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[JustinVoorhees]

Originally Posted by YukonJordan

Two words: Yellow cards.

You start fining guys 10% of their purse for not trying to finish or stalemating and the whole game changes.

taking away part of the fighters purse seems to harsh to me...but a point deduction could work. I just don't like the idea of someone losing money.

[Mizzou]

Originally Posted by joeodd2

I wonder if Joe Rogan ever really sat down for a few hours to watch Amateur Wrestling?

Does anyone on the boards sit down to watch it? Actually I had watched a few Olympic Wrestling matches, not very exciting, but strangely enough they had more action than many LNP MMA fights....weird...

Good points, though, I do find Amateur Wrestling matches to be pretty exciting, I really enjoy watching them in person, especially the championships.

[Uvall]

Yeah and what people should also realise about Rogan is, he has also said on many an ocassion that the fight should be stood back up. I have always found it funny when he says this, as I too have heard him in the past talk about how much he is against that sort of thing. Hypocrit? I can't say anything other than it should depend on the fight. If the guys are active on the gorund, let it be. If they aren't then maybe have some rule lke Joeodd2 mentioned above. I'm like amny of you and really dig a good stand up brawl, but on the other hand I really like a good active ground fight just as much or more. And I'm no wrestler... I just like the technical aspect of the fight game, be it JJ, Wrestling, or anything else.

[Daellusx]

It's not the discipline that is boring, it's the fighters implementation that makes it boring.

Tito Ortiz, Chael Sonnen, Coleman (in his prime), Mark Kerr (in his prime), are and were basically just really good wrestlers. BUT they were exciting because they used their wrestling to try and beat the snot out of the other guy.

Fitch, Maynard, Shields, etc are all really good wrestlers/grapplers but they are unwilling to take risks and instead are content to work for positions and points instead of working to finish the fight.

It's kind of the comparisoin between Pacquiao and Mayweather. Pacquiao is willing to get in there and try to beat the other guy where Mayweather looks to win on points and plays it safe. This has led to some people calling Mayweather a boring fighter and Pacquiao an exciting fighter but they are phenomenal boxers.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by 23Xtreme

The thing with wrestling is that, in that discipline, it's about winning on points and controlling, getting dominant positions etc. There is no strikes allowed in amateur wrestling and also their are no subs allowed...So basically, there is no finishing in that discipline...

With boxing/Muay Thai/any other stand up, and JJ, it's about finishing your opponent...

In a pure sense, that's the case, but I don't think that purist perspective still applies to MMA. I think we're seeing more and more fighters who are perfectly content to win standing based on points. Before the string of KO's that lead to him winning the title [and consequently getting KO'd himself] Machida was criticized for this, Bisping still is, Frankie Edgar would be if he was facing anyone but Penn or an LnP wrestler, etc.

I think the difference is that most clueless fans can [kind of]follow/understand striking, so the predominant feeling that "stick and move" is still a more respectable fight plan than "lay and pray," regardless of the fact that it's essentially the exact same philosophy applied to two different disciplines.

Originally Posted by YukonJordan

Two words: Yellow cards.

You start fining guys 10% of their purse for not trying to finish or stalemating and the whole game changes.

Yes and no. I've been calling for yellowcards for years...but you've still got guys like Bisping who has finished something like one fight in 4 years and was never even close on the others ones. You've got guys like Guida and Sherk who will do the same thing on the ground: stay active, peck away at scoring points, and gradually they build up to a string of W's.

Originally Posted by JustinVoorhees

taking away part of the fighters purse seems to harsh to me...but a point deduction could work. I just don't like the idea of someone losing money.

I've alway been a fan of it, since the first time I saw it in PRIDE--and remember, this was when fighters weren't necessarily always full-time fighters and/or athletes, so you saw a lot of sloth fights in the UFC and PRIDE.

But I think I'd tweak it. If you had officials you could trust to make the right decision--and I'm well aware that we don't--I'd allow them to make a determination: If one fighter is pressing the action and one is running [Quarry/Starnes] the purse deduction should go to their opponent. If both guys get yellow cards or the other guy isn't pressing it either, it should get added to the FOTN bonus.

Originally Posted by Daellusx

It's not the discipline that is boring, it's the fighters implementation that makes it boring.

It's kind of the comparisoin between Pacquiao and Mayweather. Pacquiao is willing to get in there and try to beat the other guy where Mayweather looks to win on points and plays it safe. This has led to some people calling Mayweather a boring fighter and Pacquiao an exciting fighter but they are phenomenal boxers.

Exactly. But I do think we're seeing more and more of that in the standup game in MMA. I used to have to defend Machida all the time, but I think there are more fighters than ever who are emulating him [if not in Karate, in the stick-and-move] and they're still considered less boring than ground fighters.

rh

[joeodd2]

The stick and move comparison is valid, but it's probably easier to counter than LNP. You can improve footwork, use angles to cut off SNM fighters, faints, take downs, and especially use leg kicks or any kick really. LNP fighters focus on neutralizing hips and holding you down. they look to take huge chunks off the clock and stay safe. Same principle as SNM fighters, but can be much more difficult to counter, but not impossible. Just ask the Nog. Brothers.

[IceCold48]

Originally Posted by joeodd2

Did anyone catch the LNP diatribe from Cole Miller and notice how that seemed to annoy Joe Rogan, who then during another match commented on how the fighter on the bottom had such an "active guard" and didn't just lay there? Seemed like Joe's comments were kind of a dig at Cole for criticizing Wrestlers and Ju Jitsu guys who didn't try to finish fights. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems that Dan Hardy may have re-heated a great debate among MMA fighters. It's hard to argue with either point of view really...it's up to the guy on the bottom to not allow the guy on top to LNP, at the same time the guy on the top should feel some pressure to actually fight and try to work toward a finish. If both guys "stalemate" each other, then maybe after 2 minutes the ref should be able to determine if quicker stand ups are necessary. I'm all for fighters doing both things personally, trying to finish and moving their hips trying to make something happen from the bottom. I just found that to be kind of interesting last night....

what cole miller said wasnt bad he said it about every style. he strikes that just throw jabs in there to squeeze out a decision are shitheads too(in the pre fight i dont remember about the post fight).

i think joe might have been saying that more to inform people who probably misinterpreted what cole said and show about having an active guard.

the overall premise of these criticisms are actually good points. sitting on someone doing next to nothing is bullshit.

but the people who think that everytime a fight is on the ground it is boring and shouldnt be allowed are fucking dumbasses. its mixed martial arts meaning you use different tactics from a mixed array of martial arts to win the fight.

people are making retarded generalizations because of a couple of dicks like jon fitch, nick lentz and antonio mckee. the big problem i have with those guys are they arent even as good wrestlers as koscheck, hendricks, askren, davis, etc but they manage to destroy the image of wrestling with their shit which the know wouldnt fly in a wrestling match as theyd get banged with stalling calls left and right.

[IceCold48]

Originally Posted by joeodd2

I wonder if Joe Rogan ever really sat down for a few hours to watch Amateur Wrestling?

Does anyone on the boards sit down to watch it? Actually I had watched a few Olympic Wrestling matches, not very exciting, but strangely enough they had more action than many LNP MMA fights....weird...

i watch it all the time its the reason why i got into watching mma. its awesome i love it the ncaa tournament is like march madness i watch the whole thing online and on espnu. ive been to a shit load of matches and watch all season long on the big ten network.

my point? amatuer wrestling is 1000000x more exciting than these lay n pray bitches and whoever said the whole point of wrestling is to control the person is a fucking dumbass who obviously is no intelect to the sport at all. the point is to PIN your opponent. theyll tell you that the first day of pee wee wrestling camp.

[Sakara=Excitement]

Yeah Im not quite sure why the title says lay-n-pray when Cole Miller calls out EVERYONE in that interview, not just wrestlers.

-RJ

[fuzzrocks5285]

i understand the ground is part of the game, just make it exciting. it was amazing how watching fitch/alves II ppl were bored to tears, saying how "gay it is" & the booing. 30 minutes later ppl were talking about sonnen/silva like it was a knockdown dragout brawl. the reason? the kind of action on the ground. fitch literally just laid on top & did zilch. sonnen did the same thing except punched & struck his ass off on the ground