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[CJRockstar]

Originally Posted by Boo

It would suck to see the action stopped for 5 minutes, but I don't think I can count the times I've seen guys start fighting again when they probably should have given themselves more time to recover.

I could argue this either way. Yes a fighter and his corner should take responsibility for taking the time they really need to recover. However, there has to be a lot of pressure to get it moving again. You've got the crowd booing, fighters not wanting to look like pussys, the ref in your face, etc.

When I watched the Pulver/Faber fight the other night I thought Jens jumped back in too fast with both the eye poke and the groin shot. That's Jens for you.

Totally agree. Too many of them don't want to look like pussies so they man up, and usually 9 out of 10 times they get a whoopin after that. I think it's hard to mentally come back from a bad nutshot. I mean, some of them can hurt for hours if they are sharp enough. A knockout knee directly to the eyeball in Leites case, should of been 5 minutes of unadulterated sit here and rest. He's lucky it didnt cost him the fight. Ironically, it was the other way around lol. Marquardt lost via decision to his own fouls.

[Clint]

A time where I could see this being a problem is when you have your opponent hurt/rocked and then get kicked in the nuts/poked in the eye and the mandatory 5 minutes gives him plenty of time to recover when you would rather deal with the pain and finish the fight

[thebwit]

One of the big things that always gets mentioned when a fight gets stopped early is "Fighter Safety". I think the 5 min rule should be enforced slightly differently as was pointed out. Here's how I think it should happen:

Fighter A receives an illegal strike
Ref calls time out and gives fighter A 5 mins
Ref cannot talk to fighter A for 4 minutes unless Fighter A approaches the Ref
Doctor cannot come in for 4 minutes unless the fighter asks for the doctor
After 5 mins then the Ref can finally ask are you ready - one time only - fighter says yes, fight gets on, fighter says No - fight stops.

I think this way a ref isn't trying to restart quickly and then the fighter doesn't have to answer stupid questions while still slightly rocked and possibly mis-answer the question and thus get it called by the doctor.

[Gmunit]

From the UG, I never saw After the Bell this time around

In an excellent interview on "After The Bell" on The Fight Network, immediately after UFC 85, former UFC referee "Big" John McCarthy clarified a number of official rulings in the Unified Rules of MMA, and also addressed an upcoming convention that will improve upon the current state of both refereeing and judging in future events.


As of now, the video is not yet on TheFightNetwork.com, but I would assume that it would be added soon. Highlights are as follows:


- In the case of an illegal strike (knee to the head of Thales Leites, finger to the eye of Scott Smith, etc.), the fighter DOES NOT get up to five minutes to recover. That ONLY applies to a low blow, wherein the fighter is allowed up to five minutes to continue. For illegal strikes, the referee must call the doctor into the cage (and Herb Dean did do this), get the doctor's approval that the afflicted fighter can continue, then must immediately restart the fight. The five-minute rule does NOT apply.

- The point deduction for the offending knee strike in the Marquardt vs Leites fight was justified.

- With regards to strikes to the back of the head, everything that Joe Rogan said on the telecast was misleading and incorrect. McCarthy reiterated that he was in the room when the original "Unified Rules" were drawn up back in 2001 (and that Herb Dean and Joe Rogan were not), and the initial ruling was that you start at the point of the head at the back of the skull and draw an imaginary line down to the base of the neck. Any strikes within a ONE INCH area to the left or right of that line are illegal.

- This means that all strikes behind the ear, like the one in the Marquardt vs Leites fight, and all others that are not directly aimed at the back of the skull or base of the neck, are perfectly legal. McCarthy made mention of referees and commentators (Rogan) making up their own justifications, such as Rogan's nonsense comment about "imagine you're wearing headphones." Rogan's comment was completely false.

- Rogan's further suggestion that mixed martial arts should use replays is a terrible and implausible idea, because you can't just stop a fight repeatedly to go check to see if an error was made. McCarthy said that no one's perfect, including himself, but that instant replay isn't going to help anything and could adversely alter the fight.

- The fact that Nate Marquardt's piledriver on Thales Leites with 10 seconds left in the fight went completely unmentioned and unpunished was ridiculous, as spiking an opponent on their head is clearly illegal. You cannot intentionally drop an opponent on their head.

- There is an upcoming convention in Montreal from July 1-7 that will bring together all members of the Athletic Commissions across North America to better educate both the referees and judges for mixed martial arts fights. This should result in vastly increased awareness in many areas that are currently badly lacking, and (hopefully) will result in far fewer controversial incidents, like the ones of the past 10 days.

- This convention will address issues such as potential rule changes to the Unified Rules, so we can hope that knees to the head on the ground might finally be permitted.

[rivethead]

Ugh. To paraphrase Thoreau, less government is good government...I'd have to apply that to MMA rules. I'm not a big fan of anything being mandatory. Right now, fighters have the option/responsibility to ask for the time...the farthest I'd be willing to concede is giving their cornerman license to ask for the time on their behalf.

Originally Posted by Boo

When I watched the Pulver/Faber fight the other night I thought Jens jumped back in too fast with both the eye poke and the groin shot. That's Jens for you.

I completely agree, but that can also be interpreted as a hole in Jens' game. I really wanted Jens to win that fight, and I was frustrated with him [I also felt if he was as aggressive as he'd been in the past, it could have been...impactful.] but it's really part of learning the game and listening to your corner, doing what's best for the fight and not for your ego. As a veteran, Jens should have known better and been able to deal with any pressure the crowd might have represented.

There are just as many fights lost because fighters want to "prove" something and abandon a solid game plan that plays to their strengths/opponent's weaknesses; and they get caught and only prove they should have stuck to the plan.



But I'm not in favor of having anything mandatory that isn't mandatory already.

Originally Posted by Gmunit

From the UG, I never saw After the Bell this time around

I missed it as well...but total pwnage of Rogan.

rh

edited for GMunit response

[POINDEXTER]

Originally Posted by Clint

A time where I could see this being a problem is when you have your opponent hurt/rocked and then get kicked in the nuts/poked in the eye and the mandatory 5 minutes gives him plenty of time to recover when you would rather deal with the pain and finish the fight

That's what I was thinking as well.

[KIMBOTHEEARKILLA]

i dont know about anyone else but if i was kicked in the balls by someone who kicks bags and shit all day i would probly need more than five minutes before i could breath correctly let alone fight right away.

[earle]

Illegal knee, piledrive, damn Nate's an animal! His overagressiveness (is that a word?) cost him the fight though, he got caught with a right early as he ran in face first, hands down, leading to the takedown which cost him the round (mostly). The point deductions did the rest He had Thales rocked at the end of the first though, even without the illegal blows I think he would have beaten Leites soundly.

Leites was not all there after the knee though, everyone could see it, his eyes looked glazed and he was wobbly, his corner was telling him to take more time. Of course he's not going to say he can't continue. If he's not allowed to take 5 minutes then it should have been a DQ loss for Nate. That doctor barely looked at him, where's the little pen with the light? Check his head, make him walk a line, do something man, damn. In the end Thales took a much worse beating.

So in conclusion, yes, if you can take 5 minutes for the pain of a groin shot, surely you should get 5 minutes for a knee to the head?

[Boo]

Originally Posted by iverbure

Well i look at it this way, if you are a true fan of the sport which i consider myself and i am sure you do, why wouldn't you want to see a fair fight? If the crowd isn't booing at you, thus the ref isn't in your face to get things moving.

To me i can respect a fighter if they are taking the time to recover so that they can win the fight, i don't want to see someone that is fighting with one eye or is watering so bad he can't see, to me that isn't fair and i don't care what half the stupid fans are booing about because like i said it seems like if there isn't action for 5 seconds they start to boo or the it goes to the ground than they boo.

I know the fans are important but at this point and after all the booing, i've had enough because they aren't real fans if they are booing.

You'll sure not get any arguement from me when it comes to the idiot fans that boo at the drop of a hat. My point is only that I'm sure booing influences fighters, refs, promoters, etc. The only influence it has on me is a desire to throw something at the TV and yelling STFU.

Originally Posted by rivethead

Ugh. To paraphrase Thoreau, less government is good government...I'd have to apply that to MMA rules. I'm not a big fan of anything being mandatory. Right now, fighters have the option/responsibility to ask for the time...the farthest I'd be willing to concede is giving their cornerman license to ask for the time on their behalf.

Appeals to my Libertarian leanings.

Originally Posted by rivethead

I completely agree, but that can also be interpreted as a hole in Jens' game. I really wanted Jens to win that fight, and I was frustrated with him [I also felt if he was as aggressive as he'd been in the past, it could have been...impactful.] but it's really part of learning the game and listening to your corner, doing what's best for the fight and not for your ego. As a veteran, Jens should have known better and been able to deal with any pressure the crowd might have represented.

There are just as many fights lost because fighters want to "prove" something and abandon a solid game plan that plays to their strengths/opponent's weaknesses; and they get caught and only prove they should have stuck to the plan.

Excellent point. Not thinking tactically and instead letting emotion/ego decide your game plan IS a weakness. Jorge Gurgel comes to mind.


Gmunit, excellent info. Some clarification of the rules is needed. It seems that in the last year I hear a lot more refs warning people about blows to the back of the head. Between that and Rogan's example of earphones, I thought MY understanding of an illegal blow to the back of the head was wrong. What John describes is exactly what I thought. Thank you John McCarthy. Still miss him as a ref.