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08-03-2012, 01:36 PM
Location: Where I live? No I ask the questions here
Tim Sylvia And The Unfair Catch 22 Preventing His UFC Return - Bloody Elbow
| Catch 22 - A paradoxical situation in which an individual cannot avoid a problem because of contradictory constraints or rules. Often these situations are such that solving one part of a problem only creates another problem, which ultimately leads back to the original problem. Catch-22s often result from rules, regulations, or procedures that an individual is subject to but has no control over - definition by Wikipedia. |
UFC President Dana White was asked by MMA Fighting's Ariel Helwani after the UFC On Fox 4's Pre Fight press conference, why he essentially vetoed Tim Sylvia's return for a fight in Strikeforce against Daniel Cormier, when according to what Helwani had been hearing a deal was close to being made.
White recounts that Sean Shelby had been 'moving down the road' on a deal with Sylvia, but that neither himself or Lorenzo Fertitta were on board with the idea.
In a media scrum the same day, White elaborated more on what he believes Tim Sylvia needs to do to come back:
A reporter goes on to ask if White has anything personal against Sylvia, which White quickly denies and states while they aren't friends his relationship with Sylvia is no different to many of the fighters who are currently in the UFC.
If Tim Sylvia went out and beat somebody, that it would make sense for him to come back to the UFC, then yeah. You know, I keep hearing stuff, he's won 5 in a row, or how many ever in a row -- whoever knows, I don't know -- but who has he beat, you know? If he beat someone that was worthy of him coming back, then yeah.
While I and many others have no problem with Sylvia being turned down in favor of Frank Mir facing Daniel Cormier, as that is a more relevant and intriguing fight for both men right now in their respective careers, White's logic for Sylvia is flawed and creates an almost impossible situation for the former two time UFC Heavyweight champion.
The problem is, who exactly that isn't in the UFC is considered a good enough scalp for Sylvia to collect to get another shot in the Zuffa owned promotion? Sylvia has won 7 of his last 8 fights, and has won 3 in a row against guys most people wouldn't have heard of, outside Paul Buentello who is largely considered a non-factor at Heavyweight these days, and Polish strongman Mariusz Pudzianowski, which again, means nothing.
Fighting at Heavyweight on the Fuel TV preliminary card for this weekend's UFC on Fox 4 Shogun vs Vera event, is Oli Thompson and Philip de Fries, who had won 5 in a row and 3 in a row respectively against nobodies to get into the UFC. Neither of them are former UFC champions who have been in there with some of the best of all time, and no one is considering either to be the future of the division with recent losses to Shawn Jordan and Stipe Miocic.
By Dana White's logic, Thompson and de Fries should not be in the UFC for the same reasons Sylvia isn't. And if Dana White considers the only Heavyweights of worth Sylvia needs to beat are ones that happen to be under UFC contract, Sylvia will never get the opportunity to fight his way back because of the 'monopoly' of talent UFC has exclusive rights to.
Tim Sylvia is in a catch 22 situation Dana White has created, blackballing Sylvia in the process, while maintaining this false public image of anyone having the ability to work their way toward a UFC contract.
There are many paths to freedom....not all are peaceful.
08-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Status: i smoke trt and fight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Originally Posted by SimpleJack
Do I have this backwards or did the UFC not treat Sylvia with a lot of disrespect before he asked to be released and now pretend like its all his fault.
Not nearly as much as they did to Arlovski but Dana White often called him boring. Sylvia mostly left because of his desire to face Fedor as well as what Tim believed to be was low pay... which of course it was compared to the 800k that Affliction offered him.
Monte Cox is the main reason why Dana White and Lorenzo have such hatred for Timmay. How Monte Cox Ran Tim Sylvia's Career Into the Ground - Bloody Elbow
| How Monte Cox Ran Tim Sylvia's Career Into the Ground |
Tim Sylvia's humiliating loss to Ray Mercer is mostly being discussed in terms of its meaning for Tim's seriously damaged career as a fighter. Not only does this loss brutally damage Sylvia's brand as a top MMA fighter, but in the immediate brass tacks sense, it will probably deprive him of a very nice payday at Affliction Trilogy. The next (and probably final) Affliction show. That's because the California State Athletic Commission will likely not license Sylvia to fight so soon after a brutal KO loss and rightfully so.
It's sad what has happened to Tim Sylvia's career and reputation, but the point that should be discussed is the absolutely awful career management Tim has been getting from Monte Cox.
Monte Cox has a massive conflict of interest as the promoter behind Adrenaline MMA and the manager of several fighters, including Tim Sylvia. Clearly in this case he did not put Tim's interests before his own as the promoter.
If I can quote myself from a few months back when the Sylvia-Mercer fight was announced:
This is pathetic on so many levels. Poor Tim Sylvia, Monte Cox has really painted him into a corner. First he convinced Tim to ask to be released from the UFC where he had had two title runs. Then he was going to headline Adrenaline shows that didn't happen. Then he got paid $800,000 to get demolished by Fedor....
Well, Monte hasn't been all bad to Tim, but let's face facts, when you make $800,000 to get destroyed in 0:36, you've basically taken a big one time cash payment in lieu of a future in MMA.
With his anti-charismatic persona and his long string of cautious, tentative and tedious performances as UFC champ, has to be the formidable athlete with the least brand equity of anyone in MMA.
I would also be remiss if I didn't mention that Sam Caplan was completely correct when he said:
Despite Mercer’s MMA inexperience, he still poses a unique threat to Sylvia. While the heavy-handed Slice felt it was prudent to take Mercer off his feet, Sylvia is not known for taking fights to the ground and instead may attempt to trade punches with a professional boxer that was good enough to win a Gold medal at the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul, South Korea.
At the time I jumped all over Sam, but time will tell and its clear that Sam had a very good point about Ray Mercer and the threat he presented to Tim Sylvia.
However, as long as we're reviving old quotes, let's look at what Big Tim was saying when he quit the UFC to sign with Adrenaline:
"I'll be real active, fighting six or seven times a year," Sylvia said. "Adrenaline is a new company that's just starting up, but they're allowing fighters to fight outside of their organization. That's huge... Take for instance my last fight. Granted, I loss, but I came out of there unhurt and unscathed. I could have fought a week or two later.
"Being 32 years old, I have four or five good years ahead of me. I plan to make the most of it."
And here's what Cox had to say about his plans for Adrenaline:
"It's a chance for me to build an organization," Cox said. "We're not going to come in and be the UFC. Anyone who tries to do that is crazy.
"We're brand new. What we want to do is I want to identify exciting fighters, up-and-coming fighters, and give them a chance to perform on a big stage. And hopefully, we'll gather a big following and someday down the road be doing pay-per-views and such."
But a look at the roster of Adrenaline fighters so far shows a lot more Monte Cox affiliated fighters on the tail end of their careers than up and comers. There is also no indication that the promotion is building a following.
Monte still manages a lot of fighters at the top of the sport including Rich Franklin and Matt Hughes. He also manages up and coming star Eddie Alvarez whose career he has so far guided very well. Although I do worry about the decision to sign with Bellator which seems like a high-risk, low reward option for Alvarez.
It should also be noted that Cox is a veteran of the sport and has done a great deal to build MMA as a promoter and manager. All respect to Mr. Cox for what he has accomplished. But let's call a spade a spade and recognize that Tim Sylvia's career nosedive didn't just happen in the ring and the cage, it happened backstage too.
UPDATE: Zach Arnold opines:
We know what kind of damage this will do for Sylvia’s fighting career. What I am more interested in is seeing how much damage Monte Cox has suffered to his reputation for a) the way he’s managed Tim Sylvia in my opinion and b) putting Sylvia in this kind of position against someone like Mercer, who was having to box in Sweden for the last couple of years. My take is that Cox should not go away from this ordeal unscathed. This whole ordeal is a huge stain on him professionally. Everyone will rightfully rip on Tim, but Monte Cox is the one who deserves the biggest spotlight of public shame here.
Alan Conceicao chimes in with a counter position:
I actually disagree, Zach. Monte did a hell of a job getting Sylvia his payday for the Fedor fight. I mean, really, the guy made more in guaranteed money that night than he had in his previous 8 fights combined in the UFC or something crazy like that. The problem is that Sylvia took the stance afterwards that he was a big money fighter and demanding premier matchups instead of recognizing his placement in the sport and rebuilding. He could have gone to Japan or fought on independent shows like a lot of guys had. Hell, I bet he could have gotten on M-1 Challenge with little effort and picked up some easy Ws. Instead, ego got a hold of him and told him that he could be a world class boxer. He looked at the Klitschkos selling out soccer stadiums and thought he should be doing the same. And that’s what put him in this position. Ultimately though, Cox should have done a better job either talking him out of it or refusing to promote the fight and cut his losses with Timmy. No one is blameless. Hell, Ray Mercer is only here because he didn’t take his boxing career seriously enough when he was in his prime and spent all his money. Maybe if Merciless Ray Mercer had spent more time in the gym and less time audibly trying to throw a fight on camera (Jesse Ferguson), none of this would have happened.
08-03-2012, 07:03 PM
Status: The Geri Curl Warlord
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: with my parents of course
Tim just get signed by Bellator and win the title. Then when the UFC makes you an offer, tell em to shove it. Tim has a chance to build his brand in Bellator, it's true the opposition may not be at the same level as the UFC, but those guys fight fucking hard in those tourneys. Winning a Bellator means more and more after every season of amazingly entertaining fights. Tim could enjoy being the first UFC and Bellator champion and retire with a smile on his face having turned down an offer from Dana and the UFC. That would be the smart thing to do, because going in against guys like Cain, Dos Santos, Overreem, and Cromier is just asking for a humiliating loss and a swift cut from Dana.
You can't process me with a normal brain! ~The Sheen
Scarface: Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, and fuck you, I'm out!
"I don't call the fighting in my films 'violent', I call it 'action'. An action film borders between fantasy and reality. If I were to be completely realistic in my films, you would call me a violent, bloody man. I would simply destroy my opponent by tearing his guts out. I wouldn't do it so artistically." ~Bruce Lee
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