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[mmafan111]

I understand I may get negged here but I'll post my thoughts regardless:

Shogun has never looked impressive in the UFC, he has fought well against Lyoto and Chuck but looked horrific against Griffin and Coleman. He fought with tremendous heart against Hendo but has never looked like the intense, fast paced, aggressive machine he was in Pride.

Granted he cannot do stomps or knees to the head, however, his MT is high level and his BJJnis meant to be high level, IMO he should be whooping people.

His problem seems to be the gas tank, plus his inability to turn up the heat and unleash the relentless fury and knees he once did in Pride.

I also feel Wandy has the same issues, although his chin has also gone, he has never shown the crazy pace he used to set in Pride.

Big Nog looks slow as hell in the Octagon, Crocop looked like shit, Fedor wasn"t as dominant in the US, the pride fighters seemed to struggle in the US in general, the top fighters have shown it more IMO.

This makes me think, why are these fighters looking so much slower, less aggressive, generally have less stamina?

I really do wonder what the fighters were taking in Pride, in the form of supplements, PED's etc as this IMO can be the only reason we are seeing massive changes in performance.

Take a recent example, the mammoth Shane Carwin, who got busted for roids, this was handled really well by the UFC media team and lawyers, there was no fuss and it got swept under the covers, Carwin came back but was distinctly smaller in size than before.

If this can happen to a UFC main eventer in a country where drug tests happen regularly then can you think what was going on in the massively unregulated PRIDE organisation?

Note: this is merely my opinion, there are no facts to support what I am suggesting other than a drop in fighters performances

Also, if anyone has any test result data that makes my points invalid then please share with me and I will apologise for my ignorance with regards to any such data!

[Pasha K]

Originally Posted by mmafan111

I understand I may get negged here but I'll post my thoughts regardless:

Shogun has never looked impressive in the UFC, he has fought well against Lyoto and Chuck but looked horrific against Griffin and Coleman. He fought with tremendous heart against Hendo but has never looked like the intense, fast paced, aggressive machine he was in Pride.

Granted he cannot do stomps or knees to the head, however, his MT is high level and his BJJnis meant to be high level, IMO he should be whooping people.

His problem seems to be the gas tank, plus his inability to turn up the heat and unleash the relentless fury and knees he once did in Pride.

I also feel Wandy has the same issues, although his chin has also gone, he has never shown the crazy pace he used to set in Pride.

Big Nog looks slow as hell in the Octagon, Crocop looked like shit, Fedor wasn"t as dominant in the US, the pride fighters seemed to struggle in the US in general, the top fighters have shown it more IMO.

This makes me think, why are these fighters looking so much slower, less aggressive, generally have less stamina?

I really do wonder what the fighters were taking in Pride, in the form of supplements, PED's etc as this IMO can be the only reason we are seeing massive changes in performance.

Take a recent example, the mammoth Shane Carwin, who got busted for roids, this was handled really well by the UFC media team and lawyers, there was no fuss and it got swept under the covers, Carwin came back but was distinctly smaller in size than before.

If this can happen to a UFC main eventer in a country where drug tests happen regularly then can you think what was going on in the massively unregulated PRIDE organisation?

Note: this is merely my opinion, there are no facts to support what I am suggesting other than a drop in fighters performances

Also, if anyone has any test result data that makes my points invalid then please share with me and I will apologise for my ignorance with regards to any such data!

Ok first of all I think that UFC fighters use as much ilegal stuff as fighters in Pride did. It is BS to say "only the ones that get caught use PEDs, the others are clean". Only the dumb ones get busted.

Secondly, you mention Big Nog, Shogun, Crocop, Fedor, Wandy as examples of people that do not look as good as they looked back in 2005.
Actually there are very very few fighters that were at Top in 2005 and are still in the Top today.
It is impossible to be on the same level for many years, specially if you have had surgeries or bad injuries. Age is catching up, motivation is not the same.
Also a very very important factor that people underestimate is that fighting in a ring and fighting in a cage are 2 very different things. Pride rules and UFC rules are very different too.
And still, Big Nog won the UFC title, Shogun won the UFC title, Crocop has been the toughest challenge of JDS so far, Fedor destroyed two former HW champions in a combined time of 4 minutes, Wandy win or lose always bring a war.

Also you do not mention PRIDE fighters like Anderson Silva, like Dan Henderson, like Werdum.

I do not have doubts that many fighters in Pride used PEDs, but many of the UFC fighters do the same thing.

Why Crocop looked very bad in UFC?
I think that the main reason was that he was not motivated anymore. He just came from winning the PRIDE belt, it was his biggest dream and after many failed attempts, he finally won it.
Secondly he has had surgeries, and that affect a lot your performace.
Thirdly competition is getting better everytime, in UFC everybody knew about his LHK and they found a strategy to avoid it. Also, (and that was also very notorious in his Pride days) Mirko feels very comfortable when he is the predator. But when someone actually attacks him non stop, he feels very uncomfortable and becomes much more vulnerable.
Also fighting at 35 years old is not the same thing as fighting when you are in your 20s.

Wandy has been in so many wars, his chin is gone.
Same thing that has happened with Crocop...competition has became much better. And people now know how to defend from someone that goes very very wild at you. Rampage Jackson and Leben knocked him out, Wandy realizes that the UFC fighters are not the Jap fighters from pride that do not know what to do when they get attacked. He is now much more passive. Also he is like 36 years old, he will retire soon.
Even with all those disadvantages, he has been in many great fights. Has defeated Bisping, almost defeated Rich Franklin last month.

Big Nog, same thing. He has received way too much damage. His chin is not of iron anymore.
And still it is not that he looks like shit. In some fights he looked horrible, but in other fights he does not look bad. He almost finished Frank Mir.

Better competition, age, damage received in previous fights, different rules, injuries/surgeries. To me, those are the reasons of why the biggest stars of PRIDE do not look that good in the UFC.

[Kimbo> Rampage]

Yes... As with guys like Hunt, Nelson, Hendo, etc...

If you have a good chin and can take a shot... Some fighters seem to rely on that and mind taking big shots in order to get their own in. That is great for their career, most of the time... but can have negative affects in the long run.

[mmafan111]

Pashak, I totally agree with you, the UFC fighters will be using PED's as well, however they will need to cycle on and off, I think in Pride they we able to constantly use the PED's, which meant the fighters were stronger, had more stamina and could keep up a more intense pace.

I agree that the fighters I mentioned all went on and achieved great things apart from Wandy but aside from Shogun, they were not fighting great fighters IMO, Nog beat Sylvia who was pretty lacklustre and Nog had to hold the glove to perform the sweep, which is against the rules I think, I think Big Country was a harder fight for JDS than crocop and Fedor beat a glass jawed Arlovski and Tim at a time where the UFC HW's were shit.

I didn't mention Anderson, Hendo or Werdum as I feel thy have improved after leaving Pride, Anderson is now the GOAT IMO, Hendo, although now using TRT, is proving that age is not an excuse for performance drop and Werdum is looking more and more like one of the most dangerous Heavyweights in the world.

But you do make some good points, I guess we will see over the next 5 years how much age can affect the longevity in the sport, with elite fighters like Aldo, GSP, Jones and JDS getting on a bit.

IMO, get the VADA testing in ASAP, get the sport fully regulated and remove as much of the PED's as possible to ensure we get to see who really are the best fighters.

Anyway, PED rant over!

[Sakara=Excitement]

Originally Posted by Pasha K

Why Crocop looked very bad in UFC?
I think that the main reason was that he was not motivated anymore. He just came from winning the PRIDE belt, it was his biggest dream and after many failed attempts, he finally won it.

Secondly he has had surgeries, and that affect a lot your performace.
Thirdly competition is getting better everytime, in UFC everybody knew about his LHK and they found a strategy to avoid it. Also, (and that was also very notorious in his Pride days) Mirko feels very comfortable when he is the predator. But when someone actually attacks him non stop, he feels very uncomfortable and becomes much more vulnerable.

Also fighting at 35 years old is not the same thing as fighting when you are in your 20s.

I may be wrong, you probably know better than I do Pashak but wasn't Cro Cop very anti cage training when he was coming in to the UFC and never fully adopted training in a cage?

Also I've heard in that fight against Gonzaga, Cro Cop didn't train for elbows on the ground and he never recovered from that huge one in the 1st round.

[SimpleJack]

Crocop had a perfect storm of negatives, lack of preparation for a cage, over-reliance on the lhk, constant focus on the ground game, age, and outside activities. Didn't he once simply admit that fighting wasn't his top priority as well?

[Sniggles]

Shogun has left his prime, that is without a doubt. But, he is not at the point of having to retire. Fuck that douchebaggery.

[ichibabythecancrushe]

the article makes it look like shogun's been beat to hell and i don't think he's taken so much damage to retire aside from his bad ass knees. im with sniggles its almost like he wrote the article as if he was gone lose then said fuck it send it anyway

[Goremire]

Just a thought on the performance of PRIDE fighters, I think it's difficult to pin down to any one reason why (arguably) they haven't been as successful.

I have wondered on occasion what would have happened to the Coutures, Ortizs, Hughes and Franklins of the UFC if the reverse had happened, and they had been forced to move to Japan and compete in a ring. How would they have adjusted to knees to the head on the ground, a 10 minute first round, yellow cards and the inability to ground and pound with elbows? We'll never know of course, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

As for Nog's chin, I think that started to go when Herring dropped that high-kick nuke on him. The fact that Nog survived that and went on to win is almost as unbelievable as Herring's complete lack of interest in following him to the ground and finishing him. I know he was super wary of Nog's guard, but two solid hammer fists and the history of the UFC heavyweight division post-PRIDE merger could have been vastly different.

[AnchorPunch]

i think there's actually two threads underlying the shogun debate:
1. has he taken enough damage to warrant concern about brain damage and hope for retirement?
2. has he taken substantially more than other fighters?

there's a lot of good evidence provided by the board that (2) probably isn't the case. but, realistically, when you consider training, the recent wars, the fact that major brain trauma like he undoubtedly took in the hendo fight takes perhaps a year to heal... well, honestly there's a good argument for (1).

i always have mixed feelings cheering for someone whose tenure all but guarantees brain damage and who seems to be taking increasing volumes of damage in recent fights. i love watching shogun fight but would be equally happy to know that he'd be a healthy, happy, 80 year old.