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[noahm]

He can win again, but unless they pull a UFC and give him a title shot after one warmup, he will not every be champ again. He should almost be required to fight Carwin before getting another shot.

The real problem is that he has no clue what to do when he is not in control. He is a huge dude who probably never feared anyone. It is totally foreign to his mind to be dominated. Cain is in his head deep. JDS will have him worried about taking shots big time. Contrary to what someone said earlier, he was knocked silly. Maybe not completely out, but he couldn't even stand up at one point.

He will be afraid of getting hit by JDS and Carwin and it will throw off his game. Nelson may give him trouble. Honestly, I said it before, and still think Timmy could beat him if he came back. Too many rungs on the ladder back up.

[Otomosix]

Originally Posted by dan the man 67

Ummmmm, did you not see the 1st round of the Carwin fight???

Yeah. Strangely enough, it was the 1st and only UFC PPV I watched while at a bar (never again). And when all the Lesnar fanboys were hooting how he was gonna crush Carwin, it was me yelling "all fucking day" when Carwin put a beating on Lesnar during that 1st round while everyone else stared in disbelief as they watched their champ turn into gravy.

Of course, we all know how that ended but it certainly wasn't credit to Brock for winning that fight more than it was Carwin's for losing it.

Originally Posted by Adambomb

Anyone saying Junior would definitively beat Brock is full of crap. I respect Junior's abilities, but he's yet to face an elite wrestler and failed to put away a beaten down Roy Nelson who offered little in terms of a threat. Could he stuff a Brock takedown? I have no idea, and neither does anyone else. His TDD is unproven.

Brock needs to improve the following:
1. Gameplan - Bull rushing Cain was not smart. It tired him out and left him with no energy to defend himself after that initial onslought. Brock needed to take things slow, wearing Cain down by pressing him up against the cage and taking his time after he did secure a TD instead of immediately trying to pass. The guy needs to relax and rely on his abilities and skillset instead of adrenaline and agression.

2. Composure - When Brock gets stunned he falls apart and retreats. The man is a beast, why not press forward? Use that size and strength to grab ahold of the opponent and don't let go. Shoot or press him against the cage. Clinch. Lesnar needs to use what he does best when he's out of it instead of frantically backpedaling or doing his best turtle impression.

3. Striking - Can you imagine how scary this guy would be with good Muay Thai? Getting out of his clinch would be almost impossible, and even if you did his shot would still be there to compensate.

Brock seems to be a very stubborn guy, but his near death experience humbled him. If he admits he still has much to learn and applies himself as he has to everything else in his life, he will be champion again. He's a freak athlete with limitless potential.

First, you're right about the JDS TDD angle. I suspect JDS will be okay in this area but who really knows yet.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with some of you that Brock's mistake was to bullrush Cain. IMO, that was the best strategy he could use against a guy like Cain. Why? 3 reasons:

1) Brock's striking is not even average so the longer they stood, the more likely he would incur more damage or even possibly a TKO/KO from Cain.

2) Brock's wrestling is top-notch and he obviously had a weight advantage. Seeing your opponent on videotape and feeling it for the first time in the cage are two different things. I think by bullrushing, Brock would have the "shock and awe" effect against Cain to find a quick 1st round finish. I think the real mistake was his attempt to jump out of guard before securing Cain on the ground (which a few people already pointed out).

3) Brock's conditioning may be decent but he isn't used to the pace that Cain has proven. Therefore, the longer the fight draws out (even on the ground or in the clinch), the more it favors Cain.

[CHAEL fan]

Originally Posted by Otomosix

Yeah. Strangely enough, it was the 1st and only UFC PPV I watched while at a bar (never again). And when all the Lesnar fanboys were hooting how he was gonna crush Carwin, it was me yelling "all fucking day" when Carwin put a beating on Lesnar during that 1st round while everyone else stared in disbelief as they watched their champ turn into gravy.

Of course, we all know how that ended but it certainly wasn't credit to Brock for winning that fight more than it was Carwin's for losing it.

I did the ppv bar thing once....and once was enough. The majority of Carwin's punches didn't get through, it looked a lot worse than it really was...now, compare that to the Cain fight, and almost every shot was pin point.

[VimyRidge]

Originally Posted by dan the man 67

Ummmmm, did you not see the 1st round of the Carwin fight???

I agree that he did take a large amount of punishment and showed he can take a bunch of punchs, but the problem is that the first time he gets hit, he turtles and then makes himself vulnerable to a large amount of damage.

If he could take the first punch without dropping and turtling, he would not be getting hit with the subsequent 40 shots due to being in a vulnerable position.

As Goremire put it "seemingly uncontrollable reflex to cower", this is Brock problem, not the fact that he can't take punishment (although I might have said something contrary a couple of days ago "about taking punishment" right after the fight )

[ARSchwartz]

I think he'll regain it regardless, but he'll regain it a lot faster if he takes a trip down to New Mexico. He went after Cain thinking he could take any kind of beating because of the confidence the Carwin fight gave him, well now he knows otherwise. He's not an idiot, he will bounce back from this loss just like he did against the Mir loss. Getting some stand up and strategy tips from the guys who work with GSP as opposed to only the people he brings in will speed him along quickly.

Imaging Lesnar with the crisp striking blended with his wrestling prowess. Mix that with his natural size, strength, and speed, and who would stop him?

[Chute_Boxe44]

Originally Posted by VimyRidge

I agree that he did take a large amount of punishment and showed he can take a bunch of punchs, but the problem is that the first time he gets hit, he turtles and then makes himself vulnerable to a large amount of damage.

If he could take the first punch without dropping and turtling, he would not be getting hit with the subsequent 40 shots due to being in a vulnerable position.

As Goremire put it "seemingly uncontrollable reflex to cower", this is Brock problem, not the fact that he can't take punishment (although I might have said something contrary a couple of days ago "about taking punishment" right after the fight )

I think its called the "Bob Sapp syndrome"

[Otomosix]

Originally Posted by VimyRidge

I agree that he did take a large amount of punishment and showed he can take a bunch of punchs, but the problem is that the first time he gets hit, he turtles and then makes himself vulnerable to a large amount of damage.

If he could take the first punch without dropping and turtling, he would not be getting hit with the subsequent 40 shots due to being in a vulnerable position.

As Goremire put it "seemingly uncontrollable reflex to cower", this is Brock problem, not the fact that he can't take punishment (although I might have said something contrary a couple of days ago "about taking punishment" right after the fight )

Okay, I see what some of you are saying. By "can't take a punch", I meant he mentally crumbles like a schoolyard bully (not so much that he goes lights out at the first hint of contact on his chin).

But yeah, when he gets hit, he puts on the brakes and totally loses his composure (not to mention goes for the "bread and butter" but sloppy takedown attempt).

You just can't teach taking a hit. Or if you can, you'd have to lock a guy up in a room and throw canteloupes at his head all day until he smiles (but only because he can't feel his face anymore).

[Adambomb]

Originally Posted by Otomosix

First, you're right about the JDS TDD angle. I suspect JDS will be okay in this area but who really knows yet.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with some of you that Brock's mistake was to bullrush Cain. IMO, that was the best strategy he could use against a guy like Cain. Why? 3 reasons:

1) Brock's striking is not even average so the longer they stood, the more likely he would incur more damage or even possibly a TKO/KO from Cain.

2) Brock's wrestling is top-notch and he obviously had a weight advantage. Seeing your opponent on videotape and feeling it for the first time in the cage are two different things. I think by bullrushing, Brock would have the "shock and awe" effect against Cain to find a quick 1st round finish. I think the real mistake was his attempt to jump out of guard before securing Cain on the ground (which a few people already pointed out).

3) Brock's conditioning may be decent but he isn't used to the pace that Cain has proven. Therefore, the longer the fight draws out (even on the ground or in the clinch), the more it favors Cain.

Great points, but I think he made Cain more agressive by bull-rushing. Brock was fighting at Cain's pace, which played right into Cain's gameplan. Once Cain got up from that takedown Lesnar had nothing left.

I think if Brock could've kept the pace slower he could've won a round or three by letting Cain come to him and using his wrestling and size to secure a takedown or control him against the fence. Gradually Cain would get more agressive and leave openings for a more-rested Lesnar to capitalize on, but Brock doesn't appear to be a very patient fighter.

[MetalHead75]

I say he most definitely can as long as his head's in the right place coming off this loss. If he takes this loss like a man and learns from it to become a better fighter, with the proper training he will be a fucking beast down the road.

But on the other hand, his ego is so fucking huge that I'm not sure if he can handle NOT being the champion and getting that huge payday. He may just tuck his tail between his legs and make his way back to the WWE before me makes it to another title run. At least there, he'll make more money and the ass kickings are fake...

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by NLRepublic

As bad as Tito reacted to getting tapped up when he was champ, you can't compare how Brock's game actually fall's apart to what Tito did.

2 points first off, the first being the obvious that Tito did not hate getting hit the way Brock does. Watch Chuck/Tito fight 2, Chuck was beating the shit out of him and at the end of the round Tito was throwin refs out of the way and screaming in Chuck's face . Brock wasn't acting like that after Carwin beat his ass for 5 mins. Tito never liked getting hit when he was the champ, but Brock is on another level. The second point is that Tito did that at LHW, Brock can't take punishment like that by turtleing up on the ground and letting a bunch of HWs beat him down. He will continue to get TKO'd.

The other issue with me is the myth that Lesnar has the elite level wrestling he had in college and that he can just throw people around. He beat up a can, then came to the UFC and out wrestled Frank Mir and Heath Hearing. Pretty much anyone with any sort of wrestling background can do that in the HW division. Then he arguably gets outwrestled by Couture who was like 60 lbs. lighter than him on fight night. He couldn't get Carwin down until he punched himself out, and he got Cain down once and Cain bounced right back up.

As long as he trains with a bunch of Mini Brocks at a gym with Slayer spelled out in duct tape on the wall he's gonna be more of the same. If he decides to realize he's still in his young 30's and make 3 month trips to a training camp outside of Minnesota for his fights things could change

- Tito aboslutely hates getting punched in the face and ofcourse Brock is on another level given he hasn't even had 8 professional fights yet.

- Cain was taken down twice and Carwin was almost taken down before he got gassed which was entirely his fault for showing up out of shape.

- Brock needs to work on his striking defense and somehow integrate it with his wrestling. GSP is a perfect example.