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[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by neonatural45

An Interim title shot is still a title shot, and he was in line to fight the winner of Hughes vs Serra anyways. His title shot wouldn't be that stupid if it was his first title shot, it was his fucking third. Hughes and Nog are the only people I can think of off the top of my head who have challenged for the same title 3 times (counting interims as well), GSP has never even defended it and counting the Interim shot he has had 4 shots at UFC welterweight belts.

BJ had 3 title shots for the lw title. Couture has challenged for the hw title 4 times. Couture also challenged for the lhw title (including interim) 3 times.

The interim title was just called a title fight, and it was just made that way for it to be a 5 round main event. The real title fight took place at ufc 83. Otherwise you could say he won the title 3 out of 4 times he challenged for it. He lost one defense and now he's going to defend it again.

He should be the last person people should be complaining about for not deserving a title shot. He has beaten bigger names at ww than anyone in the welterweight division and he clearly dominated many fighters on his quest for a title shot.

[neonatural45]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

BJ had 3 title shots for the lw title. Couture has challenged for the hw title 4 times. Couture also challenged for the lhw title (including interim) 3 times.

The interim title was just called a title fight, and it was just made that way for it to be a 5 round main event. The real title fight took place at ufc 83. Otherwise you could say he won the title 3 out of 4 times he challenged for it. He lost one defense and now he's going to defend it again.

He should be the last person people should be complaining about for not deserving a title shot. He has beaten bigger names at ww than anyone in the welterweight division and he clearly dominated many fighters on his quest for a title shot.

I didn't complain about him getting A title shot, I complained about him getting 4 title shots rather. Look how far up he had to climb after losing to Hughes the first time, compare that to after he became a star, he had to win one fight to get a title shot. In that one fight he didn't earn a title shot IMO.

When you say that he "clearly dominated many fighters on his quest for a title shot" you better be talking about one of his first two.

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by neonatural45

I didn't complain about him getting A title shot, I complained about him getting 4 title shots rather. Look how far up he had to climb after losing to Hughes the first time, compare that to after he became a star, he had to win one fight to get a title shot. In that one fight he didn't earn a title shot IMO.

When you say that he "clearly dominated many fighters on his quest for a title shot" you better be talking about one of his first two.

Look at his title shots exactly

1st one - he won two fights and there was no one to challenge hughes for the title besides him. He was pretty much placed there because they had to put someone against Hughes.

2nd one - he earned this one clearly.. no doubt about it

3rd and 4th one - i don't consider the interim match a title shot at all, this really meant nothing as the winner was going to fight the ww champion (serra) next. Sure it was called an interim but you can't say this was the 3rd shot and then he got a 4th shot. Obviously the winner of the interim was going to fight the champ... it was a combined shot.

Who else deserved it at the time to fight Serra?
-Kos was out of the picture cuz he lost.
-Diego had two losses in a row
-Then there was Fitch, who was on a win streak against guys who were not close to top 10. He beat the only top 10 in diego in which he barely edged out a decision. Atleast GSP convincingly beat Kos for 13 of the 15 mins as Kos couldn't do anything to him but I don't even know how Fitch even beat Diego as he was getting caught in a million submissions.
-Karo had 3 victories in a row against guys who were not even in the top 15.

GSP on the other hand beat #4 ww and #3 ww in order to fight Serra. There's a difference between racking a bunch of wins against b-level and c-level fighters to convincingly beating a couple of clear A-level fighters.

[neonatural45]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

Look at his title shots exactly

1st one - he won two fights and there was no one to challenge hughes for the title besides him. He was pretty much placed there because they had to put someone against Hughes.

2nd one - he earned this one clearly.. no doubt about it

3rd and 4th one - i don't consider the interim match a title shot at all, this really meant nothing as the winner was going to fight the ww champion (serra) next. Sure it was called an interim but you can't say this was the 3rd shot and then he got a 4th shot. Obviously the winner of the interim was going to fight the champ... it was a combined shot.

Who else deserved it at the time to fight Serra?
-Kos was out of the picture cuz he lost.
-Diego had two losses in a row
-Then there was Fitch, who was on a win streak against guys who were not close to top 10. He beat the only top 10 in diego in which he barely edged out a decision. Atleast GSP convincingly beat Kos for 13 of the 15 mins as Kos couldn't do anything to him but I don't even know how Fitch even beat Diego as he was getting caught in a million submissions.
-Karo had 3 victories in a row against guys who were not even in the top 15.

GSP on the other hand beat #4 ww and #3 ww in order to fight Serra. There's a difference between racking a bunch of wins against b-level and c-level fighters to convincingly beating a couple of clear A-level fighters.

You need to understand that GSP already had a title shot in the bag before he stepped in to fight Hughes, so really he only beat one fighter to earn himself back into the #1 contender spot.

As for Serra the UFC should have

1. Not put him on the shelf to coach the worst season of TUF yet for almost a year

2. Fight Fitch, who had a win over Diego (who is ranked top 10), Alves (also ranked top 10), and solid welterweights like Brock Larson, Hironaka, Carneiro etc.

3. Give Karo a title shot, he already has a win over Serra on his record and he had a title shot stolen from him pretty much. Wins over Chonan, Burkman, and Fickett are enough to get him a title shot when there isn't anyone else to fight for the title (similar to what you said about GSP at the start of your post).

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by neonatural45

You need to understand that GSP already had a title shot in the bag before he stepped in to fight Hughes, so really he only beat one fighter to earn himself back into the #1 contender spot.

As for Serra the UFC should have

1. Not put him on the shelf to coach the worst season of TUF yet for almost a year

2. Fight Fitch, who had a win over Diego (who is ranked top 10), Alves (also ranked top 10), and solid welterweights like Brock Larson, Hironaka, Carneiro etc.

3. Give Karo a title shot, he already has a win over Serra on his record and he had a title shot stolen from him pretty much. Wins over Chonan, Burkman, and Fickett are enough to get him a title shot when there isn't anyone else to fight for the title (similar to what you said about GSP at the start of your post).

yea well Karo's case is not similar to GSP first title shot. Back then there was no contendors, right now there are top welterweights and you can't just get a title shot by beating chonan, burkman and fickett.

GSP definitely had a title shot in the bag but he could've lost that title shot with Serra by taking a fight with hughes in 30 days notice. He didn't have to take that fight but he did and he solidified his title shot.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Diegonightmare

Well if it's any consolation to Leben, he's a lot more well regarded among hardcore fans now than Koscheck is. Not as highly ranked, but more well regarded.

I hope you are joking. Koscheck has been constantly improving and is trying to redefine himself as less of an asshole. Leben is still...just Leben.

But bro, he's got heavy hands! [<<< sarcasm]

Originally Posted by kingrobert

Everyone acts like GSP totally destroyed Kos witch is not the case. Kos lost 2 rounds and won 1. GSP had Kos down but really didnt do any damage durning the fight. I think Kos gained expierence and would fair much much better if they were to fight again.

I do think Kos can beat GSP but I DO NOT think he could beat Bj. He would have to cut so much weight to make LW he would be exhausted. Bj is by far better on the feet and off his back even if Kos could get him down. Kos has a bright future in MMA.

GSP had a great game plan for Kos, and he executed it very well. I also gave Kos the first round, and think a rematch would be competative. I do not think Kos has a chance with BJ at LW or at WW.

Originally Posted by neonatural45

Nah, I gave a perfect description of the fight but I have never actually bothered to look at it. It's not like it was the co-main event of a pay-per view with title implications or anything.

He got more takedowns, and stayed on top for the majority of the fight. He was happy to ride out a decision and really didn't really have his heart set on finishing Kos. I think he won the fight 29-28, but saying he kicked Kos' ass like the poster said is way off.

I think it's funny that people complain about Machida's style or even when Blah complained about Kos moving in and out against Lytle but they don't have a problem with GSP's performance in the Kos fight.

If it had been Sherk who laid on him for three rounds, he would have been beaten up all over the boards. But since it was GSP, we get rose-colored-glasses reviews with horribly misapplied terms like "dominated" and "schooled."

Originally Posted by neonatural45

I didn't complain about him getting A title shot, I complained about him getting 4 title shots rather. Look how far up he had to climb after losing to Hughes the first time, compare that to after he became a star, he had to win one fight to get a title shot. In that one fight he didn't earn a title shot IMO.

When you say that he "clearly dominated many fighters on his quest for a title shot" you better be talking about one of his first two.

Looking back at that time period, I'd say was Hughes "earning" a rematch by taking the reality show winner Lytle to a decision was worse than GSP "earning" one by "dominating" Koscheck.

I am done pretending the UFC awards title shots on merit alone.

rh

[Diegonightmare]

Originally Posted by rivethead

I hope you are joking. Koscheck has been constantly improving and is trying to redefine himself as less of an asshole. Leben is still...just Leben.

But bro, he's got heavy hands! [<<< sarcasm]

No, I think that if you measure the pulse of the sentiment on your average hardcore MMA fan's board, they are more interested to watch Chris Leben fight than to watch Josh Koscheck fight.

Myself I'm not terribly interested in either one; but I'll grant you (as I myself said in the first post in this thread) that Koscheck has shown a lot of improvement and now has to be regarded as a well rounded fighter.

I won't argue that; what I am saying is that Chris Leben is more well liked among hardcore fans than Koscheck is.

[neonatural45]

I would actually love to see Koscheck vs Leben today at 170

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by rivethead

GSP had a great game plan for Kos, and he executed it very well. I also gave Kos the first round, and think a rematch would be competative. I do not think Kos has a chance with BJ at LW or at WW.

I've heard people say they gave the first round to Kos and even the judges did the same but I don't know how. I'd either give it GSP 10-9 or it was a 10-10 round at most. No one landed anything significant before GSP got the takedown in the first half minute. Then he had Kos on the ground for the next 3 minutes, he passed to half guard about 3 times and landed a few punches and elbows. Kos got up with 1 n' half mins left in the round, got one takedown stuffed and then got a takedown. In that time, he never passed guard and only landed 2 punches at the buzzer. He did less than GSP imo and had less control in the round.

Originally Posted by neonatural45

I would actually love to see Koscheck vs Leben today at 170

Yea me too. Although I think Kos can just take him down and keep him down while landing some good elbows. If Lytle couldn't sub him, I don't think Leben can.

[strife]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

Yea me too. Although I think Kos can just take him down and keep him down while landing some good elbows. If Lytle couldn't sub him, I don't think Leben can.

Lytle didn't even attempt any worthy submissions except for the guillotine in the 3rd round which was pretty tight it seemed. The two other guillotine attempts were half assed and he wasn't even in position to finish either of them. If Lytle's gameplan was to sub Kos and not just stand and trade I think the fight would of been a lot different. Leben has a mediocre ground game and unless we see some sort of grappling jesus transcend onto Leben if this fight were to happen, he would just get taken down and beat up.