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[killerinstinct]

Originally Posted by Gusdaberean

[

"the Ken on the show was normal Ken, only cares about himself.. "

My point exactly, the Ken I always thought of was one who respected tradition someone who could be a face for the sport. But after seeing how selfish he is makes me realize what a really nice guy Tito is. Yeah, in the heat of battle Tito talks garbage but that is being competitive much like in basketball Larry Bird talked his junk. But Tito is the more OPEN person when it comes to being diverse in fighting technique which probably explains why he abnsolutely trashed Ken the first time. I hope he does put Ken into retirement because Ken is narowminded as an indiviual and when it comes to the sport so he needs to be put to rest for good!

lol. your argument would work only there's one thing you forgot to add. Yeah Tito talks smack b4 his fights I really don't have a problem with that.What I do have a problem with is talking smack after fights.Being disrespectful.Blatantly stealing peoples nicknames.Pushing Women.Getting to pick your opponents.Ducking fighters.Tito's not a nice guy he's a despicible piece of shit.His time on the show was like someone going to a new school.When you go to a new school no one knows you and you can be anyone you want.you can reinvent yourself ,but it's only so long b4 we see the real you.On the show we didn't have enough time to see the real Tito.

[kickass32]

See, I disagree. I think that is more like the "real" Tito. The UFC fighter Tito Ortiz, is a show, he is a persona, and he talks trash and wears shirts that pisses people off....why? Because it sells, he's a fighter sure, but he's also a performer. The shit Tito does that 50% of the people hate and the other 50% love....is making alot of fighters money.......much more money than if the UFC had nothing but verbally challenged robotic fighters like Shamrock.
I HATE Wanderlai(?) Silva, but he does alot of the same shit as Tito, and some probabaly worse, but I gotta give him credit, he makes people talk and he puts ass's into the seats.

[Masscore]

I think it was the real Tito and not a show. It is competely possible to be an asshole and be a great coach. Acctually a lot of great coaches were complete assholes when they were in the sport.

For example, in High School when I was wrestling I was a complete ass to just about everyone that wasn't on my team. I talked shit to other coaches and yelled at the refs plenty of times during my matches. But now I've been coaching for two years and I do my best to be there for every kid on my team. In two years I've had a State champion and State Finalist on my team. It is possible to be an ass during the event and then be a great caring coach.

[Big Daddy Duker]

Here's how it goes:

Ken Shamrock - not the sharpest tool in the shed. Ken clearly took TUF 3 just to get at Tito. He obviously didn't care too much about the training aspect of it. Look at it from his perspective, however. These kids come in "wanting" help, to be trained. Then, they start questioning his training methods. (Look at Ken's argument with Tait and tell me Ken didn't have a point - they whine about not enough training, then they whine about too much training...) Let's face it - most of them never wanted to be trained by Ken Shamrock. They wanted either to get exposure as MMA fighters or (a la Ed Herman) had a giant Tito boner. I can't say I would have acted too much differently from Ken if I was in his shoes. These kids didn't seek him out like the people who go to the Lion's Den, they came to get on TV and had a bad attitude about training from the get go. It was reality television, not a bona fide teacher/student relationship. Ken is not a bright guy, he's basically a big dumb meatball who's proud of it - but villainizing him for TUF 3 is silly. Talk to Lion's Den guys, see what they say about Ken as a teacher.

Tito Ortiz - actually pretty bright guy for a fighter. Knows how to sell himself, knows who he ought to be fighting, and who he ought not to be fighting (sometimes), and acts accordingly. Tito is, however, a loud-mouth who plays politics and is constantly making excuses for himself and his actions. I don't know whether he hit a woman or not, but his post and pre-fight antics have been fairly consistent over his career, and they speak volumes. Tito was a better Teacher than Ken on TUF 3, no doubt about it. Is it because he really is this nice, caring guy who everyone has gotten wrong, and who has just been terribly misunderstood for the last 7 years, or is it more likely that was he playing politics again?

-Neither one of these guys are real role models. I'd like to see Ken stomp Tito, however, as I prefer an honest bonehead to a bright politician. It's worth noting also, however, that, while those who love Tito write off all of his poor behavior as being brilliant at selling fights etc., no one has once suggested that Ken Shamrock (Mr. WWF, member of Vince McMahon's "Corporation") might be doing the same thing with all of his "bitch monkey"ing and "beat you into a living death" antics. Ken's no rocket scientist, but I suspect that he learned a thing or two from Vinnie Mac up in Connecticut.

[WorldsMostDangerousMan]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Duker

Here's how it goes:

Ken Shamrock - not the sharpest tool in the shed. Ken clearly took TUF 3 just to get at Tito. He obviously didn't care too much about the training aspect of it. Look at it from his perspective, however. These kids come in "wanting" help, to be trained. Then, they start questioning his training methods. (Look at Ken's argument with Tait and tell me Ken didn't have a point - they whine about not enough training, then they whine about too much training...) Let's face it - most of them never wanted to be trained by Ken Shamrock. They wanted either to get exposure as MMA fighters or (a la Ed Herman) had a giant Tito boner. I can't say I would have acted too much differently from Ken if I was in his shoes. These kids didn't seek him out like the people who go to the Lion's Den, they came to get on TV and had a bad attitude about training from the get go. It was reality television, not a bona fide teacher/student relationship. Ken is not a bright guy, he's basically a big dumb meatball who's proud of it - but villainizing him for TUF 3 is silly. Talk to Lion's Den guys, see what they say about Ken as a teacher.

Tito Ortiz - actually pretty bright guy for a fighter. Knows how to sell himself, knows who he ought to be fighting, and who he ought not to be fighting (sometimes), and acts accordingly. Tito is, however, a loud-mouth who plays politics and is constantly making excuses for himself and his actions. I don't know whether he hit a woman or not, but his post and pre-fight antics have been fairly consistent over his career, and they speak volumes. Tito was a better Teacher than Ken on TUF 3, no doubt about it. Is it because he really is this nice, caring guy who everyone has gotten wrong, and who has just been terribly misunderstood for the last 7 years, or is it more likely that was he playing politics again?

-Neither one of these guys are real role models. I'd like to see Ken stomp Tito, however, as I prefer an honest bonehead to a bright politician. It's worth noting also, however, that, while those who love Tito write off all of his poor behavior as being brilliant at selling fights etc., no one has once suggested that Ken Shamrock (Mr. WWF, member of Vince McMahon's "Corporation") might be doing the same thing with all of his "bitch monkey"ing and "beat you into a living death" antics. Ken's no rocket scientist, but I suspect that he learned a thing or two from Vinnie Mac up in Connecticut.

I totally agree, I would like to see Ken stomp Tito as well, will it happen I don't know Tito even though I hate his attitude is a good fighter and he did give Ken a beating last time they fought granted Shamrock never stopped or gave up but still as much as i hate 2 say it tito did whip his ass. I also agree that Ken only did TUF 3 to get another shot at Tito where Tito was more into helping the kids do better

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by killerinstinct

The date was July 13th, 2002; the location was none other than London, England - the birthplace of prize fighting. Mere hours after the Ultimate Fighting Championship had ended, an afterparty occurred in the city's downtown area. Although 'officially' the fighting had ended earlier, little did anyone know the bout of the night was about to take place. On this night, Lee Murray shocked the world and forever etched his name into the Mixed Martial Arts history books. For his fans, the events of that night are looked upon in a proud and very favorable light. However, supporters of Tito Ortiz reflect upon the same day with humiliation, embarrassment, shame, and denial. According to all accounts of the incident not told by Ortiz himself, their shame is more than justified.

In order to better understand the events, it is important to know what preceded the history making encounter between Lee Murray and Tito Ortiz. Prior to it, Lee Murray had grown up in the toughest streets that England had to offer. Often fighting for his own survival, Murray became a tough fighter out of necessity. Growing up in an orphanage, Murray was taken advantage of as a youth and forced into a fighting circuit for children in the shady underground of London; it was here he gained valuable street experience. Afterwards, he began boxing and competing in mixed martial arts events because violence was all he had known growing up; it was also the only way for Lee to conquer the inner demons that that haunted him after surviving the underground orphan fighting circuit. Those same demons greatly desensitized Lee, transforming him into the cold hearted street machine we all know and recognize today.

In contrast, Tito had been living a pampered, wealthy lifestyle in sunny southern California. At the time he visited London, he was the Light Heavyweight Champion of the UFC, earning six figures for each fight. Tito had also aligned himself with the UFC's new owners, known as Zuffa (his previous managers), and was therefore given instant poster boy status, a steady stream of handpicked opponents, and a new weight class just to make it easier for the natural heavyweight to compete against much smaller opponents. All of this was done in an effort to showcase Ortiz's supposed invincibility inside the cage. But Tito had grown very accustomed to fighting opponents with poor standup, and neglected to train in that area of fighting. Worst of all, Tito had begun to believe his own hype, even going so far as to directly steal a line from famed pitfighter David 'Tank' Abbott and proclaim himself the 'Huntington Beach Badboy'.

These factors all played a part in the dramatic conclusion on the night of UFC 38, with an epic confrontation leaving one man standing and another forever damaged in the court of public opinion. As countless unbiased witnesses have explained, the altercation was initiated by Ortiz, but quickly ended by Murray. Cocky and arrogant, Tito Ortiz went into what witnesses described as "roid rage", (a term for side-effects resulting from excessive steroid use); Tito was angered over something insignificant and set out to teach what he perceived to be "cocky and insubordinate" English fighters and fans a lesson, in typical bully fashion. Instead of attempting to resolve the dispute like a man, Ortiz inexplicably approached Lee Murray?s girlfriend and shoved her to the ground. As any real man would, Lee Murray reacted with anger of his own; the 6ft3 and 225 pound Tito Ortiz saw a 180 pound opponent coming towards him, but mistook Lee for another smaller and weaker opponent who he could easily dominate - but both he and the entire Mixed Martial Arts community were about to be taught a hard lesson.

Due to his arrogance and "roid rage", Tito lowered his head and charged Lee, throwing weak, flailing "windmill" style punches that witnesses described as being "girly". As all of the bystanders report it, Lee simply backed up a few steps and then countered with a punching combo that knocked Ortiz down to the ground - "two straight ones and two uppercuts", in his own words. Murray instantly followed up his knockdown with a swift kick to the face of Ortiz, reminding him why he competed in an event that prohibited such acts. Murray, still very angry, screamed at his downed opponent "you're in London now, motherfucker!" before friends and passersby pulled him away from Tito's limp body.

Obviously, Ortiz was mentally and physically defeated by a smaller opponent; some say he simply gave up when faced with superior rage and technique, much as he did to Frank Shamrock in the UFC. The self-described "Huntington Beach Badboy" curled up in a ball and fell into the fetal position after being knocked down, just as weaker animals in the animal kingdom demonstrate their inferiority to more powerful beasts. In fact, the courageous Matt Hughes was forced to throw himself on top of a downed Ortiz in order to prevent any more of an LAPD-style beatdown.

Afterwards, a bloody and beaten Tito Ortiz began spinning the event with typical lies and excuses, and an account of the affair directly contradicting every other report of the incident. Many internet and UFC fans were (and still are) fooled by the spin job, but many others know the truth. Ortiz was also reportedly was forced to see a psychologist to battle persistent questions surrounding his own manhood after his loss to Murray, including a humiliating battle with impotence. His, ego, ability to sustain a satisfactory erection and face may have been hurt that night, but the damage to his reputation will never be lived down.

As For Lee Murray, he gained instant fame and recognition after the incident, and has been on a path of destruction in MMA ever since, including a knockout of famed Bas Rutten student Amir in a mere four seconds. Lee also created a legion of hardcore internet fans, loyal to the last man. After hearing about the quick and savage destruction Murray handed Tito Ortiz, very few fighters are willing to step up to Lee and take him on in the streets OR the cage. Will Murray ever receive his big break and get a shot in the UFC, or will Zuffa continue to protect their poster boy from the aptly nicknamed "Taco Terrorizer"?

This page was created in an attempt to honor the UK's finest warrior and create his first official fan club site. It was also written in response to the false charges and accusations made surrounding the Ortiz/Murray debacle. Most importantly however, the Lee Murray fans know that whether it be in the streets, the ring or the cage, he will compete like a true warrior. Welcome to the first unofficial Lee Murray fanclub page, hopefully you will enjoy visiting almost as much as Lee enjoyed filling the filthy streets of London with the blood of the "Mexican Myth"!this is how things happened.

yep all true, i even read a statement from pat miletich where he said he "watched Lee Murray light him up like a christmas tree" He said him and chuck liddell had to get involved to stop murrays friends giving Tito a proper beating

[killerinstinct]

Originally Posted by MikeT

yep all true, i even read a statement from pat miletich where he said he "watched Lee Murray light him up like a christmas tree" He said him and chuck liddell had to get involved to stop murrays friends giving Tito a proper beating

that's what i've been trying to tell people all of tito's lame ass fans keep making cover up stories and lies about the event ,but like i've said b4 true mma fans know what really happened.

[Masscore]

Originally Posted by killerinstinct

Will Murray ever receive his big break and get a shot in the UFC, or will Zuffa continue to protect their poster boy from the aptly nicknamed "Taco Terrorizer"?.

Two things:

1. Its hard to catch a big break when you are in jail.

2. "Taco Terrorizer"... I am so glad our soicety has progressed so much since the 1960s. I would love to see Murray walk around the streets of LA, I'm pretty sure a few of those "Tacos" would show him what is up.

Killerinstinct its almost pathetic how you attack Tito and call him all this shit just because you dont like a trash talker. Yet you defend a proven criminal who gives himself a racist nickname because of one lucky bar fight against a drunk.

[HollywoodHogan]

Honestly I don't buy the animosity between Shamrock and Ortiz. You got to remember Ken Shamrock is a pro friggin wrestler at heart. Here is a man who started his carrer in New Japan Pro Wrestling and its subsidiary UWF(pre shoot fighting). As a professional wrestler Ken is really into creating drama; it makes the fight more exciting therefore more draw. But to do this effectively, he and his adversary must like each other and work well in real life. I mean can you imagine working with someone you hate? It's not gonna happen. Plus, how did Tito end up in TNA as a special guest referee if it weren't for Shamrock's connection with TNA?

[Afro]

Originally Posted by HollywoodHogan

Honestly I don't buy the animosity between Shamrock and Ortiz. You got to remember Ken Shamrock is a pro friggin wrestler at heart. Here is a man who started his carrer in New Japan Pro Wrestling and its subsidiary UWF(pre shoot fighting). As a professional wrestler Ken is really into creating drama; it makes the fight more exciting therefore more draw. But to do this effectively, he and his adversary must like each other and work well in real life. I mean can you imagine working with someone you hate? It's not gonna happen. Plus, how did Tito end up in TNA as a special guest referee if it weren't for Shamrock's connection with TNA?

you know what you could be right.