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[1inthechamber]

On another note, I also see Cormier making most ppls p4p list soon if he stays healthy and improving how he has lately

[Rise]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Aldo and Edgar are both more skilled, without question. I could make arguments for others, but I don't have time this morning.

rh

Seen as you are talking all time and not current I can understand your ranking a little more. As much as I love Frankie though I don't see him as being more skilled.

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

we talking all time, or active? Cain jumps immediately to mind, JDS as well, Hendo ranks higher...

While I can see JDS being in the argument but I think Jones has done more so far in his career with a more impressive resume of wins. All time I'd probably put Hendo ahead of him but currently he is not.

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by Rise

Seen as you are talking all time and not current I can understand your ranking a little more. As much as I love Frankie though I don't see him as being more skilled.



While I can see JDS being in the argument but I think Jones has done more so far in his career with a more impressive resume of wins. All time I'd probably put Hendo ahead of him but currently he is not.

I would put JDS beating Cain over any of jones' wins, and hendo has looked like a fighter 15 years younger then he is against BIGGER fighters.

Lets be honest here. The only impressive win for Jones so far in my opinion was the machida victory. Shogun looked like Ninja, Rampage hasnt been a fighter since Forrest told him, and Rashaad stood there, and watched jones for 3.5 rounds. As for the Vitor fight, meh. I havent watched it, and cant be bothered.. Jones and Bisping on the same card.. thats about as entertaining to me as a herpes flare-up.

[Kimbo> Rampage]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

I would put JDS beating Cain over any of jones' wins

Im huge on Cain, So I can see how you would put that as big as any of Jones's wins... But over guys like Machida, Evans, Rampage, Shogun... Dont know about that..

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

hendo has looked like a fighter 15 years younger

No comment

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

BIGGER fighters.

Yes, because Fedor, Feijao, and Bablu are huge, Dan didnt belong in there with any of them...

If they were all in top shape, none of those guys would even be Big LHW's...

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

Lets be honest here. The only impressive win for Jones so far in my opinion was the machida victory. Shogun looked like Ninja, Rampage hasnt been a fighter since Forrest told him, and Rashaad stood there, and watched jones for 3.5 rounds. As for the Vitor fight, meh. I havent watched it, and cant be bothered.. Jones and Bisping on the same card.. thats about as entertaining to me as a herpes flare-up.

Jones made Shogun look like that... Shogun was actually very aggressive and thew some good kicks at Jones... Problem is that was his downfall. He was thrown on his ass as soon as he closed in and Jones caught his kicks... That may be the reason why other fighters choose not to be ultra aggressive with Jones, It hasnt worked out for the best with his past opponents.

And because you dont like Jones or Bisping you dont find their fights interesting?

Your missing out, 2 of the more exciting fighters out there.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Rise

Seen as you are talking all time and not current I can understand your ranking a little more. As much as I love Frankie though I don't see him as being more skilled.

Frankie is a better grappler, has better striking, and better transitions. And he doesn't rely on size.

While I can see JDS being in the argument but I think Jones has done more so far in his career with a more impressive resume of wins. All time I'd probably put Hendo ahead of him but currently he is not.

Focusing on wins is how incredibly bad rankings actually ranked Fitch as p4p at one point--given that he's stunningly one dimensional and an enormous WW who routinely employs size to win...it's a terrible premise.

Focus purely on skills, with an understanding of how they'd be employed with or without a size advantage, and you'd be closer to a traditional, purist definition. Which differs tremendously from the current flavor-of-the-month MMA definition.

rh

[Kimbo> Rampage]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Frankie is a better grappler, has better striking, and better transitions. And he doesn't rely on size.

Technically speaking... maybe, but Jones is much more dangerous of finishing both standing and on the ground. His opponents fear getting taken down. He has some good pop behind his strikes...

so P4P= Skill?

So lets put someone like Bisping ahead of guys like Hendo and JDS while were at it...

Originally Posted by rivethead

Focusing on wins is how incredibly bad rankings actually ranked Fitch as p4p at one point--given that he's stunningly one dimensional and an enormous WW who routinely employs size to win...it's a terrible premise.

Focus purely on skills, with an understanding of how they'd be employed with or without a size advantage, and you'd be closer to a traditional, purist definition. Which differs tremendously from the current flavor-of-the-month MMA definition.

rh

If a fighter is able to make weight, their shouldnt be an issue. Why just focus on size, but not focus on other talents like speed, power, chin, cardio ability, etc.

Jones, GSP, Anderson, and Cruz are all pretty big for their weight class... lets throw them all out of the P4P discussion as well.

Fitch is actually one of the more skilled MMA fighters out there... He avoids getting submitted because he has a good BJJ game, and can land his takedowns because he has solid technical striking to set up his takedowns. He doesnt get KTFO in every fight...

But he doesnt have the power, speed, explosiveness, reflexes of some fighters.

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio

What the fuck is this?

It's Michonne from The Walking Dead which airs again this Sunday. She is one of the more popular if not the most popular character in the comics.

She basically owns the shit out of zombies armed only with a sword. Believe it or not the 2 zombies next to her I believe is her brother and boyfriend or some shit.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by rampage9712

Technically speaking... maybe, but Jones is much more dangerous of finishing both standing and on the ground. His opponents fear getting taken down. He has some good pop behind his strikes...

pound for pound is about skill vs. skill. Jones is dangerous because of his size. I know you can't get over that, but that's how it goes.

so P4P= Skill?

Always has been.

So lets put someone like Bisping ahead of guys like Hendo and JDS while were at it...

Typical poor assessment of skills for all three fighters mentioned, but it's what I've come to expect from you.

If a fighter is able to make weight, their shouldnt be an issue. Why just focus on size, but not focus on other talents like speed, power, chin, cardio ability, etc.

Because weight is fucking nonsense. You're getting fighters cutting 30lbs and coming in two weightclasses above their weigh in in many cases.

And because pound for pound is automatically tied in to size. If all fighters were the same size, how would that effect their chin, their power, their cardio, etc. ??? You simply repeat the same nonsense every time this comes up, but you've never bothered to try to answer this.

So let me guess, you're going to counter with "how would we know how Jones is going to fight if he didn't routinely have a double-digit reach advantage? He might do something entirely different" or some such bullshit.

Well, we assess with the information that we already have. It's subjective, but it's at least empirical. Pretending that Jones would do something entirely different throws out any of the actual objective information that we already have.

Jones, GSP, Anderson, and Cruz are all pretty big for their weight class... lets throw them all out of the P4P discussion as well.

Do you not get that I'm not saying you can't be big and skilled? What is your disconnect?

I'm saying fighters can indeed be big and skilled. I'm saying Jones is less skilled and covers it by being more big. Not all fighters, not everyone commonly discussed as p4p. Just Jones. less skills, more size advantage.

Fitch is actually one of the more skilled MMA fighters out there... He avoids getting submitted because he has a good BJJ game, and can land his takedowns because he has solid technical striking to set up his takedowns. He doesnt get KTFO in every fight...

But he doesnt have the power, speed, explosiveness, reflexes of some fighters.

Spoken like someone who still doesn't understand what p4p means.

Once again, thanks for letting your ignorance prove my point.

rh

[Rise]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

I would put JDS beating Cain over any of jones' wins, and hendo has looked like a fighter 15 years younger then he is against BIGGER fighters.

Lets be honest here. The only impressive win for Jones so far in my opinion was the machida victory. Shogun looked like Ninja, Rampage hasnt been a fighter since Forrest told him, and Rashaad stood there, and watched jones for 3.5 rounds. As for the Vitor fight, meh. I havent watched it, and cant be bothered.. Jones and Bisping on the same card.. thats about as entertaining to me as a herpes flare-up.

While I would say the Cain win for JDS ranks as high as anything Jones has done. I think the overall quality of opponent favours Jones I think being able to neutralize Rashad into doing nothing should be considered somewhat impressive.

Originally Posted by rivethead

Frankie is a better grappler, has better striking, and better transitions. And he doesn't rely on size.

I'll give you that Frankie has better boxing but not overall striking as he doesn't use kicks and elbows to the degree Jones does. I think Frankie has great transitions into take downs but he doesn't control his opponent well on the ground in comparison to Jones.

Focusing on wins is how incredibly bad rankings actually ranked Fitch as p4p at one point--given that he's stunningly one dimensional and an enormous WW who routinely employs size to win...it's a terrible premise.

Focus purely on skills, with an understanding of how they'd be employed with or without a size advantage, and you'd be closer to a traditional, purist definition. Which differs tremendously from the current flavor-of-the-month MMA definition.

It's very hard to say how skilled someone is without a physical gift though cause all the fighters have them to some degree. I agree skill set comes first and foremost but you also develop that skill set based on your physical abilities. Jones uses skills that take advantage of his reach it's only natural to do that. When Jones first came in look at the difference to his game plan he relied more heavily on wrestling and ground and pound which he was pretty effective with at the time.

While I don't think Jones has the best striking or even wrestling out there but I think when you mix all his skills together he is a little better then where I see you ranking him.

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by rivethead

And because pound for pound is automatically tied in to size.
rh

So in essence a fighter like Jon Jones will never be considered p4p no matter what he does because the likelihood of him fighting at a physical disadvantage is highly unlikely unless he moves up to hw and fights someone silly like Struve whose not even a top contender.

Damn it sure does suck to be big despite it being a variable no fighter can do anything about.

P4P discussions are usually submerged in so much subjectivity its damn near meaningless.