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[Bork_Lazer]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Munoz has been dismissed by people who don't want to see Anderson face Chris as overrated. He's been criticized by soares, Bisping, and a bunch of clowns on the internet. All of those opinions are ridiculously biased, and none of them matter, unless you're dumb enough to believe them.


Inactivity + a dedicated campaign to remove Weidman from contention by slandering a great win. It's a perfect storm of bullshit that nobody smart will get caught out in.

Back to the point 'Joel made about 'lazer being mistaken:
It doesn't matter how long you've been watching MMA, if you assume that Munoz is done after one fight, if you assume that Weidman will fade into obscurity simply because he loses to Anderson, you really don't know what you're talking about.

The longevity of your interest, the size of your DVD collection, the amount of time you spend in the gym does not always equate to understanding a goddamn thing.

Weidman is a kid. Anderson will probably beat him if they fight this year: I'd take Anderson 7 out of 10 times. But Weidman has an enormously bright future, and if he continues to apply himself and improve at the current pace he's set, he's going nowhere near obscurity. A brush with fame could cause him to flake mentally/emotionally, sure; but that's a long shot, and one that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a potential loss to Anderson.

I think one of the best things you can say about Chris and his potential is to point out the fact that Anderson himself has said he doesn't want to fight him. Not soares, not one of the other braindeads on Anderson's staff, but the champion himself.

rh

I think we are steering to far from what I actually said. TrustKill said that this was a dangerous fight for Weidman, I just agreed with it and pushed it a little further to reinforce the point that I think he would be better off by getting another win before his title shot:


Quote:
Originally Posted by trustkill View Post
Am I the only one who thinks it's a bad idea for Chris Weidman to be fighting a monster like Anderson straight off shoulder surgery?
Bork_Lazer
Not alone on that one, I can see a very realistic scenario where he loses pretty bad to Anderson, tries to bounce back with a big fight like Vitor, loses and there he goes into obscurity...

I stand by what I said, in which I dont think that scenario is impossible or even improbable. Maybe obscurity was too much of a strong word, but those 2 losses back to back would put him where Paul Harris is now, still a relavant fighter with great potential, but far from being considered a threat to the title anytime soon. Can you really argue with that? It was a hypothetical, I didnt say he will fade, just making a point that this is a risky fight for him.

And the Munoz thing, is a valid point. Im not saying Munoz is a crap fighter (I do think he was overrated, but certainly very good) but he was very close to a title fight (and carried quite a bit of hype) and now a lot of people are shitting on him. Thats a fact, people are shitting on Munoz, rightfully so or not, but they are, and that is the risk that Weidman faces. Like I said, a risky fight for Weidman.

You are making it sound like I said that if Weidman loses to Silva he will vanish, but that not what I said, at least not what I meant to say.

Now on your comment

"I think one of the best things you can say about Chris and his potential is to point out the fact that Anderson himself has said he doesn't want to fight him."

I hope that doesn't mean you think Silva is afraid to fight Weidman... I think its delusional to think that of a guy that has never lost in the UFC. Silva is the guy who wanted to fight GSP. Which in my mind has to be seen as a harder and riskier fight. Harder because I think even though GSP is 2 inches shorter then Weidman he is still a much better fighter and would pose a much bigger threat to Silva. And riskier because if Silva lost to GSP he would without a doubt never again be considered number 1 p4p, that would be GSPs forever. Not saying that fight should or shouldn't happen though.

[rivethead]

I never paid much attention to your posts before, but I'll be honest: now that you've come to my attention, I can't help but think you're an idiot.

Comparing Weidman-at-a-potential-back-to-back-losses to present day Palhares is stupid. Rousimar has lost, what, 3 out of his last six and has never beaten a top 10 fighter in his career. Nevermind the fact that he tested hot after his last fight. Even then, I wouldn't call Palhares "fad[ed] into obscurity." It wouldn't surprise me if he's on a main card for his next fight, particularly if his opponent is a gamer. Even if he wasn't, if he wins his next fight, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't a main-carder again after dropping two and winning just one.


You made a dumb comment, you should just suck it up instead of trying to dig your way out with even dumber comments, and then to follow it up with kneejerk fanboy-loveblind bullshit about "dooode, I hope you're not pretending Anderson is afraid."

No, I didn't say that Anderson was afraid of Wiedman. I'm not going to play that game that fanboys love to obsess over. I'm not going to pretend that I have some secret insight into Silva's hopes, dreams and fears.

I'm dealing in facts. I said Anderson stated that he that he doesn't want to fight him. To my knowledge, he--personally--has never said that about another fighter, ever, in his career; never mind one who has been called the #1 contender in the MW division by dana white. He certainly hasn't said anything like that about a guy with just a bit more than a handful of fights like Weidman has.

I don't really care why he said it, the fact that he did is a huge point that is often overlooked by the very stupid [and entirely untenable on both sides] argument you just tried to interject. Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him.


I also said I believe Anderson would win--although I'd bet that only giving him 7 out of 10 is an affront to the more love-blind of his cheering fanboys--and that the fact that Anderson doesn't want to face him is perhaps the best thing you can say about Chris's potential at this point in his career.

rh

[H0SS]

Originally Posted by goodtimes

Most of those LW's I mentioned aren't in the UFC.

Shonie and Din were in the UFC when they defeated Serra. And LW is one of the most talented divisions, period.

Originally Posted by goodtimes

Also, everyone talks about how deep LHW is and Hendo is currently #2 there. Where are the fighters that GSP beats who decide to move up in weight?

Hendo was MW and LHW champ before Anderson ever beat him. And he continued fight at MW after Anderson beat him, racking up wins against Palhares and the most epic KO of all time against Bisping. He took one "Franklin-Weight" bout against Rich, but that was more of a "mini-superfight". He has been campaigning for a rematch against Anderson for a long time too. He didn't go back to LHW until he lost to Shields. And Shields... well.. he just moved up to MW :P

Originally Posted by goodtimes

By coming off of losses I mean they recently lost fights, doesn't have to be the last one. Ellenberger just got KO'ed by Kampmann, Kampmann and Fitch got KO'ed by Hendricks. Being 1 fight removed from brutal 1st round KO's allows guys to stay top contenders?

"Coming off of losses" means they lost their last fight. But I understand that you misspoke. And a KO loss to a top tier fighter doesn't knock you all the way down the mountain. Look at how Cain rebounded with one win against Bigfoot, Franklin needed just two wins to rematch Anderson, Randy Couture and Uriah Faber made a living out of getting title-shots based on their latest win, etc.

[Bork_Lazer]

Originally Posted by rivethead

I never paid much attention to your posts before, but I'll be honest: now that you've come to my attention, I can't help but think you're an idiot.

Comparing Weidman-at-a-potential-back-to-back-losses to present day Palhares is stupid. Rousimar has lost, what, 3 out of his last six and has never beaten a top 10 fighter in his career. Nevermind the fact that he tested hot after his last fight. Even then, I wouldn't call Palhares "fad[ed] into obscurity." It wouldn't surprise me if he's on a main card for his next fight, particularly if his opponent is a gamer. Even if he wasn't, if he wins his next fight, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't a main-carder again after dropping two and winning just one.


You made a dumb comment, you should just suck it up instead of trying to dig your way out with even dumber comments, and then to follow it up with kneejerk fanboy-loveblind bullshit about "dooode, I hope you're not pretending Anderson is afraid."

No, I didn't say that Anderson was afraid of Wiedman. I'm not going to play that game that fanboys love to obsess over. I'm not going to pretend that I have some secret insight into Silva's hopes, dreams and fears.

I'm dealing in facts. I said Anderson stated that he that he doesn't want to fight him. To my knowledge, he--personally--has never said that about another fighter, ever, in his career; never mind one who has been called the #1 contender in the MW division by dana white. He certainly hasn't said anything like that about a guy with just a bit more than a handful of fights like Weidman has.

I don't really care why he said it, the fact that he did is a huge point that is often overlooked by the very stupid [and entirely untenable on both sides] argument you just tried to interject. Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him.


I also said I believe Anderson would win--although I'd bet that only giving him 7 out of 10 is an affront to the more love-blind of his cheering fanboys--and that the fact that Anderson doesn't want to face him is perhaps the best thing you can say about Chris's potential at this point in his career.

rh

"Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him."

That right there to me sounds idiotic. I think its pretty straight forward that Silva gains nothing out of fighting Weidman and that is why he doesn't want the fight. I see no other reason for him not to want that fight.

I'll admit my wording might have gotten out of hand, but, I stressed my point pretty clearly last time that this is a risky fight for Weidman and that I think he would be better off by having one more win under his belt.

My point about Munoz stands... Im not shitting on Munoz, others are, there is no denying that. After Silva beat Maia people shit on Maia, hell people still say that Andersons resume is padded and they always thrown Maias name on the padded list... Again Im not making this shit up. Belfort however was embarrassed by Silva but yet people dont tend to throw him in the "padded" list because he has a lot of big wins and achievements under his belt, and I thought I made it clear that I was saying that if Weidman goes out there and gets another solid win he would have more to fall back on, in case he loses to Silva, instead of simply falling into Silva's padded resume...

Which makes me curious, if you are one who thinks Silva's Resume is weak?

Also, not sure you were implying that I'm a Silva fanboy. But just to clarify, I would say I'm not even a fan of Silva. Just don't understand how someone can deny him number one p4p.

On a separate note, I read in another thread that on paper Rashad should wreck Silva. I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. That to me makes absolutely no sense. I don't understand how anyone could even argue that. How can someone on paper wreck, not just win, but wreck the most dominant champion in history. What is this paper he is referencing???? And my point with this is, to me it sounds idiotic, it sounds insane, but... not gonna call him an idiot...

[optimusjoel]

Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer

"Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him."

That right there to me sounds idiotic. I think its pretty straight forward that Silva gains nothing out of fighting Weidman and that is why he doesn't want the fight. I see no other reason for him not to want that fight.

I'll admit my wording might have gotten out of hand, but, I stressed my point pretty clearly last time that this is a risky fight for Weidman and that I think he would be better off by having one more win under his belt.

My point about Munoz stands... Im not shitting on Munoz, others are, there is no denying that. After Silva beat Maia people shit on Maia, hell people still say that Andersons resume is padded and they always thrown Maias name on the padded list... Again Im not making this shit up. Belfort however was embarrassed by Silva but yet people dont tend to throw him in the "padded" list because he has a lot of big wins and achievements under his belt, and I thought I made it clear that I was saying that if Weidman goes out there and gets another solid win he would have more to fall back on, in case he loses to Silva, instead of simply falling into Silva's padded resume...

Which makes me curious, if you are one who thinks Silva's Resume is weak?

Also, not sure you were implying that I'm a Silva fanboy. But just to clarify, I would say I'm not even a fan of Silva. Just don't understand how someone can deny him number one p4p.

On a separate note, I read in another thread that on paper Rashad should wreck Silva. I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. That to me makes absolutely no sense. I don't understand how anyone could even argue that. How can someone on paper wreck, not just win, but wreck the most dominant champion in history. What is this paper he is referencing???? And my point with this is, to me it sounds idiotic, it sounds insane, but... not gonna call him an idiot...

You're like a weasel and very passive aggressive. If you take into account rashad's wrestling, his athleticism and power, he matches up extremely well to Anderson's weaknesses. It must be stupid to think he could get dominated right? It's not like he hasn't been before... Oh wait he has.... Finished too

[H0SS]

Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer

"Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him."

That right there to me sounds idiotic. I think its pretty straight forward that Silva gains nothing out of fighting Weidman and that is why he doesn't want the fight. I see no other reason for him not to want that fight.

Why is that "idiotic"? He didn't say Anderson was scared. He didn't even speculate as to why Anderson doesn't want to face Chris. He just pointed out that Chris, with his short resume, has done enough to be noticed by Anderson, and yet, for whatever reason, Anderson doesn't care to face him.

P.S. - People consider Maia a "padded" win, because he was knocked out in mid-air by Nate, then won a decision against Dan Miller, before being asked to fill in for Vitor against Silva. He was still a pretty one dimensional fighter at the time as well. It wasn't until his loss to Munoz that he exhibited a marked improvement in his striking.

[Bork_Lazer]

Originally Posted by optimusjoel

You're like a weasel and very passive aggressive. If you take into account rashad's wrestling, his athleticism and power, he matches up extremely well to Anderson's weaknesses. It must be stupid to think he could get dominated right? It's not like he hasn't been before... Oh wait he has.... Finished too

First you said I was a casual fan that doesnt understand the sport, which I was still pretty cool about then Rivethead calls me an idiot, that sent me over the edge. But Ill just drop this discussion for now. I think we are all about to watch one of the best cards of the year. Enjoy! (not trying to be a weasel here, really just want to drop this one, we are obviously not all going to agree on this anytime soon. Lets just butt heads on another thread in the near future)

[optimusjoel]

Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer

First you said I was a casual fan that doesnt understand the sport, which I was still pretty cool about then Rivethead calls me an idiot, that sent me over the edge. But Ill just drop this discussion for now. I think we are all about to watch one of the best cards of the year. Enjoy! (not trying to be a weasel here, really just want to drop this one, we are obviously not all going to agree on this anytime soon. Lets just butt heads on another thread in the near future)

Let me clear that up, what I meant is that you don't understand it on a technical level. Everyone watches the same fights but not the same way. A good example would be jack slack, he is a writer for be, he usually has good breakdowns as to why fights play out the way they do

[Bork_Lazer]

Originally Posted by optimusjoel

Let me clear that up, what I meant is that you don't understand it on a technical level. Everyone watches the same fights but not the same way. A good example would be jack slack, he is a writer for be, he usually has good breakdowns as to why fights play out the way they do

Im pretty sure I understand it and appreciate it in a technical level. I would chalk up what I said to this is a risky fight for Weidman and on top of that there is a re-occurring theme in the MW division that once someone loses to Silva a little down the road they become an easy fight for Silva, someone who never really stood a chance.

Evans got clipped pretty bad by both Thiago Silva and Rampage towards the end of those two fights and I don't think he could avoid getting clipped by Silva. But I think that would be a stellar fight. Hope it happens.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer

"Minimally, that means Chris has caught the eye of the champion with just 5 fights in the UFC, and the champ is not eager to face him."

That right there to me sounds idiotic. I think its pretty straight forward that Silva gains nothing out of fighting Weidman and that is why he doesn't want the fight. I see no other reason for him not to want that fight.

You're trying to figure out why. Nobody knows why. You can't prove it, anymore than someone who hates him--and I don't--can try to prove that he's afraid.

There is a school of thought that the champion fights the best available, not the best money. There is an idea that whenever the president of an org says someone is #1 contender--and dana said that about Weidman--that guy gets a title shot.

Nobody can prove why Silva doesn't want to fight him. That doesn't matter to me. The fact remains that after just five fights in the UFC, Weidman's name was in the mouth of guys in Anderson's camp before Anderson's name was in Weidman's.

That speaks to his potential, to his accomplishments.

It doesn't mean he'd beat Anderson. It doesn't mean Anderson is afraid of him. But it's a good indication that he's a fighter who isn't going to "fade into obscurity" with a couple losses.

I wouldn't call Anderson's resume padded anymore than I'd call Fedor's resume padded. But there are some lowlights on both.

rh