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[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Piz

What I don't get is when you say "Title fight record" for GSP at 8-2, then mention Kos x2. When GSP beat Kos the 1st time it was not a title fight.

He's listing two different things...both their record in title matches, and their notable opponents, both title and non-title. He lists Royce as a big win for Hughes when it wasn't a title fight either.

Another thing, GSP only has 2 loses, why would you put his 1st loss to Hughes in the "Title Fight" catagory?

Again, there are two different lists, but the first Hughes/GSP fight at UFC 50was a title fight...it was for the WW title Penn [theoretically] vacated when after choking Matt out and then bailing for greener pa$ture$ in Japan...so it counts as a loss for Georges and a win for Matt.

Also, GSP is 7-1 in title defenses, the third time he beat Hughes it was for the interim title, not world. GSP got the belt back next fight against Serra.

Interim titles are still a title. They're bullshit, but they're still a title.

rh

[Masscore]

GSP is catching up on Hughes, but Hughes is still the greatest WW of all time. Its not the fact that Hughes just won, he won by dominating and finishing his opponents. Hughes never looked to win on points or outscore people like GSP does. Hughes came into the octagon not only looking to beat you and keep his title, he was looking to send you to the ER. He had a mean streak that GSP just doesn't have.

Also, when it comes to who had the tougher compention, you really can not compare eras. The guys Hughes fought were considered top level contenders when he fought them. Sakurai was 19-1-2 and a huge favorite when he fought Hughes and many people ranked him in the Top 5 P4P in the world before that fight. Sean Sherk was 22-0 and was the number 2 WW when they had their fight. Trigg was a Top 5 WW when he fought him both times. Penn was the number 3 WW when they had their rematch. So yes looking back on it, maybe Hughes fought weaker fighters, but when he fought them they were considered top guys.

GSP is going to be ranked higher because he is fresher in people's minds. There are actually probably very few people on this forum that were following MMA when Hughes was champion during his first reign. For now Hughes is still the best, but GSP will probably pass him after his fight with Shields.

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by rivethead

If you're not including GSP/Koscheck at UFC 74, and only talking about his championship fights, I'd agree to a point. But Georges lost the first round to Kos in 2007, and didn't exactly dominate the rest of the fight.

I disagree that he lost the first round to Kos. GSP got the takedown, controlled 3 and a half minutes of that round, passed to at least half guard, and landed 3x more strikes than Kos on the ground. Kos, on the other hand, escaped (but did not sweep GSP), first failed to take GSP down, still held on to the leg and then finally got the takedown (I must admit that was a beautiful TD though). He then was in GSP's guard the whole time and landed much less strikes than GSP. GSP also did a much better job controlling the posture of Kos on his back than Kos did. To me, it was either a GSP round or at the worst a draw, but I can't see how you score it for Kos (although 2 judges did as well, but I rarely care for their opinion).

Originally Posted by Piz

What I don't get is when you say "Title fight record" for GSP at 8-2, then mention Kos x2. When GSP beat Kos the 1st time it was not a title fight.

Another thing, GSP only has 2 loses, why would you put his 1st loss to Hughes in the "Title Fight" catagory?

Also, GSP is 7-1 in title defenses, the third time he beat Hughes it was for the interim title, not world. GSP got the belt back next fight against Serra.


Just a wonder why you use these numbers? Confussed

Rivethead clarified it [see below]. Those two sets are independent of each other. Thanks RH.

Originally Posted by rivethead

He's listing two different things...both their record in title matches, and their notable opponents, both title and non-title. He lists Royce as a big win for Hughes when it wasn't a title fight either.


Again, there are two different lists, but the first Hughes/GSP fight at UFC 50was a title fight...it was for the WW title Penn [theoretically] vacated when after choking Matt out and then bailing for greener pa$ture$ in Japan...so it counts as a loss for Georges and a win for Matt.

Interim titles are still a title. They're bullshit, but they're still a title.

[Lesnar_FTW]

GSP is definitely the best WW ever. He has had more quality opponents than Hughes and imo has been even more dominant against higher level opponents than Hughes was against his opponents.

[Rise]

I'd give the nod to GSP for one reason only and that's the victories over Hughes which were both dominate. I think the overall level competition both faced is similar as it's really easy to dismiss Hughes opponents as not great looking back but at the time they were legitimate contenders.

I also disagree with finishing fights as a reason to exclude GSP from this or any top p4p list as well. He dominates guys when he fights completely when fighting them for 5 solid rounds and never is threatened the entire time which is impressive when you consider the skill sets of the people he fights. Not losing a round in years is just as great an accomplishment as any KO or Sub.

[Caine2878]

Originally Posted by Masscore

GSP is catching up on Hughes, but Hughes is still the greatest WW of all time. Its not the fact that Hughes just won, he won by dominating and finishing his opponents. Hughes never looked to win on points or outscore people like GSP does. Hughes came into the octagon not only looking to beat you and keep his title, he was looking to send you to the ER. He had a mean streak that GSP just doesn't have.

Also, when it comes to who had the tougher compention, you really can not compare eras. The guys Hughes fought were considered top level contenders when he fought them. Sakurai was 19-1-2 and a huge favorite when he fought Hughes and many people ranked him in the Top 5 P4P in the world before that fight. Sean Sherk was 22-0 and was the number 2 WW when they had their fight. Trigg was a Top 5 WW when he fought him both times. Penn was the number 3 WW when they had their rematch. So yes looking back on it, maybe Hughes fought weaker fighters, but when he fought them they were considered top guys.

GSP is going to be ranked higher because he is fresher in people's minds. There are actually probably very few people on this forum that were following MMA when Hughes was champion during his first reign. For now Hughes is still the best, but GSP will probably pass him after his fight with Shields.

Just cause those guys were ranked highly at that time doesn't make them better competition. That could just mean that the division was weak back then.

I know most of you don't like boxing but this is the closest comparision I can make. Take the heavyweight division in boxing today. You have the Klits brothers who are the top two guys rank wise, then you have a complete pile of scraps after them. You have guys ranked in the top 10 does this mean they are great competitors? NO. The division is just weak compared to the way the Heavyweight division used to be when Ali, Frazier, Foreman etc., were fighting.

Same goes for the WW division when Hughes reigned. Division was not the great by any means. IMO the WW division is stacked but GSP is just miles ahead of all of them. If he moves up to MW I can see the WW division becoming like the LHW division were its very hard for anyone to keep the title.

Just my opinion.

[end it with a left]

first of all GSP is the best WW of all time. IMO you can't hold it against GSP for not finishing, he's fighting the best fighters out there. They're going to have the defensive capabilities to survive, which his couple opponents have done, fight to survive not to win. The last person I feel fought GSP and didn't just survive was Alves.

And what's with the Newton hate? When Matt Hughes k.o'd him with that slam he was out due to that guillotine. He may be a can now but he was very good in his prime.

[macewen]

hughes n royce wasnt for the title i didnt think? wasnt it a catch weight or something?

Yeah, gsp is the goat at ww...in all honesty, whats left when he beats shields? Heres whats going to happen (only because it would suck so bad)

already, im sure dw and the ferttitas have spoken, if anderson beats vitor, gsp beats jake, hes going up for a title fight...so, now what could cause this to NOT happen? Vitor belfort...

[YukonJordan]

As had been pointed out above GSP is clearly the greater WW of all time.
-GSP beat Penn, once in the very close fight and once in dominating fashion whereas Hughes has lost twice to Penn and was well on his way to losing the second match before BJ's freak rib injury.
-Hughes edged Sherk in a decision, GSP mauled Sherk.
-Hughes beat Trigg twice but GSP again absolutely dominated.
-Hughes outpointed Serra but GSP tko'd him.
-GSP has two dominant victories over Hughes whereas in the fight Hughes won he was in trouble before pulling of the nice armbar counter. A good win but left room for questions unlike GSP's wins.
-I think GSP's other victories and the opponents he has them against are more impressive than Hughes' but I'm going to focus on dominance here. GSP has only lost two rounds in his career 1 1/3 to Penn and 2/3 of a round to Koschek and more importantly has never really looked to be in trouble with the exception of round 1 versus Penn. Hughes on the other hand has been in trouble plenty of times during his victories. He was out cold when he slammed Newton, Penn was outworking him prior to seperating his rib and Trigg had him in trouble.

Now all that being said we should keep in that when Hughes was champion the new version of MMA was in it's infancy. The sport and it's fighters have grown leaps and bounds since Hughes was champion last. While not the greatest WW of all time Hughes certainly deserves and asterisk next to his name as the first great welterweight to come around.

[JCVD]

Originally Posted by rivethead

I think Georges is already the best WW of all time. I also have him #1 p4p right now.

His willingness to fight anyone, anytime is not only commendable, but it's what seperates him from the two other fighters most often in #1 p4p discussions, Fedor and Anderson. But it's actually more than that: Fedor and Anderson both have management who's fear that a legitimate opponent might derail their cash cow and effectively duck confrontation at this point.

And [since UFC 69 anyway] Georges prepares for each opponent as though he's going to win the belt from him. He doesn't cut corners, he doesn't assume that a guy like Hardy isn't a threat so he can coast, he goes in and does his best to win every round. He doesn't play air guitar, he doesn't refuse to go to the ground with someone because he likes to strike, he goes where the fight takes him.

Truly great Post. Exactly my opinion on the current p4p discussion, you've listed all the reasons why i think GSP should be not just considered p4p king but should be universally respected wheter a fan or not. Your post is exactly how i see GSP's better traits in my head, i'm just not always literate enough to express it in the terms you did in your post!

He takes on all comers in one of the strongest divisions in mma, never makes excuses as to why someone doesn't deserve a shot at his belt. And the fact that he doesn't surround himself with yes men or let his management run his career really makes him stand out from the others. That along with your comment about how he respects every opponent, accepts that any of them could legetimately take away his belt and so trains accordingly really make him not just a great representative for MMA but the perfect example in every way of what a professional fighters attitude should be.

Hughes deserves his hall of fame status and is one of the greatest of all time but GSP is the greatest of all time. When you bear in mind that he is still only 29, his career and achievements are all the more impressive. God only knows how much more he will have achieved by the time he is 35.