MMA News Forums » MMA Forums » General MMA Forum

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by dimerules28

Fucking love this post... I've said it once and I'll say it again... TRT is a PERFORMACE ENHANCING DRUG... It seems like most of you guys are just a bunch of hendo fans... Let's say it was Tito fighting for the title and he just destroyed strike farce and shogun after he began a TRT program... What would you guys think of that.

Well, Ive read your post about 3 times now, and Im still not entirely sure what your trying to say... but lets see if I can translate it to english for you.

You think TRT is a performance enhancing drug, and that by following the rules laid out by the athletic comissions, everyone who doesnt jump up and crucify Henderson for working within the rules of his sport is a blind fan. Also, I think you're saying that if Tito did what Henderson did, what would we think of his accomplishments. Am I close?

Ok, last bit first. I dont care if its Henderson, Ortiz, Liddell, Coleman, Gracie, or fu*king Achilles himself, its been an impressive run. The fact that it is Dan Henderson, arguably the best p4p fighter ever to grace the sport, makes it so much sweeter.

And NO, I dont have a problem with TRT usage, NO MATTER WHO IT IS. If they apply for an exemption, and are granted it, more power to them. As long as the tests come back clean, and at normal levels, whats the problem?

If you want to be technical about it, everything is a "performance enhancing drug". An asthmatic using an inhaler is "enhancing" the "performance" of his lungs. Does that mean you oppose his/her right to breathe? How dare they!!

In conclusion, its allowed, get over it.

[dimerules28]

Originally Posted by Sniggles

Most of us guys have a brain.

Hendo has never tested above normal levels. Testosterone Replacement Therapy is not about pumping testosterone levels to new heights. It is used to make a male's hormone levels the equivalent of the average man's.

It is only used when an athlete is producing deficient levels of hormones.

Lol or maybe your just gullible... Where are the stats that prove what your saying is true?? There's nowhere that we can go to see what hendos levels during training camp wich means everything... And just because it's meant for a certain purpose means hendo isn't abusing it??? Lol Comon use that brain that you were just talking about... And you also ignored the main point that I keep repeating... TRT enhances your performance end of story son

[dimerules28]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

Well, Ive read your post about 3 times now, and Im still not entirely sure what your trying to say... but lets see if I can translate it to english for you.

You think TRT is a performance enhancing drug, and that by following the rules laid out by the athletic comissions, everyone who doesnt jump up and crucify Henderson for working within the rules of his sport is a blind fan. Also, I think you're saying that if Tito did what Henderson did, what would we think of his accomplishments. Am I close?

Ok, last bit first. I dont care if its Henderson, Ortiz, Liddell, Coleman, Gracie, or fu*king Achilles himself, its been an impressive run. The fact that it is Dan Henderson, arguably the best p4p fighter ever to grace the sport, makes it so much sweeter.

And NO, I dont have a problem with TRT usage, NO MATTER WHO IT IS. If they apply for an exemption, and are granted it, more power to them. As long as the tests come back clean, and at normal levels, whats the problem?

If you want to be technical about it, everything is a "performance enhancing drug". An asthmatic using an inhaler is "enhancing" the "performance" of his lungs. Does that mean you oppose his/her right to breathe? How dare they!!

In conclusion, its allowed, get over it.

So if Tito started using TRT right before the bader fight won that ko'd nog and ko'd Forrest and now is fighting for the title you would be ok with that?

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by dimerules28

So if Tito started using TRT right before the bader fight won that ko'd nog and ko'd Forrest and now is fighting for the title you would be ok with that?

yep. In fact, I'll go a step farther, and say that if Fedor, who is probably my least favourite fighter in existence, hopped out of M1, and rode the TRT train right to JDS, Id be fine with that too. Id be rooting like hell for cigano, but would have no problems with the fight. Why? BECAUSE ITS WITHIN THE RULES.

[Kimbo> Rampage]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

You guys know that TRT isnt against the rules right? Its actually allowed by the comissions, if you apply for and receive an exemption.

Yes we all know that... That is exactly the problem. With a TUE you are legally allowed to get inject-able synthetic testosterone... It would be foolish to not see that as performance enhancing...

With their testing polices and procedures, there is a lot to be desired... but if the fighter is within allowable levels(which isnt even average per say) come fight time, then it is fine...

There needs to be more extensive tests done year round on TRT fighters... The training camp is where all the work is done and where the results come from. If someone is abusing during that period, it is just as bad, if not worse than fighting with elevated levels.

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

BECAUSE ITS WITHIN THE RULES.

Sometimes the rules need to be questioned... There is a reason so many fans, media members, and fighters are so vocal on this topic...

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by rampage9712

Yes we all know that... That is exactly the problem. With a TUE you are legally allowed to get inject-able synthetic testosterone... It would be foolish to not see that as performance enhancing...

With their testing polices and procedures, there is a lot to be desired... but if the fighter is within allowable levels(which isnt even average per say) come fight time, then it is fine...

There needs to be more extensive tests done year round on TRT fighters... The training camp is where all the work is done and where the results come from. If someone is abusing during that period, it is just as bad, if not worse than fighting with elevated levels.


Sometimes the rules need to be questioned... There is a reason so many fans, media members, and fighters are so vocal on this topic...

Ok, if you want to go that route, why stop with just "TRT fighters"? why not test all fighters all year round? Id be willing to bet a lot less "TRT fighters" pissed hot then fighters without exemptions.

Also, since when have fans, media members, and fighters needed an excuse to be vocal about something?

[Kimbo> Rampage]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

Ok, if you want to go that route, why stop with just "TRT fighters"? why not test all fighters all year round? Id be willing to bet a lot less "TRT fighters" pissed hot then fighters without exemptions.

Also, since when have fans, media members, and fighters needed an excuse to be vocal about something?

That would be good as well. I was more referring to during their camp, once the fight is legally signed by the AC. But yes the more testing the better.

And why would a TRT fighter need to take any other PED, they are legally on synthetic testosterone... and have a 6/1 ratio range to play with...

Originally Posted by Sniggles

I have made the argument before about the T/E ratio. If TRT is going to be allowed they should test both the ng/ml of testosterone as well as the T/E ratio. These tests should be given by the commission and paid for by the fighter if he chooses to apply for the exemption.

If the allowance is 4:1 T/E ratio while the average is 1:1, there is alot of room for abuse due to insufficient tests being done on the athlete. I believe there is insufficient testing on these fights as whole but in this particular issue, there needs to be two tests done to find out the legitimacy of the treatment rather than only one. The reason why only one is being done is because of cost. The commission would rather have more money for salaries than additional testing. Greed is more important than the purity of the sport.

Agree

[joeodd2]

I'm curious do most athletes have a 1:1 ratio to begin with, what about those who naturally have a 3:1 or 4:1 level? Nature isn't always fair. So maybe the 6:1 range is meant to include athletes who naturally develop more? It would make more sense. So far Hendo has been the only fighter on TRT who had proven to be successful. And he was the man before he was on it. I don't see any other fighters on TRT dominating the sport right now.....and after Hendo loses to Jones, I think the TRT stock will fall considerably. Fact is that it does nothing for fighters other than make them feel normal for their age. Hendo did not look like he was 20 in the shogun fight.....

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by rampage9712

I agree with this...

Too many times people compare normal people to fighters... It is very different when you are in a physical competition... much less a combat sport.

Well, if you shouldn't use anything for enhancement, then forget about vitamins or medicine when you're sick or injured. In fact, throw out a good, balanced diet, because normal people don't eat that shit. All fighters get issued burgers, fries and tacobellyaches. Caught with spinach? 6 month suspension.

And Roy Nelson is the only one whose performance isn't dramatically impacted.

Originally Posted by rampage9712

In Nevada you can have a 6/1 ratio... far above the normal or average...

I'm going to try to dumb this down, because people just aren't getting it. I'm not going to bother to try to represent actual scores, because I'm going to try to keep the math as simple as possible.

First: everyone produces testosterone and epitestosterone naturally in their bodies. Quite often, the ratio for this T/E production is 1:1. BUT NOT ALWAYS. Different people produce at a different rate, and some people can produce T at a level of over 5x the E level--again, this is completely natural, without supplements. And the same individual can produce different levels at different times. This is why the Olympic Commission, after exhaustive studies allow for a ratio below 6:1. Are you with me so far?

Ok, here's the math part. Lets say that when I was 19, I produced 100units of T and 100 units of E. That's a 1:1 ratio. But fast forward, and pretend I'm 37, and I'm only naturally producing 5 units of T and 5 of E. That sucks. I'm going to get something done about it. So I go to a doctor and she tells me that normal T production for a guy my age should be around 30, and that she can effectively put me back to normal in my age group in a few short weeks. I'll feel better, etc. So I do the treatment, and I shoot up to 30 with the help of modern chemistry.

HOWEVER, my natural Epitestosterone levels remain at the level they were before I began treatment. So 30 T [normal for my hypothetical age] and 5E levels give me a 6:1 ratio. I'm good to go by Nevada...but at no point am I approaching the levels that I'd produce when I was 19.

Does that make more sense?

If TRT is abused, it's a PED, no doubt, no question. If it's used correctly, its no more of an illegal advantage than taking vitamins or antibiotics, getting arthroscopic surgery to remove fluid from a joint.

At this point, there is no indication that Henderson has ever abused anything. If you're going to make assumptions about what he's doing in camp, you might as well make the same assumptions that Jones is juicing and using a masking agent, unless you're a hypocrite.

rh

[Cat--Smasher]

Medical Beat: What are T/E ratios? And why do cutoff limits vary? (Updated) | MMAjunkie.com

Statistics reveal that a ratio of up to 3.7:1 will capture 95 percent of all normal men, and a ratio of up to 5:1 will capture greater than 99 percent of all men. That's why the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) allows up to 4:1 (so its test is at least 95 percent accurate) and the Nevada State Athletic Commission, the NCAA and some others allow up to 6:1 (for 99 percent accuracy). The whole goal is to not label someone a cheater when he or she isn't. (Very, very rarely, some people are just freakishly high, but they have a ratio of less than 6:1).