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12-05-2010, 10:03 AM
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#1 (permalink)
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Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here Posts: 18,568
| Nam Phan vs Leonard Garcia recap and Fightmetric reports DISCUSSION
Leonard Garcia Is Four Times Blessed: King of Bad Decisions Does It Again Leonard Garcia Is Four Times Blessed: King of Bad Decisions Does It Again - Bloody Elbow Quote:
It's truly inexplicable. By all rights, Leonard Garcia should be 0-7 in his last seven bouts. Instead, amazingly, he's 3-3-1. Five of his last six fights have gone to a split decision, each one a neatly wrapped gift from ignorant judges, lovely presents for Garcia that had to make the routine ass kickings a little less painful. In one of the best fights of the year he got shellacked by the average Korean fighter Chan Sung Jung. Somehow he won a split decision. Tonight he was beat to the punch by Nam Phan, the Ultimate Fighter and K-1 veteran who had no problems with Garcia's wild and looping punches. Yet, once again, Garcia had his hand raised at the end. Even Garcia didn't believe he won the fight.
"I had it for Nam too. I got a couple of takedowns, but he beat me in the standup," Garcia told the booing crowd. "I'll come back to fight Nam again. That's all I can say. I'm sorry Joe. I'm sorry. I called it the same thing."
As the crowd chanted "Bullshit, bullshit" and announcer Joe Rogan very publicly criticized the decision, I journeyed to Wikipedia. Surely, I thought, Garcia must have some sweet blackmail material on Nevada's Keith Kizer. That would explain judges being in the Greg Jackson trained fighter's pocket. But that wasn't it. Garcia has won bad decisions in four states. So what is it about Garcia that grabs the judge's attention?
The answer is mediocrity. Garcia is just not a good fighter. He backs straight up when he should circle, throws every punch like it was his last, and always gasses out before 15 minutes are up. But there's nothing subtle about him. Everything he throws has the worst intentions, wild and winging hooks that are very dramatic. Even when they don't score cleanly, you can't help but notice. Garcia also smiles the fight away. Even when he's getting creamed, like he was against Phan in the second round, he gets creamed with a smile on his face.
The judges, as discussed ad nauseum, don't understand some of the techniques that make up a mixed martial arts fight. But everybody understands big punches - and that's something Garcia delivers in spades. One thing is certain: if you're fighting Garcia Dana White's words of wisdom have never been more true. Don't let the f*cking fight go to the f*cking judges. |
Nam Phan's Decision Loss Should Spark Call for Commission Accountability Nam Phan's Decision Loss Should Spark Call for Commission Accountability - Bloody Elbow Quote:
Joe Rogan said it best during The Ultimate Fighter 12 Finale tonight. Keith Kizer and the Nevada State Athletic Commission need to be held accountable for the incompetence displayed during the opening featherweight battle between Nam Phan and Leonard Garcia. After three rounds of Phan essentially battering Garcia with blows while Garcia swung wildly at air, judges Adalaide Byrd and Tony Weeks scored the bout two rounds to one in favor of Leonard Garcia. A stunned crowd at The Pearl at the Palms in Las Vegas, Nevada booed angrily, erupting in chants describing their discontent with the decision.
We've seen this type of judging time and time again, but it's been more prominent this year as we've had a number of close decisions that were deemed controversial by fans and media alike. While most of those decisions were debatable, Phan's loss tonight wasn't a debate. It was flat out robbery. We've been criticized for the overuse of the term in the past, but it applies justly in this case.
The decision could go down as the worst of this year, although it probably doesn't stack up against the Mike Easton vs. Chase Beebe debacle that our own Luke Thomas and Kid Nate were sitting cageside for back in 2009. In my mind, the central issue is beginning to move away from individual judging incompetence and the re-education of these dissenting officials, and moving toward a higher power. Instead of critiquing judges and hoping for a change in their patterns, let's throw that failing opinion out the window. As I stated in an article back in October, the old guard is finished in this sport. With the exception of a talented few who have interpreted the judging criteria correctly, the new breed of judges needs to be allowed to surface.
That problem can be solved if the Nevada State Athletic Commission and other commissions around the country accept accountability for the actions of their judges. When I spoke with Nick Lembo of the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board in September of 2009, we talked specifically about the judging process in New Jersey:
1. Aspiring judges must have an appropriate martial arts background, meaning they can't simply have a background in boxing or judging boxing.
2. Prospective judges work amateur shows as a "shadow". They normally sit next to other judges to get a feel for where they will sit, and in order to discuss the fights during breaks. The "shadow" will score the bout, and Lembo reviews those scores.
3. If Prospective judges are deemed fit to work a professional event, he/she would sit next to two experienced judges. This will not only please the promoter who would want at least two experienced judges working the event, but it'll give a much higher confidence to the scores.
4. Prospective judges must explain their "interesting" scores and have been forced to watch video to explain their scoring process out loud in the past. Lembo did state that there are judges who no longer work events in New Jersey or are working their way back into the mix following these review sessions.
More regarding the judging process and excerpts from Keith Kizer regarding the process in Nevada after the jump...
I reached Keith Kizer to find out what Nevada's policies were in regards to the judging process as well, specifically whether there was a process in place to review scorecards: This excerpt is from a piece in October of last year:
The NSAC, like the NJSACB, has its own "shadowing" program for applicants. New applicants "shadow" judge amateur bouts alongside professional judges in order to gain experience and knowledge about scoring a MMA bout. All the professional judges are easily accessible to answer questions from those applicants in order to gain a better understanding, and Keith Kizer himself scrutinizes the applicants' judging cards in order to assess their performances.
Kizer also stated that a review process is also in place, and that poor judging can result in some judges being dropped from judging professional events. One of the main differences between New Jersey and Nevada is the criteria for judges. New Jersey requires some sort of martial arts background while Kizer simply stated that "Judges can come from various walks of life, but need a "judging background" to do the pro events. Judging the amateurs and attending judges' training events is important.". As long as applicants prove that they are competent and get their experience through the process, those applicants can become professional judges
The problem of ignorant judging still seems to be an issue despite these programs being in place. While I can't say the state of New Jersey is a problem due to the limited amount of major events held there, Nevada is under heavy scrutiny from the media and fans due to the frequency of events in the state. There is also the added reputation of using judges who have had problems in the past, hence why we see the same names coming up. Tonight, it was Tony Weeks.
The solution is simple, and it will more than likely step on the toes of those who are entitled to positions as judges with the commission due to their experience and reputation. Think of it as the older generation running the company you work for. You may have some great ideas, but their content with the security of what has worked for the last 20 years. Unfortunately, those methods don't work in the modern era, and neither do the interpretations of the judging criteria that continue to be used by judges who continually score fights incorrectly.
Instead of believing that these judges can be miraculously changed in their old ways, commissions need to follow their policies. The review process needs to be stiffer and with more significant consequences. Good judging awards higher pay and bigger fights. Poor judging gets relegated to the "minors". The next step may need to be complete avoidance of the state, and that'll be tough for a promotion like the UFC, who is based in Nevada.
| FightMetric Report for Leonard Garcia vs. Nam Phan from the TUF 12 Finale FightMetric Report for Leonard Garcia vs. Nam Phan from the TUF 12 Finale - Bloody Elbow Quote:
Strikeforce kept me busy during the TUF finale, so I wasn't able to keep a close eye on the bout between Leonard Garcia and Nam Phan. From what I've gathered from Twitter, however, it seems the judges gifted Leonard Garcia another decision victory.
FightMetric quickly released their report for the bout, and it doesn't look good for Garcia.
Round one was close with Phan edging Garcia in both Total and Significant Strikes 33 to 30. Round two was all Phan, though. Phan outlanded Garcia 45 to 18. Of those 45 strikes, 41 targeted the head and 16 of those were power strikes. Phan significantly outlanded in round three as well, nearly doubling Garcia 38 to 22. Again, the majority of Phan's strikes, 29, targeted the head.
Garcia was awarded a takedown in both rounds two and three. FightMetric credited Phan with a rear-naked choke attempt in round three.
Phan crushed Garcia in FightMetric's Effectiveness Score 496 to 279. The extrapolated ten-point must score had Phan winning 30-27.
I look forward to watching this fight with my full concentration. It seems that swinging your arms like a windmill and walking forward is a valid way of winning a mixed martial arts contest in the eyes of too many judges. | I had Phan winning 30-27 and not losing one round yet they gave it to Garcia. Worst decision in MMA history. Or top 2 for sure. Can't remember a time a fighter clearly lost every round on EVERYONES scorecards but the judges. Wow. Dicuss guys.
__________________ There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful. |
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12-05-2010, 10:28 AM
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#2 (permalink)
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Status: Hadouken Join Date: May 2010 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 564
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I always had Hamil vs Bisping as my worst decision. This one took the title easily. I don't understand how its anything but 30-27 for Nam Phan
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12-05-2010, 10:33 AM
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#3 (permalink)
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Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here Posts: 18,568
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At least one judge got it right scoring it 30-27 for Phan. How does one judge score it 30-27 for Phan and the other two score it 29-28 for Garcia. Well how anyone could give any round to Garcia is beyond me. Still upset about this.
__________________ There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful. |
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12-05-2010, 10:33 AM
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#4 (permalink)
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Status: Blobfish Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern Ontario Posts: 4,233
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I had Pham winning 30 - 28.
Scored the first round a draw.
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12-05-2010, 10:46 AM
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#5 (permalink)
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Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here Posts: 18,568
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Oh the morning after...usually rough and full of regret, Quote:
Originally Posted by TN94z I respectfully disagree. I don't think Phan's standup is as good as they were making it out to be on the show. I see Garcia completely destroying Phan in the first round....but that's just my opinion | Quote:
Originally Posted by ckauffman28 garcia by stoppage or ud | Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanatos I think his standup is good enough to hang with Garcia, but it's Garcia's chin that will make the difference. There's gonna be a lot of punches thrown in the first round, the second round Garcia will go in for the kill. | Quote:
Originally Posted by iced wow, kind of throwing nam a really tough first fight. sort of odd for tuf eh?!
nam seems to have a pretty good chin too from what we have seen, but i think that he will struggle with garcia's hand speed. should be a great fight though! | Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sword I kind of agree with you. I see Garcia T(KO) him the 1st or 2nd round. but I have never seen Garcia in a boring fight ever. That why I said it should be a good fight. | Quote:
Originally Posted by TN94z I am not hating on his standup. He has descent standup, but they just kept referring to it on the show like it was really good and it's not really good. Johnson doesn't have good standup and he beat Nam standing last night. I'm not hating on Nam, I was actually pulling for him last night. I guess I just don't see what everyone else sees. | Quote:
Originally Posted by IceCold48 nams a little bitch and he sucks he gets owned by badboy | Quote:
Originally Posted by earle However, if Nam takes as many punches as he did in the Johnson fight, he's going to sleep. If Garcia is landing like that, he won't need three rounds to put him away. |
__________________ There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful. |
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12-05-2010, 10:52 AM
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#6 (permalink)
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Status: ArthurVee.Tumblr.com Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 5,614
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I lost all respect for Garcia as he actually tried to reason the scores..."I scored a few takedowns..." thankfuly he held his tongue after that moronic statement...I saw Cecil Peoples ringside but heard he did NOT judge that fight, which I am not sure about.
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12-05-2010, 10:54 AM
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#7 (permalink)
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Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here Posts: 18,568
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Originally Posted by TheKidInside I lost all respect for Garcia as he actually tried to reason the scores..."I scored a few takedowns..." thankfuly he held his tongue after that moronic statement...I saw Cecil Peoples ringside but heard he did NOT judge that fight, which I am not sure about. | Quote: |
judges Adalaide Byrd and Tony Weeks scored the bout two rounds to one in favor of Leonard Garcia
| The other judge scored it 30-27 for Nam
__________________ There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful. |
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12-05-2010, 11:19 AM
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#8 (permalink)
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Status: 12 Pick Parlay Winner Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Deep down the rabbit hole. Posts: 6,254
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Nam Phan for the Vietnamese!
Garcia got his ass KICKED.
Everyone knows Phan was robbed and the judges should all be Cro-Cop kicked to the their heads.
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12-05-2010, 11:21 AM
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#9 (permalink)
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Status: Chute Boxe Hero Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 5,835
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i still dont like nam and he was shady as fuck in the house but he was robbed garcia said he was robbed he was just talking about the takedowns as possible reasons that the judges gave him the win.
and that thing where sakara quoted everyone is retarded you could do that for so many fights.
__________________
"Chael that isn't even your belt!!"
"Well then whose do you propose it is?"
Last edited by IceCold48; 12-05-2010 at 11:24 AM.
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12-05-2010, 11:29 AM
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#10 (permalink)
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Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here Posts: 18,568
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Originally Posted by IceCold48 and that thing where sakara quoted everyone is retarded you could do that for so many fights. | I guess it would only be retarded when you say things like this and completely get it 1000 billion percent wrong.... Quote:
Originally Posted by IceCold48
nams a little bitch and he sucks he gets owned by badboy
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Oh and don't worry, as long as you fighter bash and say things like that, I'll continue it.
__________________ There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful. |
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