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[Leucoethiops]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Either fighter has tools to end it, and it won't be surprising, either way.

This.

[Sakara=Excitement]

If Brock can get this fight to the ground, he has really good ground control and stays really close to his opponents and has a great base. I think Cain's wrestling will help him from getting takendown but if the fight goes there, Brock could lay on some serious GnP. Also Brock's BJJ coaches keep giving glowing accounts of what he's picking up and how fast and we saw what NO ONE thought they would see in the Carwin fight so I honestly believe Brock has the advantage if the fight goes to the ground. Standing up, I see Cain having the advantage but I don't think Brock will allow himself to make the same mistakes he did in the Carwin fight. Plus from what everyone says, Carwin hits way harder than Cain and if Carwin couldn't KO Brock I don't see Cain being able to do it either. Like Rivet said, Brock has been in this spot before, headlining and PPV with the title on the line, Cain hasn't. I see this fight playing out with a lot of grappling against the cage with Brock eventually landing a takedown and pounding out Cain either late in the 3rd or the 4th.

[Malice]

More pics for size difference...

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by DayneFS

I personally think we are all in for a surprise in this fight. Brock always tries to pull something new out of his sleeve. As much as we break it down, we can only go by our previous knowledge, and when we are dealing with 2, not just 1, fighter who is constantly evolving, there's no telling what's going to happen! Especially for the HW championship. God dammit, Saturday needs to hurry up and get here.

OK, I'll bite. What, exactly, did he pull out of his sleeve in the Carwin fight?

• Not being a better wrestler even though he was DI NCAA champ and Carwin was "only" DIII?
• Not being the better striker, or showing any improvement with striking defense?
• An aversion to getting hit and turtling up?[again]

probably not. It must be

• waiting for your inexperienced opponent to punch himself out so you can improperly apply a rudimentary choke

Excellent game plan...that's a sure fire winner, every time.

Originally Posted by Malice

Cain is not a big heavyweight by any means:

he has beaten bigger guys, but this time he has to beat a bigger guy that is also a great wrestler..

brock is hardly a GREAT wrestler. He's a good wrestler. His size advantage gives him potential to be great.

and if you're talking purely beating a big, great wrestler, you need to check Cain's NCAA record, ref Cole Konrad in 2005.

Originally Posted by Malice

It is just amazing how big Brock is...

Hmm...that's a photo of lesnar getting outgrappled by a guy 12 years older than he is and 50lbs lighter...after Couture took 16 months off to shoot a movie.

I guess I retract my earlier statement, because that clearly proves that lesnar is indeed a great wrestler.



Waitaminute...not it doesn't. Not at all, when you think about it...

Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement

...Also Brock's BJJ coaches keep giving glowing accounts of what he's picking up and how fast and we saw what NO ONE thought they would see in the Carwin fight so I honestly believe Brock has the advantage if the fight goes to the ground...

...for the record, I'm thinking that lesnar's BJJ coach is absolutely full of the poo.

He didn't have the advantage on the ground against Carwin, until Carwin was absolutely gassed and fell into an improperly applied choke. Which is another illustration of lesnar using size/power to overcome holes in his technical game.

I'm not saying Cain will win, I'm just looking for some accuracy to cut through the overhype and smoke and mirrors.

rh

[Malice]

Randy is a better wrestler ...just smaller..hence my point RH

Originally Posted by rivethead

and if you're talking purely beating a big, great wrestler, you need to check Cain's NCAA record, ref Cole Konrad in 2005.

rh

On my records...

Cain Wrestled Cole Konrad 7 times and only won once...

Brock Lesnar on His Training Partner Cole Konrad

"What Cole brings to the fight, he's obviously an up-and-coming heavyweight star in mixed martial arts. Not only is he a NCAA heavyweight champion, I believe he's wrestled Cain Velasquez seven times."

Originally Posted by TBEAR

Wrestling
Both guys are GREAT wrestlers. Both are D1 Champs etc. IMO, I don't think either one will have an advantage in pure wrestling. If there is an advantage it is Brocks size.

Advantage Brock due to his size

BTW Cain was never a D1 Champ:

• Placed 5th place in the 2005 NCAA Division I Collegiate Championship at Heavyweight while in Arizona State University
• Placed 4th place in the 2006 NCAA Division I Collegiate Championship at Heavyweight while in Arizona State University

He was a Junior College Champ...

http://www.wrestlinghalloffame.org/w...wrestler=12087

2005 Div I 285:

	1	Steve Mocco	Oklahoma State University
	2	Cole Konrad	University of Minnesota
	3	Pat DeGain	Indiana University
	4	Greg Wagner	University of Michigan
	5	Cain Velasquez	Arizona State University

2006 Div I 285:

	1	Cole Konrad	University of Minnesota
	2	Steve Mocco	Oklahoma State University
	3	Greg Wagner	University of Michigan
	4	Cain Velasquez	Arizona State University

[Sakara=Excitement]

Originally Posted by rivethead

OK, I'll bite. What, exactly, did he pull out of his sleeve in the Carwin fight?

• Not being a better wrestler even though he was DI NCAA champ and Carwin was "only" DIII?
• Not being the better striker, or showing any improvement with striking defense?
• An aversion to getting hit and turtling up?[again]

probably not. It must be

• I don't think Brock ever had the chance to show who the better wrestler is in that fight. As you know, MMA wrestling and Amateur wrestling are two completely different animals. In the Carwin fight, Brock was rocked and hurt attempting a takedown which I don't think is indicative of his grappling. That debate (Carwin vs Brock better wrestler) is better served with them on a floor mat in a gym somewhere. In that fight, Carwin stuffed a takedown and Brock got a takedown regardless. Because BOTH factors come in to play. Factor a.)Brock being rocked and not securing a takedown and Factor b.)Carwin gassing himself and being taken down.
  
• Again, Brock really never had much time to show better striking because almost out of the gate, Carwin was on top of him trying to take his head off. To Brock's credit, all the other guys whilted under the pressure, Brock didn't.
  
• It worked didn't it? What was he supposed to do? Expose his chin trying to scramble out of it and get put to sleep?

Originally Posted by rivethead

• waiting for your inexperienced opponent to punch himself out so you can improperly apply a rudimentary choke

Excellent game plan...that's a sure fire winner, every time.

How is Brock not as inexperienced or possibly more so than Carwin? Carwin had twice the amount of fights as Brock. That was Brock's 6th I think and Carwin's 12th if I'm not mistaken. And I didn't realize a arm triangle was such a beginner move for a fighter to do. So rudimentary Carwin couldn't stop it. Speaks more on Carwin than on Brock.

Originally Posted by rivethead

brock is hardly a GREAT wrestler. He's a good wrestler. His size advantage gives him potential to be great.

and if you're talking purely beating a big, great wrestler, you need to check Cain's NCAA record, ref Cole Konrad in 2005.

Are we talking MMA or wrestling? In MMA I would agree that Brock isn't the best wrestler around or even the best in the division but his record of 106-5 in the NCAA says otherwise. Everyone keeps harping on his size being the end all to the Brock debate. His size wins him everything, his wrestling bouts, his MMA fights but if it was based on size and not skill, wouldn't of Hong Man Choi KO'd Fedor? Bob Sapp should be the ruler of the world if it was just size. It's not like colleges saw Brocks size and lined up to recruit him. Brock was in a junior college his first two years before anyone took a chance on him.

Lesnar's accomplishments:
106-5 record
two-time NJCAA All-American
1998 NJCAA Heavyweight Champion
two-time NCAA All-American
two-time Big Ten Conference Champion
2000 NCAA heavyweight champion

Cain's accomplishments:
86-17 record
NJCAA National Championship
placed 5th in the country 2005
placed 4th in the country 2006


I would just like people to give Brock his credit when 3 years ago or so he was a joke for even thinking about MMA. Now he's "okay" and relies on his size to win fights. How about Brock is the inexperienced MMA fighter here and everyone he fights for awhile would of been fighting for longer than he has.

[Malice]

^^^ You are right Sakara, statistically Brock is the BETTER wrestler. Some say Cain wrestled tougher competition...but that is subjective.

Credit to Brock.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Malice

On my records...

Cain Wrestled Cole Konrad 7 times and only won once...

And the fact that he beat Konrad at all is a credit to his ability to overcome a size disadvantage...particularly when he didn't have all of the other aspects of MMA--areas where he's better than lesnar--to fall back on.

I'm not saying Cain would beat brock in an NCAA match. I'm saying Cain is the more skilled fighter. You brought up that lesnar is too big and too great of a wrestler for Cain to handle, and I'm calling that MMA math and positing that he's accomplished it in the past, under more difficult circumstances.

Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement

[LIST][*]I don't think Brock ever had the chance to show who the better wrestler is in that fight. As you know, MMA wrestling and Amateur wrestling are two completely different animals. In the Carwin fight, Brock was rocked and hurt attempting a takedown which I don't think is indicative of his grappling. That debate (Carwin vs Brock better wrestler) is better served with them on a floor mat in a gym somewhere. In that fight, Carwin stuffed a takedown and Brock got a takedown regardless. Because BOTH factors come in to play. Factor a.)Brock being rocked and not securing a takedown and Factor b.)Carwin gassing himself and being taken down.

...or, you could look at it as guys predicting that lesnar would "take Carwin down at will because he was a DI champ and Carwin was only DIII" got a rude awakening when lesnar failed in the first TD and allowed himself to get kneed in the face. Perhaps what I'm expecting is a fighter with "great" wrestling to set up his shots better, to not go for the same old double that he always does, and to time his shot better against a slower-moving, less-explosive fighter like Carwin. Someone who is "good" might get caught and eat a knee.

Again, Brock really never had much time to show better striking because almost out of the gate, Carwin was on top of him trying to take his head off. To Brock's credit, all the other guys whilted under the pressure, Brock didn't.

So by your logic, Herring is a better striker than lesnar, right? Because he never wilted under pressure?

The fact that Carwin completly outstruck lesnar is an illustration that he's a better striker.

How is Brock not as inexperienced or possibly more so than Carwin? Carwin had twice the amount of fights as Brock. That was Brock's 6th I think and Carwin's 12th if I'm not mistaken.

Carwin has more fights, but less actual time in the cage. Of his 12 fights, I think 6 of them didn't even hit the 90 second mark, and he'd never been out of the first round before. That figure is more important when you factor in that lesnar has been a main-eventer or a co-main eventor 5 times, and Carwin never. There is a tremendous difference in the pressure placed on a fighter and the adreneline rush/dump the fighter has to deal with as a result. Having a hugely important fight go longer than it had ever gone for him was a recipe for failure for Carwin. I said before the fight that if it went to the second round that the advantage ibecomes increasingly lesnar's as he'd gone the distance in the past.

And I didn't realize a arm triangle was such a beginner move for a fighter to do. So rudimentary Carwin couldn't stop it. Speaks more on Carwin than on Brock.

It's a rudimentary move when your opponent is so tired he can't move his arms or resist.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good win. A win is a win is a win. Mir's win over an inexperienced lesnar was a good win, even though brock beat the shit out of him, much the way Carwin beat the shit out of brock. But obviously there was a difference in the technique used in securing the submission, and how well technically executed it was. Once again, lesnar used strength to supplement holes in his technical game...if lesnar hadn't been as strong as he was, or if Carwin hadn't been so exhausted, it would have been defended by anyone with a better than average ground game.

Again, I'm not saying that lesnar isn't effective, or that he's not a threat. I'm simply pointing out that people who only refer to his skills, or to him improving leaps and bounds are seeing something I'm not. He's effective, but he's not nearly as skilled as he's being made out to be. He is a threat more because he's got size and strength to cover holes in his game.

I would just like people to give Brock his credit when 3 years ago or so he was a joke for even thinking about MMA. Now he's "okay" and relies on his size to win fights. How about Brock is the inexperienced MMA fighter here and everyone he fights for awhile would of been fighting for longer than he has.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me, but that's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying he's got solid skills, and he supplements them with size. That his skillset alone is good, not great.

Apparently that is so insulting to some people that they read it as though I'm saying he's only using size to win, when that's not the case at all.

I don't think he's a joke, I don't think he's a lock to lose this fight--although I do think Cain is more skilled in every aspect of MMA--because together, his size and his skillset make him a threat.

Originally Posted by Malice

^^^ You are right Sakara, statistically Brock is the BETTER wrestler. Some say Cain wrestled tougher competition...but that is subjective.

Credit to Brock.

Sure...statistically, he's the better wrestler. But that doesn't say anything about skills. Pound for Pound, Cain is literally light years ahead of lesnar.

But that doesn't mean Cain is going to win the fight.

rh

[MickeyKnox]

Originally Posted by rivethead

OK, I'll bite. What, exactly, did he pull out of his sleeve in the Carwin fight?

• Not being a better wrestler even though he was DI NCAA champ and Carwin was "only" DIII?
• Not being the better striker, or showing any improvement with striking defense?
• An aversion to getting hit and turtling up?[again]

probably not. It must be

• waiting for your inexperienced opponent to punch himself out so you can improperly apply a rudimentary choke

Excellent game plan...that's a sure fire winner, every time.

Well, simply that no one in their right mind expected Brock to take the win with a submission. It showed that even when he is in the deepest waters and seemingly about to fall short (especially from such a ferocious attack by Shane Carwin), that no one should give him a window of opportunity to survive or they might very well regret it. By the 2nd round, many would have thought they were about to see Brock get KO'd, but all it took was for him to get one takedown, advancement to the mount, and a secured choke, granted Carwin was nearly defenseless by this time, but still...

It says a lot about him, mental-wise. Instead of trying to prove a point by standing or even trying to ground and pound Carwin at all for the win, he went for the kill.

[SWIFTboy]

Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement

[*]Again, Brock really never had much time to show better striking because almost out of the gate, Carwin was on top of him trying to take his head off.

I think you should read this again and re-think your argument here. This is very weak. Unless I'm not understanding your point, which is possible.

I read it as you saying we can't judge Lesnar's striking, because he was outstuck so badly we didn't have time to tell. Correct me if I'm wrong.