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[KevoOnTheRadio]

Originally Posted by Pashak

LOL Nog is not at all the best HW of all the time, its Dana again saying bullshit to make Cain and Nog look better than they really are.

We all know who is the real best HW of all time.

Damn right we do, you even mentioned it in another thread....Zuluzinho> Every HW

[rexthedog]

i can't believe it took pashak until the end of the second page before his fedor alarm went off

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted by apardo

thats because compared to his weight he practically does move like a LHW.

I disagree. In his fight with Couture, Lesnar looked to be the much slower fighter, he basically overpowered Couture with his 70 or so pound weight advantage. Couture is not a fast LHW either.

Originally Posted by apardo

As a wrestler if i pin down my opponent and hold him in a position where i can reconfigure his face, why in gods name will i want to make any other transition to another position when i am already on a very comfortable one?

I did not say his wrestling was not effective, it is very effective. However, like I said earlier about Couture, Lesnar's transitions looked slow in that fight and he when he fights he basically tries to overpower his opponents. He does not use his "speed".

Originally Posted by apardo

I agree his stand up needs alot of work but if brock pins down cain, its a done deal.

It was completely stupid for people or mir himself think that he will stand up and exchange with him when on their first fight he didnt do so. The fact that he got grazed on the back of his head saved him from a TKO.

Brock will go in their and soon as he gets outboxed hes going to take it to the ground and force his strength on cain and thats the end of it.

YouTube - Brock Lesnar post fight interview after destroying Mir!

Startin at about 1:10, you see Lesnar saying that he held Mir down in positions that his training partners get out of. I think Lesnar's ability to smother is very good, and will work against all but the top guys, and even some of those guys if they do not prepare in their training camps properly, working escapes and such against high level, large wrestlers. However, I think Velasquez is 10x the wrestler Mir is, and I think he he would do a much better job with escapes and getting out of bad positions.

Originally Posted by apardo

Im sick of ppl who think Brock Lesnar isnt what he has demonstrated he is just because he was in wwe . I agree he still has alot to learn but ts very ignorant how ppl tend to forget he was a two time NJCAA, 2x NCAA, and 2x Big Ten conference champion as well as winning the 98' NJCAA HW champ and 2000 NCAA HW champ. I dont know about you, but those are more than petty accomplishments, the guy had an amateur record of 106-5 overall.

so yes per his record and his accomplishments i firmly believe him to be a way better and more experienced wrestler than Cain Velasquez who only bears a 2 time 5A state championship.

I never mentioned the WWE. I never said he was a bad wrestler, or a bad fighter. I just don't think he is fast, and I kind of get the feeling that hearing Joe Rogan and Dana White saying how fast he is all the time has influenced a lot of people. I think he looked slow compared to Couture, and while Couture is fast at HW, he is not fast at LHW. If people want to talk about fighters being extremely fast, why not talk about BJ Penn. He has made everyone he has fought look slow, that guy is crazy fast.

I have hardly watched any amateur wrestling, and I am not going to pretend I follow NCAA sports. Sure, on paper Lesnar is the superior wrestler. But when watching their fights, I see far more technique in what Velasquez does. He transitions very fast, and has amazing technique. Velasquez really is a guy who is fast for HW. Lesnar has a great double leg takedown, and good top control. Will Lesnar be strong enough to nullify the speed advantage Velasquez has? Maybe, I personally like Velasquez more as a fighter, but the only way to know is to see them fight.

[Masscore]

Of course Fedor is a better HW then Big Nog, but it still should not take away from what Cain did. I mean he did something Fedor could not do, which was take out a healthy Big Nog and not just take him out. He put him away in violent fashion.

I hope this fight finally proves to people what I have been saying for a while now. One day Cain WILL BE the best HW in the world no questions asked. Look at how fast he has grown in just 8 fights and how good he has gotten. The sky is literally the limit for him and he probably still has 10-12 years left in the sport. There is no doubt in my mind he will be considered the best HW in the world at some point. Probably even within the next 3 years.

Now this is no knock on Fedor, but he will not be on top for ever. Sooner or later someone will pass him by and chances are that someone will be Cain. Hell I am interested in a Fedor v. Cain fight right now. Forget Lesnar, Cain is a much better fight for Fedor. Fedor would probably win right now, but few can deny that it would not be an interesting fight.

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by goodtimes

I am so sick of hearing about how Brock moves like a LHW, or a LW(according to Dana White), just because Frank Mir does not know how to sprawl and always looks surprised when Lesnar shoots a double on him. His shot is fast for a HW, but its not like he has fast hands or anything, and I haven't seen any crazy ability to make fast transitions with his wrestling game. He fights like a very big guy; his primary weapon is the right cross on the feet, he tries to run through people with his double legs, and he smothers them when it hits the ground.

People that know better have seen Brocks performance outside of MMA. Those who only look at what hes done in the UFC really have no idea of his athleticism.

Really dude hes a freak... Seriously.

[0mega1]

Originally Posted by roaddawg

People that know better have seen Brocks performance outside of MMA. Those who only look at what hes done in the UFC really have no idea of his athleticism.

Really dude hes a freak... Seriously.

"Cause he's built like a black guy"

Sorry dude i couldnt resist.

but seriously i would love to see brock v. cain way over mir v. lesnar III or carwin because as stated before cain has the stand up advantage where imo brock has the wrestling advantage and we havent seen cain (or brock for that matter) react when hes put on his back.

but either way i cant wait to see brock fight again.

[Pasha K]

Originally Posted by rexthedog

i can't believe it took pashak until the end of the second page before his fedor alarm went off

It is because when I read this thread there were already many answers.

[wolunt]

It makes complete sense to me. I just don't want anything to hold up Brock fighting again. If the winner of Mir/Carwin take any kind of real damage, just book Brock/Cain. I'm in, I would love to see it.

[apardo]

Originally Posted by goodtimes

but the only way to know is to see them fight.

Agreed! I actually look forward to it, i hope they end up fighting. Im mex and it would be great to see a mex champ and finally the latino community has a real champ to look up to instead of Tito's retarded ass.

But Brock is one of my fav, I also believe he got a title shot way too early in the game but I think he has a great amount of potential. We shall see where he goes after his surgery, for a fighter its either up or down.

Goodtimes, it was a pleasure discussing this.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by apardo

It was completely stupid for people or mir himself think that he will stand up and exchange with him when on their first fight he didnt do so. The fact that he got grazed on the back of his head saved him from a TKO.

Aside from all of the stuff that Goodtimes expertly addressed above, this is a completely dumbass statement.

Mir wasn't grazed on the back of his head. It was several, as in 3-5 strikes directly to the back of his head.

A more accurate statement would be the only thing that prevented lesnar from KOing him is that brock didn't know what the fuck he was doing yet, and was flailing away like he was trying to play whackamole.

so yes per his record and his accomplishments i firmly believe him to be a way better and more experienced wrestler than Cain Velasquez who only bears a 2 time 5A state championship.

I agree that he's more experienced and more powerful, but I don't know that he's more technical, and/or is a better grappler. I can't remember where I read it, but I thought Cain was training BJJ pretty hardcore, and won a bluebelt competition after just a year of training.

Originally Posted by Masscore

Now this is no knock on Fedor, but he will not be on top for ever. Sooner or later someone will pass him by and chances are that someone will be Cain. Hell I am interested in a Fedor v. Cain fight right now. Forget Lesnar, Cain is a much better fight for Fedor. Fedor would probably win right now, but few can deny that it would not be an interesting fight.

I agree that Cain is the first person in the UFC that I would want to see Fedor fight, but I think he still needs a year to mature, or at least a couple more really big fights.

Originally Posted by roaddawg

People that know better have seen Brocks performance outside of MMA. Those who only look at what hes done in the UFC really have no idea of his athleticism.

Unless you are referring to his NCAA tapes or his failed attempt at the NFL, there are a couple of potential issues with that...first, a lot of lesnar fans immediately whine whenever someone legitimately criticizes him that it's only because he wrestled in the WWE [overlooking any validity of the argument] so it's a bit of a double standard to bring it up as a pro if everyone wants it dismissed as a con.

Second, professional wrestling is scripted. You can't accurately guage how good a person is when their opponent is specifically paid to make them look good. Yes, it takes athleticism to be a professional wrestler, but rehearsing combinations of moves over and over again are completely different than spontaneously performing under the duress of a fight.

lesnar is athletic and tremendously physically gifted, but he's simply not a lot of the things he's often credited with: he's not the best technical wrestler in MMA, he's not the fastest HW ever, he's doesn't have great striking or striking defense, etc. He's maturing into a smart fighter who uses his gifts effectively, but he's not well rounded.

rh