MMA News Forums » MMA Forums » General MMA Forum

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by Palma

You don't think it's a coincendent that a 20 year old world class wrestler goes straight into a Canadian college, wins every match, and then continues to be a world class wrestler and not one Canadian born/ Canadian trained wrestler has done even close to the same? I think knowledge of wrestling is besides the point... this is just plain common sense. I'm all for playing Devil's Advocate, but this is a lame argument imo.

I play devil's advocate quite a bit. I think it stems from my background debating ethical issues in healthcare.

It's true that he whooped everyone in college, went undefeated and then went on to win an olympic gold medal but prior to that he wasn't able to make the cut into the Nigerian Olympic team. What we do know is that he did make the team in Canada (which was probably easier) but then went ahead and beat the world in the Olympics.

I have a hard time attributing it to the Canadian wrestling training, as their training is very poor compared to other nations. However, my reasoning is that his level of wrestling wasn't near olympic Calibre in his days in Nigeria but increased greatly throughout his time in Canada and eventually peaked there. I don't know what to attribute that to. If it's not the Canadian training itself, it may be the lifestyle and environment factors of Canada as it was well publicized that those factors were poor in Nigeria but something of Canada seemed to push him to the level he ended up getting to.

[Masscore]

1. He won't make the team so this discussion is almost pointless. Anyone that really knows wrestling knows this. He may have the best wrestling in MMA, but this is not MMA. This is the highest level of wrestling and most these guys have been doing it since they were 7. Anyone that really breaks down GSP's wrestling knows he does things that you wouldn't do in wrestling matches (look this his throw against Hughes, and a couple of his takedowns against Penn). He gets away with this all because in MMA you can punch guys in the face. In wrestling, guys don't have to worry about getting punched in the face and will pick the mistakes GSP makes apart.

2. Even if he makes the team (which he won't) he is going into loaded wieghtclasses on the world stage. 163 and 185 are both very tough divisions on the world stage and GSP will get crushed. Also, just because he makes the team does not mean he goes to the Olympics, Canada would have to earn his spot for him or he would have to do it himself. Which won't happen either cause I doubt the guys on Canada's team right now could quailify for the olympics. (Gentry barely made the Olympics in 2008 and Canada did not have anyone make it for 185).

GSP has the best takedowns in MMA and he proves it time and time again. But wrestling is not MMA and I would put money down that Hughes, Fitch, Trigg and Kos would beat GSP in wrestling matches and none of those guys are olympic level wrestlers. GSP needs to stick with what he does best and that is MMA.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

I play devil's advocate quite a bit. I think it stems from my background debating ethical issues in healthcare.

It's true that he whooped everyone in college, went undefeated and then went on to win an olympic gold medal but prior to that he wasn't able to make the cut into the Nigerian Olympic team. What we do know is that he did make the team in Canada (which was probably easier) but then went ahead and beat the world in the Olympics.

Lol, or he was only 18 year old when the 1992 Olympics took place. How many 18 year olds do think have competed in Olympic wrestling? and he wasn't a Canadian citizen yet for the 1996 Olympics... it would have been hard to compete for Nigeria while defecting in Canada and it would have been hard to compete for Canada as a Nigerian citizen. And the first chance he gets to compete in the Olympics he wins Gold, but that was all Canada, right?

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

I have a hard time attributing it to the Canadian wrestling training, as their training is very poor compared to other nations. However, my reasoning is that his level of wrestling wasn't near olympic Calibre in his days in Nigeria but increased greatly throughout his time in Canada and eventually peaked there. I don't know what to attribute that to. If it's not the Canadian training itself, it may be the lifestyle and environment factors of Canada as it was well publicized that those factors were poor in Nigeria but something of Canada seemed to push him to the level he ended up getting to.

What the hell are you talking about? He was competing in the Commonwealth Games at 20 years old against Olympic caliber wrestlers. If you are competing at the Commonwealth Games, the Good Will Games, or the Pan Ams you are on your way to becoming an Olympic wrestler, if you are not already.

It's not like he decided he wanted to move to Canada one day... he defected the first chance he got and it happened to be in Canada. I'm sure if he had a choice he would have come here where he could have trained with a real Olympic team.

Do you know how many Freestyle Olympic Gold Medals Canada has besides Igalis'? the answe is none. Not one single Gold medal in the history of the Olympics, but yes... it was all Canada that got this guy, who couldn't make the Nigerian Olympic team at age 18, his Gold medal.

I really don't know why it's so hard for GSP fans to accept that Canada has an inferior Wrestling program to almost all other wrestling programs. I don't give a shit that we have horrible men's soccer teams, or that the best Hocky players come from Canada. It's as simple as different countries focus on different sports. I think it makes GSP look even better that he is such a good wrestler from a country with bad wrestling, but I'm glad he fights MMA and doesn't wrestle or none of you would know who the hell he is just like you don't know who any of the wrestlers are in Canada. They get no fan support from their country yet everyone's and expert on the subject.

[mattyc]

Originally Posted by Palma

It's not like he decided he wanted to move to Canada one day... he defected the first chance he got and it happened to be in Canada. I'm sure if he had a choice he would have come here where he could have trained with a real Olympic team.

Maybe he chose to defect to a country that, despite having a poor athletic training community, is a really really swell place to live...?

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by Palma

Lol, or he was only 18 year old when the 1992 Olympics took place. How many 18 year olds do think have competed in Olympic wrestling? and he wasn't a Canadian citizen yet for the 1996 Olympics... it would have been hard to compete for Nigeria while defecting in Canada and it would have been hard to compete for Canada as a Nigerian citizen. And the first chance he gets to compete in the Olympics he wins Gold, but that was all Canada, right?



What the hell are you talking about? He was competing in the Commonwealth Games at 20 years old against Olympic caliber wrestlers. If you are competing at the Commonwealth Games, the Good Will Games, or the Pan Ams you are on your way to becoming an Olympic wrestler, if you are not already.

It's not like he decided he wanted to move to Canada one day... he defected the first chance he got and it happened to be in Canada. I'm sure if he had a choice he would have come here where he could have trained with a real Olympic team.

Do you know how many Freestyle Olympic Gold Medals Canada has besides Igalis'? the answe is none. Not one single Gold medal in the history of the Olympics, but yes... it was all Canada that got this guy, who couldn't make the Nigerian Olympic team at age 18, his Gold medal.

I really don't know why it's so hard for GSP fans to accept that Canada has an inferior Wrestling program to almost all other wrestling programs. I don't give a shit that we have horrible men's soccer teams, or that the best Hocky players come from Canada. It's as simple as different countries focus on different sports. I think it makes GSP look even better that he is such a good wrestler from a country with bad wrestling, but I'm glad he fights MMA and doesn't wrestle or none of you would know who the hell he is just like you don't know who any of the wrestlers are in Canada. They get no fan support from their country yet everyone's and expert on the subject.

No, I see your points and I guess I was attempting to see if there was any other reason in itself that he performed even better but I have nothing to support this.

I'm not sure if you were talking about me in the last paragraph as it was part of the whole post, but to make it clear, I do not think Canada has a good wrestling program at all, in fact I think their training in many sports in sub-par and this has a lot to do with their limited funding allocated to sports, especially at a college level.

Also, to give my opinion on the topic of this thread, I don't think GSP is going to make it to the olympic team at all. I appreciate the fact that amateur and MMA wrestling are different. To be honest, GSP may be one of the most effective wrestlers in MMA but he definitely doesn't have the best technique. The reasons he is so effective is because of his timing that is attributed largely to how well he mixes up his strikes and takedowns, combined with his explosiveness and athleticism. This is also similar reasons of why he is effective in striking because of the ability to take the fighter down and out of his element when he chooses.

[U shut ur FACE]

Originally Posted by Masscore

GSP has the best takedowns in MMA and he proves it time and time again. But wrestling is not MMA and I would put money down that Hughes, Fitch, Trigg and Kos would beat GSP in wrestling matches and none of those guys are olympic level wrestlers. GSP needs to stick with what he does best and that is MMA.

I see this a lot throughout this thread and it is a valid point but it doesn't prove one side or the other. Yes, GSP has displayed better wrestling than his opponents in the past and that does prove that he has great adapted MMA wrestling; which doesn't necessarily mean he's a great wrestler but a great mixed martial artist. However, when people say this as if it discredits him in the world of wrestling when it should be noted that because there is an absence of information (GSP's pure wrestling ability) it does not create information (he won't be very good).

In other words, I can't assume GSP doesn't have the capability to wrestle at an Olympic level because I don't know where he stands with pure wrestling, or how well the training ACTUALLY is in Canada etc... GSP has displayed amazing athletecism with his run at the belt and rain as champion, and for me to doubt that he can wrestle at an Olympic level is presumptuous because of the lack of information and doubtful given the amount of talent he has already shown.

In my opinion, he very well may be able to compete at that level, but I don't know. I think it's a huge challenge and will take years to train for but the guy still has time to do this. Think what you want but I don't feel that we can reach a valid conclusion based on the fact that MMA wrestling is not full blown wrestling, because by that we assume he would have trouble with the other when he may be even better at the other, who knows.

[KnowledgeKnown]

Originally Posted by U shut ur FACE

I see this a lot throughout this thread and it is a valid point but it doesn't prove one side or the other. Yes, GSP has displayed better wrestling than his opponents in the past and that does prove that he has great adapted MMA wrestling; which doesn't necessarily mean he's a great wrestler but a great mixed martial artist. However, when people say this as if it discredits him in the world of wrestling when it should be noted that because there is an absence of information (GSP's pure wrestling ability) it does not create information (he won't be very good).

In other words, I can't assume GSP doesn't have the capability to wrestle at an Olympic level because I don't know where he stands with pure wrestling, or how well the training ACTUALLY is in Canada etc... GSP has displayed amazing athletecism with his run at the belt and rain as champion, and for me to doubt that he can wrestle at an Olympic level is presumptuous because of the lack of information and doubtful given the amount of talent he has already shown.

In my opinion, he very well may be able to compete at that level, but I don't know. I think it's a huge challenge and will take years to train for but the guy still has time to do this. Think what you want but I don't feel that we can reach a valid conclusion based on the fact that MMA wrestling is not full blown wrestling, because by that we assume he would have trouble with the other when he may be even better at the other, who knows.

You make a good point, however there is information. His technique can be examined. I posted about this earlier. So in reality, there is data to suggest he's not Olympic caliber right now.

[singinkangaroooo]

Originally Posted by U shut ur FACE

I see this a lot throughout this thread and it is a valid point but it doesn't prove one side or the other. Yes, GSP has displayed better wrestling than his opponents in the past and that does prove that he has great adapted MMA wrestling; which doesn't necessarily mean he's a great wrestler but a great mixed martial artist. However, when people say this as if it discredits him in the world of wrestling when it should be noted that because there is an absence of information (GSP's pure wrestling ability) it does not create information (he won't be very good).

In other words, I can't assume GSP doesn't have the capability to wrestle at an Olympic level because I don't know where he stands with pure wrestling, or how well the training ACTUALLY is in Canada etc... GSP has displayed amazing athletecism with his run at the belt and rain as champion, and for me to doubt that he can wrestle at an Olympic level is presumptuous because of the lack of information and doubtful given the amount of talent he has already shown.

In my opinion, he very well may be able to compete at that level, but I don't know. I think it's a huge challenge and will take years to train for but the guy still has time to do this. Think what you want but I don't feel that we can reach a valid conclusion based on the fact that MMA wrestling is not full blown wrestling, because by that we assume he would have trouble with the other when he may be even better at the other, who knows.

lol! i had a post saying the exact same thing and then my comp crashed so i was too lazy to retype it =P

Originally Posted by KnowledgeKnown

You make a good point, however there is information. His technique can be examined. I posted about this earlier. So in reality, there is data to suggest he's not Olympic caliber right now.

ur citing technique from his hughes throw if im not mistaken? but that is MMA wrestling... that is how he trained his wrestling skills.. just to fit to MMA... if he changed his training to pure wrestling the technique would be different i imagine...

for example the technique for a double leg is different in MMA than it is in wrestling.. in pure wrestling you split their leg with the lead leg, head at the hip, followed by the trail leg, and drive at a T (perpendicular)blocking the knee.. some ppl like to slam i wasnt one of them

but in MMA you have to worry about the choke.. so if you shoot for a double you kind of have to do more of a double with ur head in their chest or u have to duck your neck.. you also have to make more of an effort to pass guard.. there are just differences in how you do takedowns... but as far as GSPs technique on his throws i see a lot of judo in there so there are differences in the technique.. i think his wrestling gets a lot of credit for his throws and what not when there is alot of judo.. thats just me tho

[KnowledgeKnown]

Originally Posted by singinkangaroooo

lol! i had a post saying the exact same thing and then my comp crashed so i was too lazy to retype it =P



ur citing technique from his hughes throw if im not mistaken? but that is MMA wrestling... that is how he trained his wrestling skills.. just to fit to MMA... if he changed his training to pure wrestling the technique would be different i imagine...

for example the technique for a double leg is different in MMA than it is in wrestling.. in pure wrestling you split their leg with the lead leg, head at the hip, followed by the trail leg, and drive at a T (perpendicular)blocking the knee.. some ppl like to slam i wasnt one of them

but in MMA you have to worry about the choke.. so if you shoot for a double you kind of have to do more of a double with ur head in their chest or u have to duck your neck.. you also have to make more of an effort to pass guard.. there are just differences in how you do takedowns... but as far as GSPs technique on his throws i see a lot of judo in there so there are differences in the technique.. i think his wrestling gets a lot of credit for his throws and what not when there is alot of judo.. thats just me tho

Yes, Obviously he would have to train differently. That's my point. He's not ready right now. And if his technique isn't on right now, how long do you think it wold take him to get ready for the Olympics? This isn't an old timers tourney down the street. The guys he'd be wrestling, their techniques is there, and has been for 10 years already. You see this is my point. Yes his throw was effective because it's MMA. Although, the correct form would have also worked flawlessly.

Again i'm not doubting this guys athleticism, but this is insulting to men who have been training for this moment in wrestling all their lives. We can all speculate all we want. But after he doesn't win one single match in the Olympics, if he makes the team (which none of this will happen anyway) what will everyone say? What will the excuse be.

You see everyone needs to tone down this rhetoric because this is doing him a dis service. This is extremely unrealistic. Were you a serious wrestler? Because if you were and you're not insulted by the fact that all of these people who know absolutely nothing about our sport act like he can walk in and conquer it, is astounding to me.

Just so you know, No one of any reputation in the wrestling world is taking this seriously. It's a joke. I've spoken to at least 5 US ranked or formerly ranked wrestlers and they actually laugh at this. I mean people on this board are saying things like he's so explosive. No one at his weight is that explosive. It's absolute sillyness. Wrestling is based on explosiveness. This is an insult.