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[strife]

Originally Posted by Hartexe3

Come on man. Franklin was acting a little weird before and during the fight. Maybe he wasn't afraid of Silva, but he knew he was in hot water. I think he was intimidated. Actually, in the pre-fight interview, he said he would prefer to get a one-punch KO, pick up his check, and go home. Now I understand that the UFC is a business, but you don't have to say things like that. I suspect he is in it for the money just as much as the competition, which is fine, but I don't want to hear it, you know? It's the same deal with Ortiz and Shamrock. Shamrocks whole "We made a lot of money" speech pissed me off because it essentially meant that he didn't care if he won or lost. Well if you don't care, don't bother to fight in the first place. This isn't pro-wrestling. If you don't care about losing, you are disrespecting and cheating your fans. I'm surprised more people weren't extremely pissed off when he said that.

I definately noticed that and it caught me weird. Come on, no one wants to hear how much you are getting paid, this isn't pro football or baseball this is MMA. MMA is supposed to be different than almost all sports given the fact that fighters, even though they may not even get payed, will just fight their fucking heart out and sleep well at night knowing that they are living a dream. I understand people have families and such (Sherk also mentioned it in this special about the PPV, saying he was pissed as hell at Florian for skipping out of their bout which was supposed to be in October and that he was missing a payday which hurt his family and he was going to make him pay) but show that you are there to be a warrior and not just there to "collect a check and go home." That definately pissed me off, I'm glad you brought that up.

[Nate_Deezy]

Originally Posted by duran

I think the biggest difference here is that Ace took a vicious beating Saturday. When he comes back I don't think he will be the same fighter. That type of loss takes something from the soul of most fighters. Will he fight again with some success? I think we all can guess the answer is yes. Can he come back and beat Silva? If he is the rare fighter who can forget a beating like that, he has a chance. I think the chances are that beating took more from him than the belt.

....If I remember correctly, he took a pretty bad beating from Machida....in the middle of his DOMINANT run (and title reign) in the UFC. That really didn't seem to throw him off too much. I can't understand how one loss changes someone's entire opinion of a fighter. I can't wait to get online the first time Fedor loses and watch all the whining and nut-hugging. A loss is inevitable in any fighter's career, and it's not like he lost to some slouch. In fact, he hasn't fought a slouch in recent memory. Let's take a look...

In his UFC debut, he beat Evan Tanner who was at the time the UFC middleweight champion. I believe he beat him in a non-title fight, and that's what earned him a title shot. Now....say what you want about Evan Tanner, but that guy's for real. He is a tough as nails competitor with a 32-6-0 record and has beaten some really fierce competition. (Phil Baroni twice, Heath Herring, Robbie Lawler, and David Terrell) No matter who the champion is, it is crazy impressive to beat a champion in your UFC debut, almost unheard of.

Edwin Dewees...once again say what you want about him, but his 34-9-0 record is pretty impressive. Especially with 27 of those fights being won by submission, and only 4 going the distance. Out of all those fights he's only been knocked out twice, and Rich had little difficulty knocking him out.

Jorge Rivera is probably one of the most under-rated fighters out there right now. He's a very solid fighter, although definitely not A-level, he's a solid mid-card fighter with an impressive win over David Louiseau under his belt. And with 8 K.O's on his record, he's definitely no slouch in the stand-up, which is where Franklin excels, so Jorge should have probably matched up with him better. He was, however, picked apart by Franklin.

Ken Shamrock...only way to describe him....legendary. He was one of the first actual mixed martial artists in the UFC because he was well versed in both striking and grappling. His reputation and monacre as "The World's Most Dangerous Man" were very much earned and well deserved in the early days of his career, and even in the later years. He was just unfortunately matched up against some of the best young talent out there. He almost had Franklin in a heel hook during the fight, and Franklin was able to overcome the adversity and secure a first round highlight reel TKO.

Then he beat Evan Tanner again. We've already been over Evan's credentials so I'll just barely touch on this. However, typically when a fighter loses (especially a champion) he will come back with a more well thought out game plan and can usually win the rematch. (See Arlovski/ Sylvia, Couture/ Liddell, Penn/ Hughes) Evan however was probably beaten more dominantly in this fight than in the last. Both times he had his face pretty much re-arranged by Franklin and this time lost the belt.

Nate Quarry was probably the biggest mis-match for Rich Franklin in Rich's UFC run. Quarry wasn't on Franklin's level especially that night. The only thing is, Quarry had been on a TEAR in the UFC and was highly favored to win TUF 1. He beat such seasoned vets as Shonie Carter and Pete "Drago" Sell, both in dominant knockout fashion. The guy was looking really good, but was overwhelmed by Franklin because he had never faced competition on such an intense level.

David Louiseau was probably Rich's toughest test in the octagon at this point. This was the only fight Rich had in his career that went to decision. Louiseau is FEARED for his striking, mainly for his vicious elbows. He was impressing tons of people with his fights in the UFC, especially against Charles McCarthy which was probably one of the 5 best knockouts in UFC history. Many saw The Crow as the favorite in this fight because of his lethal elbows. The only problem was, he was incapable of utilizing this skill in the fight as Franklin put The Crow's standup to shame, and never allowed himself to take elbows from the bottom. He neutralized every aspect of Louiseau's game, and even had him literally turning his back and running at a couple points in the fight.

Anderson Silva just had Franklin outclassed, and performed better that night. Franklin is NOT over-rated, and in fact is probably highly under-rated still at this point in his career. With a 22-2 record, I'd say he's a true force and should not be taken lightly by anyone at any time for any reason. I just hope Anderson Silva doesn't take him lightly in a rematch because Franklin is going to come back focused, he's going to be more prepared especially in the clinch, and most of all, he is going to want his belt back.

[dagreat1]

Originally Posted by kowarrior

Fighters will go at Rich with more confidence now, they won't see him as being all that special. They won't be intimidated by him at all.

That is VERY possible. You canlt think that Rich is focused on his return to the octagon right now. He is focused on contemplating his future as a fighter, you have to realize the UFC screwed this man, he is still only making $35,000 per fight (GSP was the highest paid fighter on the card where Franklin fought the Crow and GSP was oaid $70,000) and UFC and Xyence endoursements are not like Michael Jordan's Nike, Gatorade and Coke commercials, the UFC and supporters commercials pay VERY little ao Frankin is not set for life like Chuck is as Chuck is making $250,000 per fight PLUS a percentage of the PPV sales so he makes around $1 million per fight.

Rich must now comeback knowing he is not set for life and must continue to fight and HE MUST be successfull again, that is a ton of pressure on him and after being destroyed in such a manor and not even knowing how to escape a Thai clinch is huge and must weigh heavily on his mind.

I think his world is completely upside down right now, I hope he bounces back as I have respect for him as a fighter (I don't like him or his cockieness and was glad he lost) as this is his career and life that are on the line. I can only imagine how he feels right now after being a victim of Dana White's marketing and tasting defeat in such a manor.

if I am a UFC fighter (especially a bigger name like Babalu, Tito, GSP, etc.) I would be placing calls regarding training with Chute Box and Brazilian Top Team. Their methods are the best in the world.

[dagreat1]

[QUOTE=Nate_Deezy]
Ken Shamrock...only way to describe him....legendary. He was one of the first actual mixed martial artists in the UFC because he was well versed in both striking and grappling. His reputation and monacre as "The World's Most Dangerous Man" were very much earned and well deserved in the early days of his career, and even in the later years. He was just unfortunately matched up against some of the best young talent out there. He almost had Franklin in a heel hook during the fight, and Franklin was able to overcome the adversity and secure a first round highlight reel TKO.

QUOTE]
You just brought up Ken Shamrock???? He was what 39 years old at the time? All you can say about him is legendary? I can say a little bit more about him.... OVER THE HILL. He was nowhere near as fast, strong, or athletic as he was in his prime 10+ years ago. Him almost heel hooking Franklin is a bad thing for Franklin, not a good thing for Shamrock.

[blah]

Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy

....If I remember correctly, he took a pretty bad beating from Machida....in the middle of his DOMINANT run (and title reign) in the UFC. That really didn't seem to throw him off too much. I can't understand how one loss changes someone's entire opinion of a fighter. I can't wait to get online the first time Fedor loses and watch all the whining and nut-hugging. A loss is inevitable in any fighter's career, and it's not like he lost to some slouch. In fact, he hasn't fought a slouch in recent memory. Let's take a look...

In his UFC debut, he beat Evan Tanner who was at the time the UFC middleweight champion. I believe he beat him in a non-title fight, and that's what earned him a title shot. Now....say what you want about Evan Tanner, but that guy's for real. He is a tough as nails competitor with a 32-6-0 record and has beaten some really fierce competition. (Phil Baroni twice, Heath Herring, Robbie Lawler, and David Terrell) No matter who the champion is, it is crazy impressive to beat a champion in your UFC debut, almost unheard of.

Edwin Dewees...once again say what you want about him, but his 34-9-0 record is pretty impressive. Especially with 27 of those fights being won by submission, and only 4 going the distance. Out of all those fights he's only been knocked out twice, and Rich had little difficulty knocking him out.

Jorge Rivera is probably one of the most under-rated fighters out there right now. He's a very solid fighter, although definitely not A-level, he's a solid mid-card fighter with an impressive win over David Louiseau under his belt. And with 8 K.O's on his record, he's definitely no slouch in the stand-up, which is where Franklin excels, so Jorge should have probably matched up with him better. He was, however, picked apart by Franklin.

Ken Shamrock...only way to describe him....legendary. He was one of the first actual mixed martial artists in the UFC because he was well versed in both striking and grappling. His reputation and monacre as "The World's Most Dangerous Man" were very much earned and well deserved in the early days of his career, and even in the later years. He was just unfortunately matched up against some of the best young talent out there. He almost had Franklin in a heel hook during the fight, and Franklin was able to overcome the adversity and secure a first round highlight reel TKO.

Then he beat Evan Tanner again. We've already been over Evan's credentials so I'll just barely touch on this. However, typically when a fighter loses (especially a champion) he will come back with a more well thought out game plan and can usually win the rematch. (See Arlovski/ Sylvia, Couture/ Liddell, Penn/ Hughes) Evan however was probably beaten more dominantly in this fight than in the last. Both times he had his face pretty much re-arranged by Franklin and this time lost the belt.

Nate Quarry was probably the biggest mis-match for Rich Franklin in Rich's UFC run. Quarry wasn't on Franklin's level especially that night. The only thing is, Quarry had been on a TEAR in the UFC and was highly favored to win TUF 1. He beat such seasoned vets as Shonie Carter and Pete "Drago" Sell, both in dominant knockout fashion. The guy was looking really good, but was overwhelmed by Franklin because he had never faced competition on such an intense level.

David Louiseau was probably Rich's toughest test in the octagon at this point. This was the only fight Rich had in his career that went to decision. Louiseau is FEARED for his striking, mainly for his vicious elbows. He was impressing tons of people with his fights in the UFC, especially against Charles McCarthy which was probably one of the 5 best knockouts in UFC history. Many saw The Crow as the favorite in this fight because of his lethal elbows. The only problem was, he was incapable of utilizing this skill in the fight as Franklin put The Crow's standup to shame, and never allowed himself to take elbows from the bottom. He neutralized every aspect of Louiseau's game, and even had him literally turning his back and running at a couple points in the fight.

Anderson Silva just had Franklin outclassed, and performed better that night. Franklin is NOT over-rated, and in fact is probably highly under-rated still at this point in his career. With a 22-2 record, I'd say he's a true force and should not be taken lightly by anyone at any time for any reason. I just hope Anderson Silva doesn't take him lightly in a rematch because Franklin is going to come back focused, he's going to be more prepared especially in the clinch, and most of all, he is going to want his belt back.

Wow..I love you man. These are my sentiments exactly. Rich has beaten very tough competition many times and has only lost twice, to world-class fighters. And the only decision of his 22 wins was a one-sided @$$ beating of a great striker in Loiseau. I feel Rich couldn't finish that fight because he got injured early on - broke his power left hand in the second round - and hairline fractured his right foot and tore ligaments in his right hand. Also because Loiseau ran from him in that fight, although he's very tough and was therefore able to go the distance with Rich. Anyways..that was a bit off-topic but I've read a lot of posts (not here) recently criticizing Rich for his first decision win. You know a guy is good when people are criticizing him for winning by a dominant decision. Machida beat Rich in devastating fashion, but Rich bounced right back and became UFC middleweight champion, a title that I believe he will regain. I also noticed that Rich looked soft in the Silva fight, he wasn't as ripped as he usually is, and Gurgel was saying that Rich caught a bug and had diarrhea leading up to the fight, but I don't think we're going to hear excuses from Rich, because he's a warrior.

[dagreat1]

Originally Posted by blah

Gurgel was saying that Rich caught a bug and had diarrhea leading up to the fight, but I don't think we're going to hear excuses from Rich, because he's a warrior.

That is typical fighter excuse. Tito is a master at it. Franklin won't make any excuses, he is a man. I have watched some training with Franklin and Gurgel and they are running sprints while dragging a weighted sled and Gurgel makes feminie noises while he works out and Franklin man's up and doesn't make any wincing noises, he takes punishment like a man and I respect him for that.

[Nate_Deezy]

Originally Posted by dagreat1

You just brought up Ken Shamrock???? He was what 39 years old at the time? All you can say about him is legendary? I can say a little bit more about him.... OVER THE HILL. He was nowhere near as fast, strong, or athletic as he was in his prime 10+ years ago. Him almost heel hooking Franklin is a bad thing for Franklin, not a good thing for Shamrock.

I brought up Shamrock because if I didn't, ass holes like you would harass me about it.

"I love that you forgot to mention he had Shamrock fed to him on a silver platter by Dana White because he was billed as a poster boy, and that compromises his legitimacy as a fighter."

No fighter who walks into the octagon is a sure feed. You can't feed someone to a fighter because anytime someone goes in there swinging, a knockout is possible. Don't believe me? Joe Lauzon/ Jens Pulver.

[blah]

Originally Posted by dagreat1

That is typical fighter excuse. Tito is a master at it. Franklin won't make any excuses, he is a man. I have watched some training with Franklin and Gurgel and they are running sprints while dragging a weighted sled and Gurgel makes feminie noises while he works out and Franklin man's up and doesn't make any wincing noises, he takes punishment like a man and I respect him for that.

Yeah Tito, true heh. After the Silva fight when Franklin's nose looked worse than Quarry's he was still taking it like a man. Haha Gurgel making feminine noises?? I'd like to see his war with Abbadi.

[dagreat1]

Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy

I brought up Shamrock because if I didn't, ass holes like you would harass me about it.

"I love that you forgot to mention he had Shamrock fed to him on a silver platter by Dana White because he was billed as a poster boy, and that compromises his legitimacy as a fighter."

No fighter who walks into the octagon is a sure feed. You can't feed someone to a fighter because anytime someone goes in there swinging, a knockout is possible. Don't believe me? Joe Lauzon/ Jens Pulver.

Assholes like me? slow your roll... I am making valid pioints, don't get your panties in a bunch. You were trying to say good things about Shamrock to hype Franklins victory but rightfully so, all you could come with was that Shamrock is a legend.

It is your statement not mine, I am just disecting it.

[Kewl144]

Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy

....If I remember correctly, he took a pretty bad beating from Machida....in the middle of his DOMINANT run (and title reign) in the UFC. That really didn't seem to throw him off too much. I can't understand how one loss changes someone's entire opinion of a fighter. I can't wait to get online the first time Fedor loses and watch all the whining and nut-hugging. A loss is inevitable in any fighter's career, and it's not like he lost to some slouch. In fact, he hasn't fought a slouch in recent memory. Let's take a look...

I never had a high opinion of him anyway, so my opinion hasnt really changed. And I was fully expecting all the excuses to be made in defense of what many fans regard as a magically fighter. The same thing happened when A.A lost his belt after being built up to be some kind of indestructible machine.

In his UFC debut, he beat Evan Tanner who was at the time the UFC middleweight champion. I believe he beat him in a non-title fight, and that's what earned him a title shot. Now....say what you want about Evan Tanner, but that guy's for real. He is a tough as nails competitor with a 32-6-0 record and has beaten some really fierce competition. (Phil Baroni twice, Heath Herring, Robbie Lawler, and David Terrell) No matter who the champion is, it is crazy impressive to beat a champion in your UFC debut, almost unheard of.

Tanner is a one dimensional wrestler with some ground and pound and knowledge of the few average submissions. Sure he's tuff, but theres nothing overly special about his fight game.

Edwin Dewees...once again say what you want about him, but his 34-9-0 record is pretty impressive. Especially with 27 of those fights being won by submission, and only 4 going the distance. Out of all those fights he's only been knocked out twice, and Rich had little difficulty knocking him out.

Sure Dewees has a lot of fights but he wasnt even suppose to fight Franklin that night. He only got the fight because of another fighter having to pull out. He was also only 21 years old (which is 10 years away from MMA "prime years"). Franklin beat up a kid who kept coming at him and he still had trouble stopping Dewees. oh and he didnt knock him out, it was a ref. stoppage.

Jorge Rivera is probably one of the most under-rated fighters out there right now. He's a very solid fighter, although definitely not A-level, he's a solid mid-card fighter with an impressive win over David Louiseau under his belt. And with 8 K.O's on his record, he's definitely no slouch in the stand-up, which is where Franklin excels, so Jorge should have probably matched up with him better. He was, however, picked apart by Franklin.

Most underrated? Why? Because he lost to Leben? Or because he lost his "come back" fight? He's not a dominant striker and Franklin couldnt outstrike him and had to take it to the ground to get a win. it was a good win by Franklin but it wasnt a win over a dominant fighter or even a fighter who was close to being on top of his weight division. He wasnt picked apart either. Franklin couldnt outstrike him and took it to the ground for an arm bar victory.

Ken Shamrock...only way to describe him....legendary. He was one of the first actual mixed martial artists in the UFC because he was well versed in both striking and grappling. His reputation and monacre as "The World's Most Dangerous Man" were very much earned and well deserved in the early days of his career, and even in the later years. He was just unfortunately matched up against some of the best young talent out there. He almost had Franklin in a heel hook during the fight, and Franklin was able to overcome the adversity and secure a first round highlight reel TKO.

Shamrock...legendary? Are you new to MMA? A tuf bandwagon fan? Shamrock has been losing for awhile. The guy looked like a joke in with Franklin. His time has long been over. Even his dreaded leg lock wasnt doing anything. He's never been the world's most dangerous man...well other than when a WWF writer, wrote the win for him. You seriously want to list Shamrock as one of Rich's greatest moments? Shammy was used to get Franklin over with the fans before Franklin punked down to a smaller weight class to try and bully his opponents.

Then he beat Evan Tanner again. We've already been over Evan's credentials so I'll just barely touch on this. However, typically when a fighter loses (especially a champion) he will come back with a more well thought out game plan and can usually win the rematch. (See Arlovski/ Sylvia, Couture/ Liddell, Penn/ Hughes) Evan however was probably beaten more dominantly in this fight than in the last. Both times he had his face pretty much re-arranged by Franklin and this time lost the belt.

But he wasnt even knocked out...oh and see above.

Nate Quarry was probably the biggest mis-match for Rich Franklin in Rich's UFC run. Quarry wasn't on Franklin's level especially that night. The only thing is, Quarry had been on a TEAR in the UFC and was highly favored to win TUF 1. He beat such seasoned vets as Shonie Carter and Pete "Drago" Sell, both in dominant knockout fashion. The guy was looking really good, but was overwhelmed by Franklin because he had never faced competition on such an intense level.

A tear? He beat the little guy that Bobby Southworth beat up on the first fight of TUF 1, Shonie Carter and Pete Sell. Oh yea lots of notable names there. He wasnt favored to win TUF 1. It's just what Dana kept saying to hype his later fights. Again, use your head instead of falling into Dana's marketing traps. The fight with Sell should never have been stopped. He didnt knockout Sell so how exactly can you claim that he beat him in "dominant knockout fashion":d Nate was a can and he was fed to Franklin as a can.

David Louiseau was probably Rich's toughest test in the octagon at this point. This was the only fight Rich had in his career that went to decision. Louiseau is FEARED for his striking, mainly for his vicious elbows. He was impressing tons of people with his fights in the UFC, especially against Charles McCarthy which was probably one of the 5 best knockouts in UFC history. Many saw The Crow as the favorite in this fight because of his lethal elbows. The only problem was, he was incapable of utilizing this skill in the fight as Franklin put The Crow's standup to shame, and never allowed himself to take elbows from the bottom. He neutralized every aspect of Louiseau's game, and even had him literally turning his back and running at a couple points in the fight.

Louiseau was one of Franklin's tougher opponents but certainly the Crow isnt the cream of the crop for MMA fighters. And he isnt feared for his striking, but rather he's known for his elbows. And for all the praise you give Franklin during the fight, the first time he fights an average striker, he couldnt stop him.

Anderson Silva just had Franklin outclassed, and performed better that night. Franklin is NOT over-rated, and in fact is probably highly under-rated still at this point in his career. With a 22-2 record, I'd say he's a true force and should not be taken lightly by anyone at any time for any reason. I just hope Anderson Silva doesn't take him lightly in a rematch because Franklin is going to come back focused, he's going to be more prepared especially in the clinch, and most of all, he is going to want his belt back.

Not to be taken lightly by anyone in the UFC anyway. I noticed that you didnt even bother mentioning a couple in between fights like Franklins wins over Curtis Stout (11wins, 10 losses), Ralph Dilon (1 loss), Leo Sylvest (7 wins, 19 losses) and the list of cans continue. Franklin has always been a good fighter but I never viewed his game as being anything great. He's suppose to be some kind of an amazing striker but his punches are sloppy and by his one admission, he isnt a very technical fighter. He's just a good fighter, but nothing great (that I could ever see). I never really understood the hype around him. And again, nothing against him as a person but I never bought into the marketing hype surrounding the fighter.