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[CHAEL fan]

Originally Posted by IceCold48

i dont know i guess we saw it differently. i felt like he was being a sarcastic asshole and basically dismissing everything wand was saying and was passive aggressively making fun of him imo.

You got it....basically Chael demonstrated through his sarcastic grin to Wand, "go fuck yourself." Some people just won't admit it that Chael basically laughed in his face without being too obvious.

[The Return Of......]

Originally Posted by CHAEL fan

You got it....basically Chael demonstrated through his sarcastic grin to Wand, "go fuck yourself." Some people just won't admit it that Chael basically laughed in his face without being too obvious.

key words in red. sorry dude, you can spin it any way you want. chael is a loud mouth when he has a mic, but when face to face with one of the greatest fighters ever in mma, who is telling him how things work.........he just grinned and took it.

look, everyone on here knows sonnen can take wand down. the difference though in wand and anderson is wand can be very very aggressive and come out swinging hard and fast and its not as easy to get a take down when you falling back rocked. not to mention wand has some pretty killer knees as well.

i think most non nut huggers will agree that sonnen does have a chance to grind out a dec in a 3 round fight against just about anyone (including anderson key here being 3 rounds, 25 min is too long to not get caught) but he also has a chance to get subbed, and every round starts standing....never good when facing a KO artist.

lets be honest here, theres hyping a fight like did against anderson, but if he talks trash to wand or is disrepectful as a coach should he coach opposite of wand then his fan base is probably going to shrink. especially if he trys to show out then gets KTFO like bisping did against hendo.

also.........im pretty sure wand knows a sub or 2 if chael makes through the first few min with his head on and gets it to the ground

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by CHAEL fan

You got it....basically Chael demonstrated through his sarcastic grin to Wand, "go fuck yourself." Some people just won't admit it that Chael basically laughed in his face without being too obvious.

No, he didn't. He made an effort to save some degree of face there, but he was uneasy. There is a difference between Wandi and Anderson...if you provoke him outside of a ring/cage, you don't know what's going to happen. There is an element of barely-controlled violence to Wand that is absent in a lot of fighters, even out of the cage, there is often [not always, obviously, but often] a sense that he's a heartbeat away from bloodshed. Chael is smart enough to know that, and he walked a tightrope there. You can try to spin it any way you'd like [or manlove, if you prefer] but there was no "go fuck yourself" in that vid.

You might also note that he's not talking shit about Brazil anymore, and limiting his sophomoric attempts at humor to Wand himself.

Originally Posted by The Return Of......

look, everyone on here knows sonnen can take wand down. the difference though in wand and anderson is wand can be very very aggressive and come out swinging hard and fast and its not as easy to get a take down when you falling back rocked. not to mention wand has some pretty killer knees as well.

Wand also has a very underutilized blackbelt, and I'm betting that with insults directed at them [as well as their homeland] both Nogs are studying film and are ready to provide Nog pointers on capitalizing on Sonnen's unwillingness to surrender base once he's in the top.



I really find Chael and his ilk--aside from the obvious steroid suspicions--to be the worst part of MMA. I understand trying to hype a fight, but to do it in a manner that appeals to only the most childish of fans does nothing to move the sport forward, it merely digs the pigeonhole the mainstream would like to keep MMA in deeper.

rh

[Masscore]

Originally Posted by rivethead

I really find Chael and his ilk--aside from the obvious steroid suspicions--to be the worst part of MMA. I understand trying to hype a fight, but to do it in a manner that appeals to only the most childish of fans does nothing to move the sport forward, it merely digs the pigeonhole the mainstream would like to keep MMA in deeper.

rh

To quote some random rapper I do not remember the name of "Don't hate the playa... hate the game."

I think I have said this about 1000x but here we go again, we the fans are to blame for guys like Sonnen and Koscheck. We deemed their style of fighting as "boring." Personally I do not see how you can find a guy like Sonnen boring. The guy is the only person to throw caution to the wind and charge in on the most lethal counter-striker in MMA history. Most guys piss themsevles when standing across from Anderson Silva (Griffin, Franklin, Cote, Lietes and Maia) meanwhile Sonnen went right at the guy. Yet becuase he is a wrestler without KO power or a black-belt... he is boring LnP. So to get noticed he talks trash. And it has worked for him as he will probably be the TUF 13 coach even after the whole steroids things.

Also to think trash talking hurts MMA is kind of weird when you look at everyother sport. The most talked about football game of the season was the Jets v. Pats this last monday and it was because of all the trash talk by the Jets and their fat ass head coach. And you can not get any more mainstream then the NFL.

[Adambomb]

Originally Posted by rivethead

I really find Chael and his ilk--aside from the obvious steroid suspicions--to be the worst part of MMA. I understand trying to hype a fight, but to do it in a manner that appeals to only the most childish of fans does nothing to move the sport forward, it merely digs the pigeonhole the mainstream would like to keep MMA in deeper.

rh

Muhammed Ali said some pretty childish things to hype his fights, yet he was accepted by the mainstream and boosted boxing to unprecedented levels of interest. The same is true of Mike Tyson.

The people that want to keep MMA out of the mainstream are baby boomers. Most of them will never be converted. It's a generational gap much like taste in music. MMA is huge in the 18-35 demo, and as long as the UFC or another huge promotion is well-run, over time it will become one of the most popular sports in the world. It easily crosses national, language, and cultural barriers. Very few sports have that ability.

[Daellusx]

Gotta hand it to Chael. He has really sold his new persona well. So well that you guys actually believe the stuff that comes out of his mouth. Chael even said it himself that he has to get in to character to start talking so much mess.

Basically he talks crap to hype up his fights. Take away the things he says when hyping a fight and he actually is a kind of humble fighter. Immediately after the Anderson Silva fight he was "out of character" and you got to see what type of person he really is. Pre-fight he was in the Chael the MMA fighter persona so he talked endless amount of crap.

Why would he talk crap to Wand when they were not scheduled to fight and there was nothing to hype? Wand, like most of you here, bought in to Chael's promo and took the stuff he was saying way too seriously.

All this talk about how he was scared to talk smack to Wand's face may or may not be true. Only Chael knows if he is afraid of Wand but I seriously doubt he is. More likely he just didnt want to get into a pointless argument with Wand in a vehicle while en route to a UFC event.
Come on people, think things through a little bit. Do you guys really think that someone who makes a living fighting other people is going to be "scared" of someone? If any fighter is ever scared of another fighter they have no business being in that cage. Nervous, anxious, cautious, yes. Scared? I dont think so.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Masscore

To quote some random rapper I do not remember the name of "Don't hate the playa... hate the game."

I think I have said this about 1000x but here we go again, we the fans are to blame for guys like Sonnen and Koscheck. We deemed their style of fighting as "boring." Personally I do not see how you can find a guy like Sonnen boring. The guy is the only person to throw caution to the wind and charge in on the most lethal counter-striker in MMA history. Most guys piss themsevles when standing across from Anderson Silva (Griffin, Franklin, Cote, Lietes and Maia) meanwhile Sonnen went right at the guy. Yet becuase he is a wrestler without KO power or a black-belt... he is boring LnP. So to get noticed he talks trash. And it has worked for him as he will probably be the TUF 13 coach even after the whole steroids things.

I don't find grappling boring. Yes, people do, and most often, they're the ignorant dipshits who would find his trash talk hilarious.

I don't look at them as MMA fans. I look at them as fans of spectacle. If an extreme sport came out next week involving naked women and beer bongs, they'd abandon MMA as quickly as some hack could churn out overpriced tee shirts to appeal to their psuedomachismo.

Also to think trash talking hurts MMA is kind of weird when you look at everyother sport. The most talked about football game of the season was the Jets v. Pats this last monday and it was because of all the trash talk by the Jets and their fat ass head coach. And you can not get any more mainstream then the NFL.

Again, the NFL already is mainstream. It has the luxury of acceptance, and thus when one of it's figures is an outlyer from the herd, the rest of the industry isn't branded by their behavior. Ryan was soundly criticized by most of the NFL media for being stupid, and most of them were gleeful that NE schooled them.

But that doesn't mean that people who don't know jack shit about MMA aren't going to see Sonnen as a typical fighter, meaning the typical MMA fighter routinely hs to make obscene, racist, homophobic and unfunny insults in attempt to sell his conservative fighting style to a reluctant audience. Not to mention personal integrity/credibility and or PED issues.

Originally Posted by Adambomb

Muhammed Ali said some pretty childish things to hype his fights, yet he was accepted by the mainstream and boosted boxing to unprecedented levels of interest. The same is true of Mike Tyson.

Actually, both fighters were ostracized by the mainstream at the time of the events, even if time [and retirement] has give rose-colored glasses to the memory. And again, boxing is already ensconced in the mainstream, a luxury MMA does not have.

Muhammad Ali also never told anyone to shove anything up their ass. The problem with trash talk is that to stay cutting edge, it needs to get more and more extreme as the fringe element that it caters to become desensitized to more and more via repetition.

Originally Posted by Daellusx

Gotta hand it to Chael. He has really sold his new persona well. So well that you guys actually believe the stuff that comes out of his mouth. Chael even said it himself that he has to get in to character to start talking so much mess.

On the contrary. I don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth, and I understand it's a calculated act. However, the mainstream is going to both believe it and take it out of context.

Is it going to single-handedly not get MMA licensed in New York? No. Obviously not.

But it's a situation where a marginal group is working to be accepted into the mainstream, and said group is still defined by nebulous figures in the myopic perception of the mainstream; and so if you're not part of the solution, your part of the problem. Yes, it's good for Sonnen to sell more PPV's to clueless psuedofans who hate grappling, but it's short term success at potential long term loss.

rh

[Adambomb]

Actually, both fighters were ostracized by the mainstream at the time of the events, even if time [and retirement] has give rose-colored glasses to the memory. And again, boxing is already ensconced in the mainstream, a luxury MMA does not have.

Muhammad Ali also never told anyone to shove anything up their ass. The problem with trash talk is that to stay cutting edge, it needs to get more and more extreme as the fringe element that it caters to become desensitized to more and more via repetition.

The fighters may have been ostracized, Ali in particular, but people paid to see them, and in the end that's what's most important. It increases the sport's popularity, which in turn forces it to be mainstream. Being mainstream doesn't mean something is universally endorsed, it just means it has enough support that it has to be acknowledged and a lack of coverage would make the network/journalist/whoever appear ignorant and out of touch.

Tyson did not cater to a fringe element. He's the biggest draw the heavyweight division has ever seen, not just because of his exciting style & brief dominance, but also because of his persona. He was "the baddest man on the planet" and as a result everyone wanted to watch him fight. Boxing may have already been mainstream, but he took it to another level.

Contrast that with the Klitchko Bros; both these guys are just as dominant as Tyson ever was. They're also incredibly intelligent, both have PHD's, and excellent ambassadors for the sport. However, nobody in America cares about them. Could it be because they're foreign? Doubtful, as Manny Pacqiao speaks far worse English and is still a huge draw in the states. Is it because the heavyweight division sucks? Possibly, but the division also sucked when Tyson was on top. Is it because their style is boring? While they're both very technical and take few chances, they deliver more than their fair share of KO's.

To put it simply they both lack personality. Yes they're great, but greatness only goes so far. Casual sports fans need a story or personality to root for or against. There has to be conflict. If you want MMA to be mainstream right now these fans have to be catered to. GSP shaking hands and respecting his opponents isn't going to accomplish anything new. The sport is already sanctioned in almost every state and is all over TV. It no longer needs to appear overly civilized, it just has to attract viewers.

I've gone on record as saying in time MMA's younger demo will replace those who vilify the sport and make it one of biggest in the world. It's not a matter of if, but when...just like Ali being deified 30 years later.

I do agree that trash talk gets a little excessive at times and guys go overboard in a desperate plea for attention. The problem with that though isn't so much their words, but rather their lack of ability to back up what they say. Ali & Tyson became so popular because they taunted their opponents and followed through with their promises. Chael Sonnen is so popular now because he backed up his trash talk and dominated Silva for 23 minutes, which nobody thought he could do. Rashad Evans is unpopular because he made it seem like he wanted to KO Rampage then did everything possible to avoid exchanges. The promotion & the fights themselves must go hand and hand to create a bankable persona.

[rivethead]

You're still overlooking that boxing was already mainstream before Ali and Tyson said a goddamn thing. You're also overlooking that a lot of boxing fans couldn't stand Tyson's shit talking and that it cost him respect in the industry, which only became more extreme as he failed to be able to back it up.

I'm not saying that shit talking is preventing MMA to break into the mainstream. I'm not saying that it is the reason it's not licensed in NY.

I'm saying I find it to be the worst part of MMA. I find that it caters most to the least intelligent of the demographic, of the new fans that got sucked in by WWE crossover bullshit and still don't understand a tenth of what they're watching.

I also said that I have found it makes the pigeonhole--inaccurate and ineptly applied though it is--seem more appropriate to mainstream haters of the sport. Sonnen was the face of MMA for a while a few months back. But the people I know who hate MMA know him for A) talking shit and failing B) testing hot for PED's C) crazy lies and bullshit integrity. Because they don't know shit about shit anyway, it's easy for them to assume that he's the rule, rather than the exception. And to them, he's "the second best fighter in MMA" who is a full-of-shit liar who takes steroids by the handful.

The mainstream has the luxury of not caring if they're accurate. They're comfortable with believing they're right and not bothering to do any research that indicates otherwise.

Again, it doesn't mean that Sonnen is responsible for keeping MMA out of the Olympics. It just means that I find his personal branding at the expense of the perceived integrity of the industry distasteful.

rh

[Adambomb]

Originally Posted by rivethead

You're still overlooking that boxing was already mainstream before Ali and Tyson said a goddamn thing. You're also overlooking that a lot of boxing fans couldn't stand Tyson's shit talking and that it cost him respect in the industry, which only became more extreme as he failed to be able to back it up.

I'm not saying that shit talking is preventing MMA to break into the mainstream. I'm not saying that it is the reason it's not licensed in NY.

I'm saying I find it to be the worst part of MMA. I find that it caters most to the least intelligent of the demographic, of the new fans that got sucked in by WWE crossover bullshit and still don't understand a tenth of what they're watching.

I also said that I have found it makes the pigeonhole--inaccurate and ineptly applied though it is--seem more appropriate to mainstream haters of the sport. Sonnen was the face of MMA for a while a few months back. But the people I know who hate MMA know him for A) talking shit and failing B) testing hot for PED's C) crazy lies and bullshit integrity. Because they don't know shit about shit anyway, it's easy for them to assume that he's the rule, rather than the exception. And to them, he's "the second best fighter in MMA" who is a full-of-shit liar who takes steroids by the handful.

The mainstream has the luxury of not caring if they're accurate. They're comfortable with believing they're right and not bothering to do any research that indicates otherwise.

Again, it doesn't mean that Sonnen is responsible for keeping MMA out of the Olympics. It just means that I find his personal branding at the expense of the perceived integrity of the industry distasteful.

rh

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but what you seem to overlook is that trash talking doesn't just appeal to "the least intelligent of the demographic." The days when Tyson was dominant are revered as glory days. Fans and sports writers alike yearn for another Mike Tyson to make heavyweight boxing relevant again. While he may have attracted a lot of idiots that never ordered a PPV Iron Mike wasn't on, he also attracted a lot of fans that gave boxing a closer look and became fans for life.

You seem to think that making the image of the sport respectable and classy will turn the haters into supporters. That simply will never happen. People who hate MMA will probably always hate MMA. They're not the people that need to be recruited. Rather, it's those that're undecided or are fans of similar entertainment that can most easily be converted. Hearing an intelligent interview from a fighter isn't going to make them want to order a PPV. It may make those that hate speak less disparagingly about the sport, but that's not exactly supporting it and isn't helping very much.

Why do you disparage WWE fans? I myself was a WWE fan, and got into MMA because Shamrock returned to fight Tito Ortiz. That was the first MMA bout I ever saw, and I've been hooked ever since. However a promotion gets people to watch, and whatever the audience were fans of before is irrelevant. What matters is they check it out and give the sport a chance. Over time they can learn to appreciate the intricacies.

The mainstream has the luxury of not caring if they're accurate. They're comfortable with believing they're right and not bothering to do any research that indicates otherwise.

Again, the only way for a sport to become mainstream is by having enough supporters to force the opposition acknowledge the popularity and cover the events because there is money to be made in doing so. Popularity = mainstream acceptance, but mainstream acceptance doesn't = popularity. Just look at how boxing and tennis have faded.

For MMA to become mainstream, it needs to get as many fans as it can get. Why would you want to turn away fans? Even those that are the "least intelligent"? In the end it's the amount of fans and the amount of money they're willing to spend that will make MMA a mainstream sport. Nothing more, and nothing less.