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[Palma]

Originally Posted by ufobydeath

I asked one of my instructors about it when I started training (seeing as I use them all the time) and he said "in SW, yes you can use them. In BJJ: big no-no". Rules differ somewhat from school to school so check it out. If you can use them - Sweet. If not... eh, roll a bit after class and work on them anyways.

It's a great move for self defense but just too dangeous just for competition.

[ufobydeath]

Originally Posted by Palma

It's a great move for self defense but just too dangeous just for competition.

So are heel-hooks. If they're allowed - use 'em. It all comes down to self-discipline from your part (not cranking it too hard and giving the opponent a chance to tap) and common sense on the other guy's part (to know when to tap). Problem is that a lot of grapplers aren't too familiar with the moves and don't know when they should tap.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by ufobydeath

So are heel-hooks. If they're allowed - use 'em. It all comes down to self-discipline from your part (not cranking it too hard and giving the opponent a chance to tap) and common sense on the other guy's part (to know when to tap). Problem is that a lot of grapplers aren't too familiar with the moves and don't know when they should tap.

Heel-hooks aren't allowed as well. I think in a perfect world there wouldn't be any subs that are illegal. As you said it does take common sense to tap, but I think the problem is that person applying the sub doesn't have the common sense to stop at a certain point if ther other guy isn't tapping. No tourny is worth destroying someone else's knee or bicept (imo).

[ScottS]

...heel hooks are definitely legal.

[ufobydeath]

Originally Posted by Palma

Heel-hooks aren't allowed as well. I think in a perfect world there wouldn't be any subs that are illegal. As you said it does take common sense to tap, but I think the problem is that person applying the sub doesn't have the common sense to stop at a certain point if ther other guy isn't tapping. No tourny is worth destroying someone else's knee or bicept (imo).

Well, that depends. In SW they're allowed, but the teachers always stress the importance on awareness and self-discipline so that we don't hurt each other. In BJJ it's another story, but then again our BJJ teachers barely allow any leglocks at all (which pisses me off but is understandable). You're absolutely right though, it's not worth crippling someone for the sake of a grappling tourny (anyone who thinks it is would be extremely petty). I just think that the notion of excluding submissions from training is pretty weird; if you don't know the move then how will you defend against it?

Originally Posted by ufobydeath

Bicep Slicers are greatness. It's too bad they're not allowed in BJJ

Who says? Their allowed in my previous club and my new one.

[ufobydeath]

Originally Posted by BJJ Boy

Who says? Their allowed in my previous club and my new one.

Most teachers that I've talked to... and God of course.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by ScottS

...heel hooks are definitely legal.

Only for Black and Brown belts.

Originally Posted by ufobydeath

Well, that depends. In SW they're allowed, but the teachers always stress the importance on awareness and self-discipline so that we don't hurt each other. In BJJ it's another story, but then again our BJJ teachers barely allow any leglocks at all (which pisses me off but is understandable). You're absolutely right though, it's not worth crippling someone for the sake of a grappling tourny (anyone who thinks it is would be extremely petty). I just think that the notion of excluding submissions from training is pretty weird; if you don't know the move then how will you defend against it?

The advanced grapplers certainly work on all subs, but for the first few years there is so much to learn anyways that it doesn't bother me not to be able to heel hooks and bicept slicers. At our gym they show us how to defend illegal subs but not apply them at this point.

We used to work on bicept slicers until a really good student ended his career when his other hand got caught in his gi and he could tap fast enough. His bicep was litterally ripped off of the bone where the bend in his elbow is.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Palma

Only for Black and Brown belts.



The advanced grapplers certainly work on all subs, but for the first few years there is so much to learn anyways that it doesn't bother me not to be able to heel hooks and bicept slicers. At our gym they show us how to defend illegal subs but not apply them at this point.

We used to work on bicept slicers until a really good student ended his career when his other hand got caught in his gi and he could tap fast enough. His bicep was litterally ripped off of the bone where the bend in his elbow is.

That doesn't sound like a very good time, the guy he was rolling with should've known when to stop with the pressure so nothing like that happened though. Were they two beginners? I couldn't imagine a student with some time in ripping somebody's bicept off the bone because they didn't feel a tap.

[ufobydeath]

Originally Posted by Palma

The advanced grapplers certainly work on all subs, but for the first few years there is so much to learn anyways that it doesn't bother me not to be able to heel hooks and bicept slicers. At our gym they show us how to defend illegal subs but not apply them at this point.

We used to work on bicept slicers until a really good student ended his career when his other hand got caught in his gi and he could tap fast enough. His bicep was litterally ripped off of the bone where the bend in his elbow is.

Yeah, you should never overstep your bounds. There's a lot to learn out there and without a strong foundation your game will inevitably fall apart.

Youch! Well, that's a problem with the gi... same thing's happened to me when I got caught in a choke. I agree with g'nightXX though. The guy executing the sub should ALWAYS communicate with the guy getting subbed.