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[goodtimes]

Originally Posted by lwbrewer

I don't think Kongo is a real dirty fighter more of not a good fast thinking fighter. Grabing the fench if it would be allowed their would be a lot more broken/dislocated fingers. A dirty fighter if he saw fingers in the fench would try hitting the arm/hand and get the win from stoppage. All in all I saw it as a piss poor ground fighter against a sloopy ground fighter, with questionable REFing

Buentello has decent defense on the ground, just look at his fight with Struve. Kongo is obviously not at the same level as Velasquez or any of the other top 5 or so grapplers in the UFC, but he has taken down and beaten up quite a few guys who are not terrible grapplers.

[Dsm634]

Originally Posted by TapOut27

What about the groin shot towards the end of round 2.

Let's just face it, Kongo is a proven cheater.

Kongo seems to have more fouls than most fighters, but they don't seem THAT intentional.
Maybe he should be forced to take a written test of UFC rules, kinda like the dmv. IDK maybe he is just dirty and plays dumb.
He should be penalized in the future with little warning, bc he has violated the rules more than a few times.

[lwbrewer]

Originally Posted by goodtimes

Buentello has decent defense on the ground, just look at his fight with Struve. Kongo is obviously not at the same level as Velasquez or any of the other top 5 or so grapplers in the UFC, but he has taken down and beaten up quite a few guys who are not terrible grapplers.

I called him sloppy for all the fouls he has commited. He has involved greatly with his ground game after leaving Barra [spelling]. It isn't second nature for Kongo yet and thats why he does some of the wrong things.

[beau420]

I agree with all the infractions listed.

I kinda like the idea someone pointed out to just allow grabbing the fence, but I foresee it causing new problems.

For the playing the game comment Herb made. A rule is a rule, letter of the law. Herb should have told Kongo to obey the rules. W have seen in multiple fights where a fighter is getting kneed in the chest and head, in a front choke, the fighter tries to go to 1 knee or drop a hand. The reason the rule is there is to protect a fighter from a knee to the head while on the ground (because you can get a lot more velocity on a knee the closer it is to your opponents head) If a fighter is completely hunched over like Buentello is, a knee to the face is devastating (which is what the rule is trying to prevent) Either allow knees to the face everywhere or officiate using the rules, don't skew the rules for the benefit of the crowd or punish a fighter for using the rules to his benefit.

Nearly every fighter who has been in trouble and turtled on the ground has been punched in the back of the head because they turn their face away from their opponent. How many times have you see someone fully mounted on someone's back and try and punch the opponent only to have the opponent turn the back of his head for every punch...and how often do we see the guy on the bottom get verbally warned for not taking the punch in the face, but instead turning to take it in the back of the head.

Fighters use the rules to their benefit.

I hope next time Buentello fights, he at least gets matched up against someone who wants to stand and bang....wherever he ends up.

[Dsm634]

Originally Posted by beau420

Either allow knees to the face everywhere or officiate using the rules, don't skew the rules for the benefit of the crowd or punish a fighter for using the rules to his benefit.

Yes.
My suggestion would be ban them and replace with stomps/soccer kicks! (never going to happen though)

I can see why Herb wanted the fight to continue though, especially after the very dismal ending of the prior fight (Sakara/Irvin).
Obviously fighter health is more important than a good show, but keeping the fans happy is also important. Paul wasn't ruined from the first knee, and wanted to continue the fight. He's no pussy. Unfortunately that's not enough to win battle though.
Two shitty stoppages in a row would have been bad news.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by Fedorlei Gomipierre

That there, was one UGLY fight.

Sadly, Buentello's all but done as a big leaguer and while I love him, his style isn't refined enough for this level of competition. But with that being said, neither is Kongo's IMO. Considering the shitty takedown defense of Buentello, Kongo scored all those takedowns, only to immediately let Paul back up and Kongo, for all of his ferocity, was SCARED to death to stand and every shot that ALMOST landed, he was just about "lights out". His standup looks to have actually DE-volved and I think anybody else within the HW conversation KILLS Kongo right now. He needs to really tighten up his shit, or I think they're gonna turf him.

I've always REALLY disliked Herb as a ref because alot of the time, I feel he turns a complete blind eye to ALOT of malfeasances. The Kimbo/Roy bout was brutal and he's fucked Joe Riggs over a couple of times.

Right now in the UFC, for me, it's Mario or bust.

Herb made some tough judgements calls in this fight, while maybe the wrong thing to do, I do not believe it was malicious, & I don't think I would have done much better, so I can't really complain. Also, Herb Dean fought Joe Riggs in January of 2003, and has not reffed a Joe Riggs fight since then, as the potential for controversy exists. (Joe submitted Herb in 55 seconds)

I think when these things happen we have to look at them as opportunities to improve, or clarify the rulebook, instead of attacking the individual ref.

[TapOut27]

Originally Posted by Dsm634

Kongo seems to have more fouls than most fighters, but they don't seem THAT intentional.
Maybe he should be forced to take a written test of UFC rules, kinda like the dmv. IDK maybe he is just dirty and plays dumb.
He should be penalized in the future with little warning, bc he has violated the rules more than a few times.

He has gone on record saying the he purposely kneed CroCop in the balls, and he hit him a solid 3 times in the fight if I remember correctly.

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by beau420

I agree with all the infractions listed.

I kinda like the idea someone pointed out to just allow grabbing the fence, but I foresee it causing new problems.

For the playing the game comment Herb made. A rule is a rule, letter of the law. Herb should have told Kongo to obey the rules. W have seen in multiple fights where a fighter is getting kneed in the chest and head, in a front choke, the fighter tries to go to 1 knee or drop a hand. The reason the rule is there is to protect a fighter from a knee to the head while on the ground (because you can get a lot more velocity on a knee the closer it is to your opponents head) If a fighter is completely hunched over like Buentello is, a knee to the face is devastating (which is what the rule is trying to prevent) Either allow knees to the face everywhere or officiate using the rules, don't skew the rules for the benefit of the crowd or punish a fighter for using the rules to his benefit.

Nearly every fighter who has been in trouble and turtled on the ground has been punched in the back of the head because they turn their face away from their opponent. How many times have you see someone fully mounted on someone's back and try and punch the opponent only to have the opponent turn the back of his head for every punch...and how often do we see the guy on the bottom get verbally warned for not taking the punch in the face, but instead turning to take it in the back of the head.

Fighters use the rules to their benefit.

I hope next time Buentello fights, he at least gets matched up against someone who wants to stand and bang....wherever he ends up.

I agree, Paul may have being playing the game as Herb put it, but rules are rules and Herb can't just ignore them when it suits, but the fight should have been stopped at the finger injury anyway just the same as the stopage due to Irvins eye in the first fight.

[Dsm634]

Originally Posted by TapOut27

He has gone on record saying the he purposely kneed CroCop in the balls, and he hit him a solid 3 times in the fight if I remember correctly.

Really? How the hell hasn't he been DQ'd yet? Shady business

[Ramma]

Kongo cheats and is a dirty fighter. No surprise here. He does something every fight. I think he should get a DQ sooner than later. Might help him clean up his very dirty act.

Round 2, 1:43: Buentello gets accused of “playing the game”

For the second time in one round, Buentello is hit by what are, technically speaking, illegal knees to the head. While in a front headlock, he puts one hand down on the mat, making him a downed opponent as far as the rulebook is concerned. He then eats at least three knees to the head. That’s when Dean stops the fight, but not to punish Kongo. Instead he tells Buentello that it’s his fault for “playing the game.”

By this he presumably means using the rules to his advantage. Granted, putting a couple fingers on the mat in no way makes knees to the head more dangerous and that rule should probably be abolished, but at the moment it’s still on the books. Dean has decided to ignore the rules in this case, opting instead to restart the fight after telling Buentello that he deserved it.

This one, I disagree with. Buentello, intentionally putting his hand down at the last second was "playing the game". He saw Kongo was going to knee him and threw his hand down. It wasn't like Buentello was in that position. He forced a foul.

That is like throwing yourself in front of a bus and then wanting to sue.