling some shady shit, noone really knows what is going on there, and Couture as well as many other fighters seem to be crying foul
on some of their tactics.

That is certainly your right, but I have to ask you, what company or organization has 100% employees 100% of the time? Now take into consideration ex-employees too. That coupled with the fact that UFC has been around longer than any of these other organizations, of course you will have some disgruntled people.

To me, it is hard to call something that is specified in a contract "Shady"

I don't see what the UFC has done so horribly wrong to Randy Couture.

-They gave him a new contract for more money when his old one wasn't up. This was fresh off him retiring after being KO'd 2 of his last 3 fights.

-They paid him what appears to be the second highest compensation in the organization.

-They gave him more title shots than anyone in the history of the UFC.

-They had a Randy Couture Day.

-They kept him on the payroll even when he retired.

-They have paid him every cent they committed to on his new contract.

-They have said nothing but good things about him up until this legal proceeding.

Randy on the other hand...

-Held a public press conference and made allegations that he was cheated out of money (only to be proven wrong)

-Didn't finish his contract

-Made other fighters pay and contracts public

-has made disparaging remarks about the UFC and the way that they do business.

-And, this one has yet to be proven, but it is starting to look as if Randy has been competing and planning to compete with the UFC while under contract with them and still bound by the non-compete clause.

I see shady, but it looks like Randy to me...

[kc56]

Originally Posted by Palma

Well, this contradicts your original statement that nobody thought he would beat Sylvia and be a contender as one of the best HW's in the worlds... It says allot to have an instand title shot...

No it doesn't. Just because he was matched up with Tim, doesn't mean that everyone thought he would win. Point was all of Randy's fights were for titles (except for Mike VanArsedale) so him coming into an immediate title fight was just par for the course and yet another example of how the UFC showed Randy all of the respect in the world.

Originally Posted by Palma

You are convaluding two seperate situations... thinking Randy can do what he wants because one believes he is the best HW in the world has nothing to do with my line of reasoning that we don't know the actual details behind the contract, contract negotiations, and what was unofficially promissed to Randy and therefore who knows if he is really being dishonarbale or not.

If it is convaluded, it is because you must have misunderstood me when I was being sarcastic and said "Randy knows he will go undefeated for his last 2 fights"

And we don't know. All we can do is draw conclusions from what has been said by both parties.

Originally Posted by Palma

Lol, do you follow Football much? Hold outs happen on a regular basis... Don't you remember the TO or Moss situation? This is something that happens often in all sports...

Sure do. Everyone called them both babies and Prima Donnas. Those players choosing to hold out did not change the fact that they were not allowed to go to another team, and they could have sat on the contracts as long as they wanted.

The only difference is they are signed for seasons. So that means that the Eagles conceivably could have sat on T.O.s contract for another 5 years.

UFC fighter's contracts are based on fights, so until the fighter fulfills his fight obligation, he is still under contract.

Originally Posted by Palma

No that is simply not true... a contract cannot over ride the law... illegal contracts are written all the time... it's a matter of will that contract hold up in a court of law.

I am sure the Champion clause can and will be debated. It however does not change the fact that he still has 2 fights remaining. I don't see how that is really up for debate.

Originally Posted by Palma

Have you ever seen a contract of this kind? It's not as simple as if both parties are happy or not... it's a matter of who can screw who and get away with it.

A contract of this kind? Sure. We saw one posted on here back when all of this broke.

I'm sure the UFC sees making Randy their second highest paid fighter as "screwing" him.


Hate to sound like a broken record, but Randy signed it, he needs to honor it.

Originally Posted by Palma

Of course Randy doesn't know, and that is why I would be suprised if his good friend Dana White (lol, who always has his fighters best interest in mind) promised him off the record that Fedor was comming to the UFC and that if he beat Sylvia he would fight Fedor.

And how could that happen? It wouldn't shock me if after the Tim or GG fight Dana said he would get Fedor. If it was promised, it would be in the contract and Randy would be telling everyone about it.
Looks like it isn't in there so I guess it doesn't matter...

Originally Posted by Palma

This still doesn't have anything to do with my argument or your analogy... I don't give shit where Randy thinks he is ranked... where he is ranked has nothing to do with him trying to let his contract expire.

No it doesn't. Him trying to let his contract expire should be interesting. He still has 2 fights left. I don't know how those expire. As for the time frame? The UFC has been offering him fights. They are holding up their end of the bargain.

Originally Posted by Palma

You are assuming he is going to lose... what if he doesn't? You thinking he is for sure going to loses is just as presumptuous as people who think he is the number 1 HW in the world. You don't know what the out come is and you are talking down to others who are doing the same thing.

Not at all. I am saying the odds are good that he may lose one of those 2 fights. Presumptuous implies that there is a foregone conclusion. I am saying that it may be moot because he may lose. You were saying that he shouldn't have to fight the last 2 fights of his contract because he may lose and that would diminish the attraction of a Randy v Fedor match. If Randy would have fought all 4 fights specified on his contract, then yes, he would be welcome to challenge the "Champion's Clause" in his contract. I am saying it doesn't even matter until when/ if he finishes those 4 fights and is still the champion, because until then, it doesn't even matter or change a single thing.

Originally Posted by Palma

You are obviously not hearing me right... we don't know the details behind the scene so I am not going to pass judgment on someone when I don't know the whole story... If you by the past then I would say Randy got himself in a situation he didn't realize he would be in as he has never dishonered a contract until now and the UFC makes a living off screwing other people.

You can choose the term dishonor a contract, but let's not forget about Randy not defending the UFC title when he beat Maurice Smith in Japan, and him restructuring the current contract he has now. This isn't the first issue he has had with the UFC and contracts.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Randy chose to re-negotiate his contract.

If that is his line of reasoning, this could be a short legal battle. Even with all of Cuban's money.

[POINDEXTER]

Fedor is going to destroy Couture and then this will all seem moot.

[foundstarr]

Originally Posted by Palma

You seriously think the kind of lawyer Randy can hire even slight compares to the legal staff Zuffa owns? Of course you have your lawyer examine the contract, but have you ever tried a legal contract? It is not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be... they are cleverly worded for a reason... to manipulate other parties.

As far as Dana kissing Randy's ass... all I can say is if you believe everything Dana says then there is no hope for you...

I like your passion Palma, but you make it sound like Randy pulled a lawyer out of the yellow pages to negotiate his contracts. Remember he runs a gym and has tons of sponsors. I guarentee he has a decent legal team. It seems to me its hard to hide the kind of language he is argueing in court. (this is my opinion)

Also for the believeing Dana thing, I didn't say I believe anything. I just said he truly kissed Randys ass in every interview, promo, and opportunity he got.