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[roaddawg]

Edgar will simply have to continue his dominance and leave people no choice but to respect him. They dont have to like him (its not a popularity contest).

Hes kinda like AO in K1 I suppose.

[Dr. MMA]

Originally Posted by rivethead

My point on the stuffed take downs--acknowledging that many of them are feints to set up strikes [kind of a reverse GSP, there] was that he landed one out of 5 or 6 legitimate actual attempts. I had probably 10 additional feints that did their job effectively, but his grappling wasn't nearly as effective as it was in the second fight. Again, it's an illustration of how Frankie learned to adapt where Penn simply went in and assumed he had the skills to win a reactive fight.

I am uncertain (until I watch it again and count/score the TD/feints) of how many were legitimate TD attempts and how many were set up as feints. I guess my point was the majority were feints and not TDs which I believe a lot of people counted as TD attempts since he grabbed a hold of BJ. In the end, it really doesn't matter because BJ stuffed most of them (let's say it was 6 stuffed attempts) and only got taken down once. BJ dictated where the fight would go in the first fight but alas the judges tend to score 1 TD >> 6 stuffed attempts. In the mind of judges and a lot of people, that one TD got the reaction of "holy shit, he just took down BJ Penn" and that stuck out more than the rest, which is unfortunate.

The second fight was a whole different story. BJ came in with a dumbass gameplan. He was even successful with the TDs and ground work to a certain degree but abandoned that too. He is so stubborn sometimes, which is the difference between fighters like him and fighters like GSP--the ability to reflect on what's working and what's not and planning accordingly.

Originally Posted by roaddawg

Edgar will simply have to continue his dominance and leave people no choice but to respect him. They dont have to like him (its not a popularity contest).

Hes kinda like AO in K1 I suppose.

In what way is he like AO in K1? Overeem won the K1 grand prix and many are claiming that he is the best fighter of 2010 period. That would include all combat sports. No one is saying that about Edgar right now. Overeem doesn't get shit for his K1 accolades, it's his MMA ones.

So now if you "meant" AO's accolades in MMA, then it still doesn't make any sense. Overeem is on a lot of people's top 10, some people's top 5 and even as high as #1 even though he beat one top 10 in Rogers, who was #10 at the time. Overem has the skills and potential to be in the top 10 but when you look at what he has ACTUALLY DONE, he is on a winning streak against B, C and D level fighters!

Edgar, on the other hand, is #1 on the LW rankings because he is not only on a winning streak but has beaten credible competition including the best LW of all time in BJ Penn who he especially dominated in their 2nd fight. He is deserving of his ranking and yet people dog on him.

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

I am uncertain (until I watch it again and count/score the TD/feints) of how many were legitimate TD attempts and how many were set up as feints. I guess my point was the majority were feints and not TDs which I believe a lot of people counted as TD attempts since he grabbed a hold of BJ. In the end, it really doesn't matter because BJ stuffed most of them (let's say it was 6 stuffed attempts) and only got taken down once. BJ dictated where the fight would go in the first fight but alas the judges tend to score 1 TD >> 6 stuffed attempts. In the mind of judges and a lot of people, that one TD got the reaction of "holy shit, he just took down BJ Penn" and that stuck out more than the rest, which is unfortunate.

The second fight was a whole different story. BJ came in with a dumbass gameplan. He was even successful with the TDs and ground work to a certain degree but abandoned that too. He is so stubborn sometimes, which is the difference between fighters like him and fighters like GSP--the ability to reflect on what's working and what's not and planning accordingly.



In what way is he like AO in K1? Overeem won the K1 grand prix and many are claiming that he is the best fighter of 2010 period. That would include all combat sports. No one is saying that about Edgar right now. Overeem doesn't get shit for his K1 accolades, it's his MMA ones.

So now if you "meant" AO's accolades in MMA, then it still doesn't make any sense. Overeem is on a lot of people's top 10, some people's top 5 and even as high as #1 even though he beat one top 10 in Rogers, who was #10 at the time. Overem has the skills and potential to be in the top 10 but when you look at what he has ACTUALLY DONE, he is on a winning streak against B, C and D level fighters!

Edgar, on the other hand, is #1 on the LW rankings because he is not only on a winning streak but has beaten credible competition including the best LW of all time in BJ Penn who he especially dominated in their 2nd fight. He is deserving of his ranking and yet people dog on him.

I was referring to their public perception. Both of them are highly underestimated despite their recent success. If AO fought Fedor noone would give him a snowballs chance in hell like they did when Edgar fought BJ Penn for the first time.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Dr. MMA

I am uncertain (until I watch it again and count/score the TD/feints) of how many were legitimate TD attempts and how many were set up as feints. I guess my point was the majority were feints and not TDs which I believe a lot of people counted as TD attempts since he grabbed a hold of BJ. In the end, it really doesn't matter because BJ stuffed most of them (let's say it was 6 stuffed attempts) and only got taken down once. BJ dictated where the fight would go in the first fight but alas the judges tend to score 1 TD >> 6 stuffed attempts. In the mind of judges and a lot of people, that one TD got the reaction of "holy shit, he just took down BJ Penn" and that stuck out more than the rest, which is unfortunate.

I think that hits several nails squarely on their heads.
In pure wrestling, one takedown is better than 6 stuffed attempts, because stuffed attempts don't earn any scoring...but in MMA, where effective aggression and effective octagon control are two-out-of-three parts of the foundation for scoring, they should. But a lot of things should happen.

And until that point, BJ was considered un-take-down-able, so it was like the curtain falling in front of the Wizard of Oz or something. Metaphysically, Edgar already scored mad points for simply for not getting dominated as everyone [well, as all not-Penn-haters, anyway] assumed he would, and suddenly he had BJ on his ass? The shock alone won him the round.

The second fight was a whole different story. BJ came in with a dumbass gameplan. He was even successful with the TDs and ground work to a certain degree but abandoned that too. He is so stubborn sometimes, which is the difference between fighters like him and fighters like GSP--the ability to reflect on what's working and what's not and planning accordingly.

Penn is a reactive fighter, I don't think he plans anything further than "I'm going to rely on superior striking or grappling, wherever the fight goes." Even with the takedown--which he made look so easy, it was insanely frustrating that he didn't try to repeat it--he knew he wasn't going to submit Frankie at that point, so he didn't want to bother with anything as pedestrian as simple ground and pound, he figured he could still catch him standing and either hurt him or KO him.

I maintain that Penn has more than enough skill to defeat Frankie. If he has a plan, and is willing to stick to it.

rh