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[Palma]

Originally Posted by fishy

I have watched all of the gsp fights, i understand he got submitted by hughes, i dont remember the penn fight well enough but from what i remember he wasn't in guard, when he did take kos down it wasn't just merely from kos's leg kicks, i dont even think kos threw that many leg kicks i would have to watch the fight again, but either way he took him down at will kos and hughes were all american wrestlers and gsp took them down at will, penn is not an all american wrestler so he is also going to be taken down at will

Man, you sound defeated.

Look... GSP is a great wrestler. He always was, but Penn has some of the best takedown Defense in MMA along with GSP. And I'm not saying GSP isn't a good wrestler, but he was always a good wrestler. And he had problems taking down Penn in their first fight. Couture who is a obviously a lot bigger then GSP and Penn and was also a 4X all american and 2X NCAA champ finalist said he has a really hard time taking Penn down. So No I don not agree that GSP can take him down at will. As if taking Penn down is going to help him win.

Originally Posted by fishy

and no he didnt take hughes down before the penn fight he knocked his ass out with a head kick

that was their second fight that happened the Penn fight... I'm talking about the first fight when GSP lost.

Originally Posted by fishy

i take back my statement about the olympic team, gsp said himself in an interview that he was going to try out but never did cuz he was going to fight hughes instead....dude no matter what if you can make an olympic wrestling team, you wrestling skills are going to be pretty dominant from most other fighters

He didn't make it to the Olympic team... he was going to try and out and he trained with them like a lot of MMA fighters are doing these days.

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by fishy

I have watched all of the gsp fights, i understand he got submitted by hughes, i dont remember the penn fight well enough but from what i remember he wasn't in guard, when he did take kos down it wasn't just merely from kos's leg kicks, i dont even think kos threw that many leg kicks i would have to watch the fight again, but either way he took him down at will kos and hughes were all american wrestlers and gsp took them down at will, penn is not an all american wrestler so he is also going to be taken down at will

and no he didnt take hughes down before the penn fight he knocked his ass out with a head kick

i take back my statement about the olympic team, gsp said himself in an interview that he was going to try out but never did cuz he was going to fight hughes instead....dude no matter what if you can make an olympic wrestling team, you wrestling skills are going to be pretty dominant from most other fighters

Fishy are you sure u watched all of GSP's fights because I can name you five fights where GSP was on his back. Plus you said "he didn't take down hughes before the penn fight he knocked his ass out with a head kick". Just to correct you, he TKO'd hughes with a head kick AFTER he fought Penn and in all 3 fights with Hughes (including the head kick one), he took hughes down.

Also who cares if BJ is not an all american wrestler... his TDD is not even wrestling based, its his incredible flexibility and balance. Fighters have a very hard time dealing with it.

yea if you make the wrestling team, you have outstanding skills but he never made it nor did he try out for it... he was considering trying out for it. That's completely different.

GSP is my favourite fighter but statements like yours is why people pick on GSP nuthuggers so much. Really look into your facts before you make ridiculous statements such as "GSP is 10x the fighter he was and that's why he will beat BJ".... what kind of argument is that?



Edit: Damn you palma, you beat me by a minute.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by bitch trash

I have seen MANY people assume fighters are the same, even so much as saying Bobby Southworth is always a boring fighter(granted I don't like him, but my point still stands) and recently how they're simply saying that GSP either can't win because of this, or BJ can't win because of that. Every fight, no matter who's fighting, is a toss up unless a fighter has shown no improvement. So who wins is based on MANY factors...Not just striking, ground game, etc...Which people seem to focus on ONE of those and say "well this person is going to win because of that" which is a dumb logic to have.

So you basically just questioned my logic, but agreed with me at the end? Cause that is all what I was referring to is that no one is invincible and to automatically think someone can't be beat because of this or that is dumb when everyone improves.

I questioned your logic when you stated that MANY in here state that no one can win this fight or that fight, etc... Then I stated my personal opinion on the subject, whether or not MY opinion agreed with what you ultimately think is a moot point. Everyone on the board knows that any fighter has a shot at winning any fight. That is just common sense. But we as fans and fighters ourselves get on the board to point out the skillsets and talk about strengths and weaknesses of each fighter and then make our judgement based on those things as to who wins the fight. I mean if we didn't talk about these things and just said "well either fighter has a chance of winning just because there is always that chance," then we wouldn't have shit to talk about on the boards and there really wouldn't be any since in logging on. Most of us base our arguments on facts and not chance. We talk about the skillsets, including cardio and all the way down to the mental aspect. In some matchups, Silva/Cote, Silva/Franklin, etc...one aspect (standup) won those fights and that is just the way it goes. Yes I agreed with you on the fact that any fighter has a chance at any time, but I disagree in your statement about some fights are not going to be won based on one thing. There are many fights that are going to be won based on standup or ground game, etc...

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by TN94z

I'll take BJ winning for a 1 month sig bet

Excellent! It's a bet. I've got GSP taking it.

Do you want to add anything else, like specifying method of victory, which round/decision, etc.? I don't think further details are necessary, but if you want to, I suppose we could work something out.

[Lazarus]

Fishy & Palma - you two wanna hold hands and go out for a date now or after the fight?

[tapper]

Originally Posted by sodium_nitrate

actually, no one can really tell how good gsp's guard is because he's only spent 5 minutes in total on his back for his whole career. and he seems to find a way to get off his back pretty easily.

yeah, 1 was a arm bar tap to hughes.

[Matrix]

I'm a fan of GSP, but I have to say I'm a bit nervous about this fight. I'd feel a lot better if GSP had finished Fitch, but the fact that the fight went the distance through 5 rounds plants some doubt in my mind. Hopefully GSP makes the necessary adjustments and trains like a mofo for this one.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by smoogy

I think what Palma is saying is that GSP's off the charts stamina and strength allow him to cut some corners when it comes to technical fighting; for example, he doesn't really have any formal wrestling pedigree, but his ability to quickly get and then drive through a takedown attempt is undeniable. And outside of having a solid jab and good kicks, he isn't exactly a technical muay thai fighter. And in terms of BJJ, he is great at the top game, but like in all facets of MMA, we don't see much of him working on defense. Taking all that into account, its fair to say that GSP isn't a "technical" fighter in the true sense of the word

This is really, really well said.

Originally Posted by atj-lucko

Penn nutthuggers keep saying how out of shape Penn was in their first fight, but it wasn't his cardio that failed him in that fight.
He couldn't knock out GSP standing, he couldn't submit GSP or control him on the ground. Whats changed in Penn's game since then?

I don't know anyone who is saying Penn's cardio didn't fail him that fight. I have said that his cardio isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be, because he's only gassed in one other fight [other than GSP, it's the Uno fight] and people often overlook how gassed GSP was as well.

Look at it this way: if Georges spent himself outworking an out-of-shape Penn, I'm not certain he's going to be able to overwhelm him like many people apparently think he will.

I also think you're overlooking how cardio can effect all aspects of a fighters game. It clearly affected Penn's TDD, and I'm sure it effected the crispness/speed/accuracy/power of his strikes, his willingness to commit to combinations, etc.

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

I think I go back and forth on who I think will win. I guess I've thought about the rematch ever since the first fight and have changed my mind about a million times. As Palma said, I think this is the most debated topic of all time in this forum, so instead I have been just wondering what each fighter's game plan will be.

I really expect GSP to really test Penn's cardio. If GSP truly believes he has the better cardio then he's going to try to suck the gas out of BJ's tank. I see him trying to smother him against the cage and having a very conservative GnP style much like his fight against Serra. Although Serra has great BJJ, I always believed Serra had a great top game and not that great of a bottom game... BJ on the other hand has both but your ability to grapple deteriorates when you're pinned up against the cage but your ability to get up using the cage increases.

I expect BJ will have a harder time taking GSP down than vice versa, so I expect him to just bang it out and try to hurt GSP on the feet so it will be forced to the ground. From there, he works his superior grappling skills. If GSP ends up on his back, it will be a really bad situation. I just can't see him escaping the back door like he did to Fitch but let's see if the fight even ends up there.

Just from their expected gameplans is how I know BJ is the higher level technician. GSP will use his size, athleticism and wrestling to weather BJ early in the fight and BJ has to use technique to try to hurt GSP enough to take him to the ground.

I'm very interested to see how their gameplans will clash.

Another outstanding post that deserves recognition.

Originally Posted by fishy

his wrestling has actually improved to a point where hes probably the best in mma right now, he takes actual credible wrestlers bigger then him like rashad evans down at will during training, he was actually trying out for the canadian olympic wrestling team but dropped out to fight hughes when serra got injured, and he outwrestled credible wrestlers such as kos, hughes and fitch...

Originally Posted by fishy

...i dont even think kos threw that many leg kicks i would have to watch the fight again, but either way he took him down at will kos and hughes were all american wrestlers and gsp took them down at will, penn is not an all american wrestler so he is also going to be taken down at will...

This is an almost perfect example of the issue I have with GSP nuthuggers. Repeating baseless inflated rumors, overlooking actual events that were contributing factors in his fights and using terms like: he'll do this at will" or that at will.

GSP is a tremendously talented fighter. No, he's not as technical as Penn, but he's physically gifted and he's driven to improve. He's not willing to rest on his athletic talents, and he's working his ass off. And most importantly, he's likeable. Aside from an ill-advised publicity stunt coming into the cage after Hughes' win [which I seriously doubt was his idea] and one misstep with Serra [which was probably more of a language barrier]; he's stayed clear of any melodrama and is a great ambassador of the sport...but he's not the second coming of Fedor.

Hell, even Fedor isn't the second coming of Fedor. Fucker just lost at Sambo and the world is obviously coming to an abrupt end.*

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

Fishy are you sure u watched all of GSP's fights because I can name you five fights where GSP was on his back. Plus you said "he didn't take down hughes before the penn fight he knocked his ass out with a head kick". Just to correct you, he TKO'd hughes with a head kick AFTER he fought Penn and in all 3 fights with Hughes (including the head kick one), he took hughes down.

Also who cares if BJ is not an all american wrestler... his TDD is not even wrestling based, its his incredible flexibility and balance. Fighters have a very hard time dealing with it.

yea if you make the wrestling team, you have outstanding skills but he never made it nor did he try out for it... he was considering trying out for it. That's completely different.

GSP is my favourite fighter but statements like yours is why people pick on GSP nuthuggers so much. Really look into your facts before you make ridiculous statements such as "GSP is 10x the fighter he was and that's why he will beat BJ".... what kind of argument is that?

Doc, you've become my favorite poster recently, just thought you should know. Word-for-word top 3 ranking...

rh

*I'm kidding. Please forgive my blasphemy, Fedor.

[fishy]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

Fishy are you sure u watched all of GSP's fights because I can name you five fights where GSP was on his back. Plus you said "he didn't take down hughes before the penn fight he knocked his ass out with a head kick". Just to correct you, he TKO'd hughes with a head kick AFTER he fought Penn and in all 3 fights with Hughes (including the head kick one), he took hughes down.

have you even been reading any of my posts, i never said gsp was never on his back, I simply said he wasn't on his back long enough in any of his past 3 or 4 fights for anyone to say that he has a "weak guard"
and I never said that he never took hughes down, its an mma fight, its bound to end up on the ground, but his main focus that second fight (the one with the head kick) was to keep it standing and knock him out on the feet

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

Also who cares if BJ is not an all american wrestler... his TDD is not even wrestling based, its his incredible flexibility and balance. Fighters have a very hard time dealing with it.

from my recollection gsp got quite a few takedowns in the second and third rounds in their first fight, bj penn was actually upset because gsp won that fight by takedowns, i recall bj saying in one of his interviews that its not a takedown match, its an mma match-so bj admits to gsp taking him what makes you believe he can't

and if you want to blame his takedowns on bj's cardio then i can just as easily say that bj won the first round on the feet because he poked gsp in the eye in the first minute of that round-where gsp openly stated that his vision was blurry throughout the entire round

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

yea if you make the wrestling team, you have outstanding skills but he never made it nor did he try out for it... he was considering trying out for it. That's completely different.

and yes if your training full time with the canadian wrestling team then your wrestling skills are going to develop to the level higher than normal
GSP actually stated that he believes he would have done really well simply based off his training with his training partners on the team. add that to his athletic ability and his ability to mix it up well with his stand up you have one of the best takedowns in all of mma

gsp has actually grown physically as well you can notice the difference and if you cant he even says it on one of dana's video blogs (i think ufc 89) thats he's maturing and his bone structure is growing as well
gsp is all around different from when he first fought penn

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

GSP is my favourite fighter but statements like yours is why people pick on GSP nuthuggers so much. Really look into your facts before you make ridiculous statements such as "GSP is 10x the fighter he was and that's why he will beat BJ".... what kind of argument is that?

may be i exaggerated a little bit with the 10x the fighter he is from before, but for you to deny that he has not evolved into a much better fighter since the penn fight means you have no clue what your talking about and your hating on the dude, the guy started training with olympic wrestling team about 3 years ago, the guy just got his bjj black belt, as far as i know he has stated that he knows his stand up needs improvement-so i'm guessing hes working on that as well. I dont think you have seen any gsp fights because had you watched you could actually notice the progression in wrestling, stand up and his ground game, so next time you watch a fight dont just look at the pictures but watch the guy fighting lol

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by Matrix

Excellent! It's a bet. I've got GSP taking it.

Do you want to add anything else, like specifying method of victory, which round/decision, etc.? I don't think further details are necessary, but if you want to, I suppose we could work something out.

I think I want to leave this one the way it is. It is too hard to get specific on this fight IMO