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[rivethead]

Originally Posted by roaddawg

So in essence a fighter like Jon Jones will never be considered p4p no matter what he does because the likelihood of him fighting at a physical disadvantage is highly unlikely unless he moves up to hw and fights someone silly like Struve whose not even a top contender.

Damn it sure does suck to be big despite it being a variable no fighter can do anything about.

P4P discussions are usually submerged in so much subjectivity its damn near meaningless.

Not at all. Jones has to tighten up the holes in his game to the level that Georges, Anderson, Aldo, Cain and Edgar have. If you look back, when Georges first started to emerge as a p4p contender, he had HORRIBLE striking defense. He had great GnP, but couldn't pass an elite guard to save his life. When GSP fanboys were touting him as the very best, these are things that were discussed, in addition to his size advantage. Georges addressed them.
Jones probably will as well, but throwing him up there right now is premature and shows a lack of understanding of how the concept has been employed traditionally.

Your perception is more of the same "don't penalize a guy because he's big" adage. It's not a penalty to simply not give a fighter the same accolades he wins within his division.

rh

[roaddawg]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Not at all. Jones has to tighten up the holes in his game to the level that Georges, Anderson, Aldo, Cain and Edgar have. If you look back, when Georges first started to emerge as a p4p contender, he had HORRIBLE striking defense. He had great GnP, but couldn't pass an elite guard to save his life. When GSP fanboys were touting him as the very best, these are things that were discussed, in addition to his size advantage. Georges addressed them.
Jones probably will as well, but throwing him up there right now is premature and shows a lack of understanding of how the concept has been employed traditionally.

Your perception is more of the same "don't penalize a guy because he's big" adage. It's not a penalty to simply not give a fighter the same accolades he wins within his division.

rh

Can you elaborate more on the holes in his game? From your end what do you think Jon needs to work on as far as in-ring performance? Mentally we all know he is still a fetus in the mma realm.

Personally I believe he has a weakness with his defense in standup (ie slipping punches, little to no head movement). Also I have a feeling his jj defense might be suspect but luckily for him he has his wrestling and size advantage to counter.

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by Rise

While I would say the Cain win for JDS ranks as high as anything Jones has done. I think the overall quality of opponent favours Jones I think being able to neutralize Rashad into doing nothing should be considered somewhat impressive.

I saw that fight more as rashaad's lack of action losing that fight, more then anything jones did winning it. Thats why I dont see it as a "high value win".. Had the rashaad that fought forrest showed up, I think that fight would have gone a lot differently. Had Jones beat _that_ rashaad, it would shine a lot brighter.

[1inthechamber]

I have a hard time seeing anything special from Jones that would label him a great. His best skill is his gnp and even that is due to how long his arms are to where he can throw some really nasty elbows in the guard. His striking his about average, his striking defense sucks.

People trash Edgar but forget he's mostly fought way bigger guys than him. Its not gonna be easy finishing opponents when he's the "little guy". He has some of the best boxing and footwork in the game, the way he constantly changes his angles, his levels is good. Give Edgar a size advantage like Jones and there you will see some great finishes.

This whole deal with Jones also doing that imo dirty push kick to the knee and elbowing opponents in the throat is pretty sad. No doubt he will get better but to consider him a "great" or top 3 p4p with Silva and Gsp is premature when he is pretty much banking his wins mainly off his physical advantages and athleticism, not much skill.

[Rise]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

I saw that fight more as rashaad's lack of action losing that fight, more then anything jones did winning it. Thats why I dont see it as a "high value win".. Had the rashaad that fought forrest showed up, I think that fight would have gone a lot differently. Had Jones beat _that_ rashaad, it would shine a lot brighter.

I think Rashad had alot of respect for what Jones can do and was tentative because of it. He didn;t seem to want to try alot of things that he normally would cause I think from training with Jones he knew the results wouldn't be in his favour. Rashad had no respect for any danger that Forrest would present hence the reason he ran him over the way he did.

I certainly would have liked to see Rashad have been more aggressive in that fight (as well as Jones) though.

[CtGreat]

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

I saw that fight more as rashaad's lack of action losing that fight, more then anything jones did winning it. Thats why I dont see it as a "high value win".. Had the rashaad that fought forrest showed up, I think that fight would have gone a lot differently. Had Jones beat _that_ rashaad, it would shine a lot brighter.

Are you kidding me? Watch the Evans vs Forrest fight again. Evans didn't do a single significant thing until he knocked Forrest down. He disnt attempt a single takedown the entire fight, and he seemed content to stand against the cage and get picked appart. That was a horrible fight for Evans, but a glorious ending for him. He looked much better against Jones.

As a onetime giant Evans fan, I was very upset about his performance against Griffen

[W.Silva>C.Norris]

Originally Posted by CtGreat

Are you kidding me? Watch the Evans vs Forrest fight again. Evans didn't do a single significant thing until he knocked Forrest down. He disnt attempt a single takedown the entire fight, and he seemed content to stand against the cage and get picked appart. That was a horrible fight for Evans, but a glorious ending for him. He looked much better against Jones.

As a onetime giant Evans fan, I was very upset about his performance against Griffen

As I recall, he countered quite effectively against forrest, and made forrest, who had just picked apart rampage, look slow and weak. He blasted forrest.

Against Jones, he stood there and watched the effing fight after the 1st round. it was pathetic. I was coming around on rashaad before that loss.

[optimusjoel]

Originally Posted by CtGreat

Are you kidding me? Watch the Evans vs Forrest fight again. Evans didn't do a single significant thing until he knocked Forrest down. He disnt attempt a single takedown the entire fight, and he seemed content to stand against the cage and get picked appart. That was a horrible fight for Evans, but a glorious ending for him. He looked much better against Jones.

As a onetime giant Evans fan, I was very upset about his performance against Griffen

I was thinking the same thing, I had money on Rashad and couldn't believe he was losing the way he was. I thought for sure he would have shot for atleast one takedown.
I also think if he was more aggressive against Jones he would have gotten finished.

[Kimbo> Rampage]

So Jon Fitch is one of the more skilled fighters... You say P4P is purely based on skill, yet cry foul when he was a high ranked P4P fighter...

And how the hell would we even determine "same size"... its impossible...

If GSP was 6'5 and had 84 inch reach, with his relative muscle mass, he would be the size of an NFL DE, a huge HW.

Chin, Power, Speed, and the other talents fall under skill?

Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris

As I recall, he countered quite effectively against forrest, and made forrest, who had just picked apart rampage, look slow and weak. He blasted forrest.

Against Jones, he stood there and watched the effing fight after the 1st round. it was pathetic. I was coming around on rashaad before that loss.

Forrest didnt pick rampage apart with his hands... He landed a ton of leg kicks.

That is what happens when a fighter knows how to utilize his reach... Funny how so many guys seem to be "sitting around waiting for Jones on the outside" when they fight him... They dont get to choose to come inside, its up to Jon to make a mistake in order for them to get inside his reach.