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[McTee]

Yeah, it sucks that some guys just use their wrestling to out-point the other fighter, but it's no secret that it is a strategy so these guys need to do something to not allow themselves to be out-pointed that way.

As for the philosophy of MMA, I'll say something that you all already know, and that is that wrestling is great when it is used to set up other things like striking, ground-n-pound and submissions. As much as I disliked Matt Hughes when he was champ, I see now that he was great at using his wrestling to set up submissions and dominant positions like his win over BJ Penn in the second fight, and I respect him that much more for it now that we see a guy like Fitch that either doesn't, or can't, use his dominant ground game to his advantage in any other way besides draining the clock and preventing his opponent from doing anything.

[goodtimes]

I think the only way to solve the "boring fighter" problem is to not let guys fight in a boring way. While Guida has tons of critics for his inability to finish fights, he still has tons of fans who enjoy his fast pace. One thing I think is kind of strange is the legion of fans that Sonnen now has who consider him an exciting fighter. I don't mind his style personally, but he doesn't finish anyone, and right up to the second he fought Marquardt I didn't see anyone appreciate his style, which hasn't changed since his first few fights. When he was taking guys down and chipping away at them with his short yet plentiful shots, no one appreciated his style.

Anyways, I think the only way to solve the problem of lay n pray is to penalize fighters for passivity. While Joe Rogan says that guys can counter it with an active guard, at the same time a guy with good top control knows how to capitalize on guys trying to move on the bottom by passing. Really, the easiest way to pass a guys guard is to let them go for armbars or triangles and spin out of them.

People also talk about stick and move on the feet, but one of the big difference's is the guy sticking and moving is still doing damage. Eating a few dozen jabs doesn't feel good at all. It might not knock a guy out, but you still get the visceral effect of their head snapping back and blood dripping down their faces. Guys who just get taken down and controlled, they usually aren't even tired at the end of the fight. Its about as uninteresting as a fight can get, and thats where the backlash comes from.

[beau420]

What about not announcing who is going to be on the TV fights or prelim fights, and just have the exciting and entertaining fights televised? Give fighters an extra couple G's if they make the TV broadcast. I guess it would ruin UFC's promos, but it would also light a fire under some fighters asses to do all they can, even if it means losing.

Maybe just have 2 guaranteed fights and the rest up for grabs...and actually hype all the other fights. Don't have these guys who have been in 2 UFC events and guys who order all the PPVs don't even know who they are. Like Charlie Brenneman, he has been in 2 UFC PPVs but never gets on TV...never gets UFC promos done for him. Can't think of any other examples, but I know there are others....Forrest Petz...there are more.

You could go 2-2 in the UFC and never get on a PPV. And if you don't get on TV you don't get the same sponsorship money.

[IceCold48]

Originally Posted by beau420

What about not announcing who is going to be on the TV fights or prelim fights, and just have the exciting and entertaining fights televised? Give fighters an extra couple G's if they make the TV broadcast. I guess it would ruin UFC's promos, but it would also light a fire under some fighters asses to do all they can, even if it means losing.

Maybe just have 2 guaranteed fights and the rest up for grabs...and actually hype all the other fights. Don't have these guys who have been in 2 UFC events and guys who order all the PPVs don't even know who they are. Like Charlie Brenneman, he has been in 2 UFC PPVs but never gets on TV...never gets UFC promos done for him. Can't think of any other examples, but I know there are others....Forrest Petz...there are more.

You could go 2-2 in the UFC and never get on a PPV. And if you don't get on TV you don't get the same sponsorship money.

charlie brenneman isnt all that good though he wouldnt be able to beat any of the top guys hendricks on the other hand should be on main cards. he knocked out a TUF winner in his first fight in less then 30 seconds but somehow goes to the prelims for like 4 fights in a row.


they should just have like 3 main card fights and but the best prelim fights in the garunteed filler time

[beau420]

Originally Posted by IceCold48

charlie brenneman isnt all that good though he wouldnt be able to beat any of the top guys hendricks on the other hand should be on main cards. he knocked out a TUF winner in his first fight in less then 30 seconds but somehow goes to the prelims for like 4 fights in a row.


they should just have like 3 main card fights and but the best prelim fights in the garunteed filler time

Sounds good. I just used him as an example....cause he fought most recently.

Jeremy Stephens didn't get on TV till his 4th fight...and even then, he made his TV debut on a TUF finale.

Spencer Fisher's first 4 UFC fights weren't televised. And he fought Thiago Alves, Aaron Riley, Sam Stout and Matt Wiman. Unless you actually follow the fight notes or now at least you can watch the fights from the UFC Vault.

But some of the masses will never get to watch those fights. Even people who shell out the $50-$60 for each PPV.

[Chute_Boxe44]

Originally Posted by YukonJordan

Two words: Yellow cards.

You start fining guys 10% of their purse for not trying to finish or stalemating and the whole game changes.

This. The yellow card system will completly solve this issue in my opinion. Any wrestler who would whine about it shouldn't have to complain because he should be active on the ground in order to keep it there.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by McTee

As for the philosophy of MMA, I'll say something that you all already know, and that is that wrestling is great when it is used to set up other things like striking, ground-n-pound and submissions. As much as I disliked Matt Hughes when he was champ, I see now that he was great at using his wrestling to set up submissions and dominant positions like his win over BJ Penn in the second fight, and I respect him that much more for it now that we see a guy like Fitch that either doesn't, or can't, use his dominant ground game to his advantage in any other way besides draining the clock and preventing his opponent from doing anything.

In defense of Fitch--and feel free to call me a Fitch nuthugger too--he's in a different place than just about any other fighter in the UFC. For years, he was clearly the second-best WW the org had [now arguable with the addition of Shields], and he was overlooked for title shots simply because he wasn't "interesting" to casual fans. Add to that issue that he was actually fired for not sucking up when dana fucked up with the video game licensing, and Lorenzo had to step in and fix things. He's been walking on eggshells for the last 4 years, he literally doesn't have the leeway to make a single mistake in any of his fights, or he loses any momentum he worked hard--for years to get.

To put it another way, there are tons of casual fans who don't think Fitch should ever get a rematch, simply because they don't find him "interesting" to watch.

Those same fans--or at least most of them--are entirely fine when you get Hardy--a guy who isn't even solidly ranked in the top 10--to get a title shot. Well, here's a newsflash: Fitch has beaten better fighters since losing to GSP than Hardy has beaten in his whole career. This is an assumption, but I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb saying it, but I'm pretty confident that if Hardy beat any two of the guys Fitch has beaten in that last two years, fanboys would be clamoring for Dan to rematch Georges.

And that's going to seem entirely justified to casual fans. Dan is--theoretically--a more "exciting" fighter than Jon, even if he doesn't finish fights and "wins" a lot of split decisions.

But the fact of the matter is that Jon is working within the limits set by MMA, and he's under tremendous pressure. If he was willing to take more risks and he makes even one misstep, he's completely and entirely out of title contention. If he makes two missteps, I'd go so far as to say he's out of the org, despite boasting what would be something like a 14 and 3 record with the org. I could easily see dana convincing Lorenzo that Fitch isn't marketable, doesn't sell PPV's, is a pain in the ass to work with, and that he fucks up the progression of lesser-quality but simultaneously more exciting fighters to get title shots.

With the recent indication from Georges that if he goes up to MW, he's not returning, I immediately imagined horror on dana's face, because the reality of either Shields or Fitch as the WW champion--and for a long, long, long time--would have a huge and immediate affect on buy-rates and he might not be able to buy that 7th Ferrari he's hoping will finally compensate for his lack of confidence and/or personality.

So yes, Fitch doesn't posture up, and go for submissions. Not taking a damn thing away from Matt Hughes, but it's a very different world from when he was champion. With the sport getting more attention, the expectation is the industry demands more money, with the expectation of money, there is more pressure, and with more pressure, there is less incentive to take risks when you have a tried and true method of winning nearly every fight.

rh

[Chute_Boxe44]

Originally Posted by rivethead

In defense of Fitch--and feel free to call me a Fitch nuthugger too--he's in a different place than just about any other fighter in the UFC. For years, he was clearly the second-best WW the org had [now arguable with the addition of Shields], and he was overlooked for title shots simply because he wasn't interesting to casual fans. Add to that issue that he was actually fired for not sucking up when dana fucked up with the video game licensing, and Lorenzo had to step in and fix things. He's been walking on eggshells for the last 4 years, he literally doesn't have the leeway to make a single mistake in any of his fights, or he loses any momentum he worked hard--for years to get.

To put it another way, there are tons of casual fans who don't think Fitch should ever get a rematch, simply because they don't find him interesting to watch.

Those same fans--or at least most of them--are entirely fine when you get Hardy--a guy who isn't even solidly ranked in the top 10--to get a title shot. Well, here's a newsflash: Fitch has beaten better fighters since losing to GSP than Hardy has beaten in his whole career. This is an assumption, but I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb saying it, but I'm pretty confident that if Hardy beat any two of the guys Fitch has beaten in that last two years, fanboys would be clamoring for Dan to rematch Georges.

And that's going to seem entirely justified to casual fans. Dan is--theoretically--a more "exciting" fighter than Jon, even if he doesn't finish fights and "wins" a lot of split decisions.

But the fact of the matter is that Jon is working within the limits set by MMA, and he's under tremendous pressure. If he was willing to take more risks and he makes even one misstep, he's completely and entirely out of title contention. If he makes two missteps, I'd go so far as to say he's out of the org, despite boasting what would be something like a 14 and 3 record with the org. I could easily see dana convincing Lorenzo that Fitch isn't marketable, doesn't sell PPV's, is a pain in the ass to work with, and that he fucks up the progression of lesser-quality but simultaneously more exciting fighters to get title shots.

With the recent indication from Georges that if he goes up to MW, he's not returning, I immediately imagined horror on dana's face, because the reality of either Shields or Fitch as the WW champion--and for a long, long, long time would have a huge and immediate affect on buy-rates and he might not be able to buy that 7th Ferrari he's hoping will finally compensate for his lack of confidence and/or personality.

So yes, Fitch doesn't posture up, and go for submissions. Not taking a damn thing away from Matt Hughes, but it's a very different world from when he was champion. With the sport getting more attention, the expectation is the industry demands more money, with the expectation of money, there is more pressure, and with more pressure, there is less incentive to take risks when you have a tried and true method of winning nearly every fight.

rh

Wow I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with this 100% hahaha

Thats as broken down as the situation can get in my opinion. It is also the basic reality as to why fighters like Fitch, Maynard, Shields, Mckee not only exist but are so damn successful in their safe approach.

[rivethead]

I also think it's funny that the concept of not putting themselves at risk is more vilified by wrestlers than it is for strikers who stick and move. I mean, Bisping takes a lot of shit for it, but his arrogance and clumsy PR account for a lot of that. But there are a lot of stick-and-move fighters who are still admired and appreciated, whereas I can't think of any LnP guys who are universally lauded.

Wierd double standards.

rh

[beau420]

Originally Posted by rivethead

In defense of Fitch--and feel free to call me a Fitch nuthugger too--he's in a different place than just about any other fighter in the UFC. For years, he was clearly the second-best WW the org had [now arguable with the addition of Shields], and he was overlooked for title shots simply because he wasn't interesting to casual fans. Add to that issue that he was actually fired for not sucking up when dana fucked up with the video game licensing, and Lorenzo had to step in and fix things. He's been walking on eggshells for the last 4 years, he literally doesn't have the leeway to make a single mistake in any of his fights, or he loses any momentum he worked hard--for years to get.

To put it another way, there are tons of casual fans who don't think Fitch should ever get a rematch, simply because they don't find him interesting to watch.

Those same fans--or at least most of them--are entirely fine when you get Hardy--a guy who isn't even solidly ranked in the top 10--to get a title shot. Well, here's a newsflash: Fitch has beaten better fighters since losing to GSP than Hardy has beaten in his whole career. This is an assumption, but I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb saying it, but I'm pretty confident that if Hardy beat any two of the guys Fitch has beaten in that last two years, fanboys would be clamoring for Dan to rematch Georges.

And that's going to seem entirely justified to casual fans. Dan is--theoretically--a more "exciting" fighter than Jon, even if he doesn't finish fights and "wins" a lot of split decisions.

But the fact of the matter is that Jon is working within the limits set by MMA, and he's under tremendous pressure. If he was willing to take more risks and he makes even one misstep, he's completely and entirely out of title contention. If he makes two missteps, I'd go so far as to say he's out of the org, despite boasting what would be something like a 14 and 3 record with the org. I could easily see dana convincing Lorenzo that Fitch isn't marketable, doesn't sell PPV's, is a pain in the ass to work with, and that he fucks up the progression of lesser-quality but simultaneously more exciting fighters to get title shots.

With the recent indication from Georges that if he goes up to MW, he's not returning, I immediately imagined horror on dana's face, because the reality of either Shields or Fitch as the WW champion--and for a long, long, long time would have a huge and immediate affect on buy-rates and he might not be able to buy that 7th Ferrari he's hoping will finally compensate for his lack of confidence and/or personality.

So yes, Fitch doesn't posture up, and go for submissions. Not taking a damn thing away from Matt Hughes, but it's a very different world from when he was champion. With the sport getting more attention, the expectation is the industry demands more money, with the expectation of money, there is more pressure, and with more pressure, there is less incentive to take risks when you have a tried and true method of winning nearly every fight.

rh

You gotta admire Fitch's skills. Same as Antonio McKee. But after the outcry from the MMA community and just about every reporter that has interviewed McKee in the past year, and even the MFC owner told McKee that he wouldn't get to fight unless he tried to impress the crowd and change his style.

I have no problem with fighters who fight safe fights. But I also have no problem with promoters wanting to fill the seats in an arena and sell PPVs. It is definitely more important for smaller organizations who have problems getting fans already and have problems selling out their events.

But this is where I feel the UFC needs to bite the bullet. Even the worst selling PPV shows for the UFC make them money. They signed him, they make the matchups. It's up to the UFC to put Fitch up against better opponents, that better nullify his style.

Get Fitch to fight Hughes or Lytle or Rick Story or Hathaway or Shields or Mike Pierce (and give Pierce a full training camp...not a replacement fighter) force him to fight Koschek. Don't feed Fitch any more Brazilians or strikers. If all he wants to do is wrestle and stay in full guard or half guard and throw half elbows and pepper with no intent to finish a fight, then why schedule him to fight Ben Saunders.

When the UFC announced Ben Saunders vs Fitch I was scratching my head. Why, why, why. Even if Saunders improved his wrestling, there was no way he would improve his wrestling enough to compete with Fitch.

They want wrestlers to improve their overall game, strictly put them up against other wrestlers until they see their other skills improve.

What might help Fitch change up his game, and gameplan might be to face GSP again. Or at least face a grappler who he won't outgrapple. Then he might actually want to stand and trade or might want to improve his kicks (which I think every wrestler should do)

The UFC is also to blame for Fitch's un-fan friendly fights. Yet they seem to have no problems pointing the finger at Fitch and making him the scapegoat....well not the UFC....Dana....Dana and a lot of MMA reporters.