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  • 08-06-2013, 11:47 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by Trustym2 View Post
    That's funny, because Davis had more take downs than Henderson against Lyoto, and Lyoto took down Henderson...he didn't take down Davis.... And according to fight metric Davis had more significant strikes than Henderson. Machida in both fights, same number of Sig Strikes. Machida also had nearly the same number of total strikes in both fights also.... So how can he draw one where he did more and his opponent less. But then you say he clearly won the other. No, not a mark for Machida at all, just a Davis Hater maybe?!
    mostly because I score fights round by round and not by looking at fightmetric. If that makes me a some kind of hater, feel free to label me as such.

    rh
  • 08-06-2013, 10:56 PM
    IceCold48
    Quote Originally Posted by The Return Of...... View Post
    My whole issue with the fight is I could not help but feel that if Machida would have turned it up a notch he could have finished the fight. I think it was a close fight, and while I was surprised to hear Davis won I can not say I am that upset about it. Unless Machida decides to let loose he is always going to face this problem. Whether he was effective or not at live speed he can look ineffective at times. We have to remember the judges do not have the same vantage point during the fight that we do. A lot can be easily missed by this.
    that was the same deal against rampage in my opinion and maybe even hendo. i think lyoto has the ability to finish anybody he just chooses not to i guess out of fear of being caught or gassing.
  • 08-06-2013, 10:37 PM
    The Return Of......
    My whole issue with the fight is I could not help but feel that if Machida would have turned it up a notch he could have finished the fight. I think it was a close fight, and while I was surprised to hear Davis won I can not say I am that upset about it. Unless Machida decides to let loose he is always going to face this problem. Whether he was effective or not at live speed he can look ineffective at times. We have to remember the judges do not have the same vantage point during the fight that we do. A lot can be easily missed by this.
  • 08-06-2013, 10:27 PM
    IceCold48
    I think lyoto won this fight but barely. It definetly proved to me that jones would smash him again if there was a rematch.
  • 08-06-2013, 10:09 PM
    Trustym2
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I don't know who is the authority, but I default to BJM the most. The original piece--I think it was a transcription of an audio--where he went over the "back of the head/mohawk" bit had some stuff about percentages equating to effectiveness.

    I think you have to play it case by case...I'm not asking for a blanket "higher percentage equates to more effective" policy or anything. I think in your example, you'd have to look at how the leg kicks impact the fight. If it takes away a fighters lead leg, makes them unable to shoot or to plant for hard strikes, those are great strikes. If they're just pitter patter shots, amid a lot of whiffs, they're not as big of a deal. I felt throughout this fight in particular, Machida was landing more often with bigger shots, when he wanted them, and was doing a great job of controlling the pace and the octagon. I'm not a mark for Lyoto--I felt his win over Henderson was a draw--but I feel he won a close fight pretty decisively against Davis.

    rh
    That's funny, because Davis had more take downs than Henderson against Lyoto, and Lyoto took down Henderson...he didn't take down Davis.... And according to fight metric Davis had more significant strikes than Henderson. Machida in both fights, same number of Sig Strikes. Machida also had nearly the same number of total strikes in both fights also.... So how can he draw one where he did more and his opponent less. But then you say he clearly won the other. No, not a mark for Machida at all, just a Davis Hater maybe?!
  • 08-06-2013, 09:14 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by earle View Post
    What if you have a situation where one guy wobbles the other guy with a punch combo, but the other guy lands 10 leg kicks? Who was the more effective striker? Did the punches hurt more than the leg kicks? Did they affect the fight more? Does a strike have to wobble you for it to be considered a "hard strike"? It's a lot to process, as a judge I would think you would have to count every punch and leg kick as a "hard strike", unless it was a grazing shot.

    That's just my opinion. Who's the real authority/expert when it comes to the unified rules, Big John? I'd like to hear his opinion at least.
    I don't know who is the authority, but I default to BJM the most. The original piece--I think it was a transcription of an audio--where he went over the "back of the head/mohawk" bit had some stuff about percentages equating to effectiveness.

    I think you have to play it case by case...I'm not asking for a blanket "higher percentage equates to more effective" policy or anything. I think in your example, you'd have to look at how the leg kicks impact the fight. If it takes away a fighters lead leg, makes them unable to shoot or to plant for hard strikes, those are great strikes. If they're just pitter patter shots, amid a lot of whiffs, they're not as big of a deal. I felt throughout this fight in particular, Machida was landing more often with bigger shots, when he wanted them, and was doing a great job of controlling the pace and the octagon. I'm not a mark for Lyoto--I felt his win over Henderson was a draw--but I feel he won a close fight pretty decisively against Davis.

    rh
  • 08-06-2013, 08:05 PM
    SWIFTboy
    Another thing to consider - and I have only watched the fight once in bad quality - is the WAY Machida was stuffing some of those takedowns.

    He wasn't just escaping them desperately and still being placed in a bad situation, like up against the cage.
    He timed some of Davis' attempts so well that Davis looked like he tried to take down a brick wall. Several other times Machida stopped him in his tracks with knees. In those cases I definitely see the stuffed takedown as being offensive.

    The problem with fightmetric, and much of this conversation is that it's ignoring the nuances and small details that mean everything (at least to me). I feel like you can't score takedowns like you do field goal attempts in basketball, it's way more subjective than that*.
    Unfortunately, that also means it's more ambiguous, and leaves room for intepretation, which is a bad thing when the judges aren't always competent.

    *Edit: To try and show that I'm not completely biased against Davis, it can work both ways. I think on his very first TD attempt in the first round, he got completely stuffed, but then used that scramble to land an uppercut. In THAT case I would score the exchange for Davis, despite getting stuffed on the TD.
  • 08-06-2013, 07:48 PM
    earle
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    In an extreme situation like your example, the concept would obviously break down...but when you have the striking so close, the guy who is landing with a higher percentage is certainly more efficient...and when he'd wobbled Davis, he's obviously more effective. In the second round, I'd say they had fairly equal striking in terms of actual power shots, with Machida landing a higher percentage. In terms of grappling, I'd say going 1 for 4 with takedowns isn't effective, particularly since Davis didn't do anything with it.

    But your welcome to your own perspective.

    rh
    What if you have a situation where one guy wobbles the other guy with a punch combo, but the other guy lands 10 leg kicks? Who was the more effective striker? Did the punches hurt more than the leg kicks? Did they affect the fight more? Does a strike have to wobble you for it to be considered a "hard strike"? It's a lot to process, as a judge I would think you would have to count every punch and leg kick as a "hard strike", unless it was a grazing shot.

    That's just my opinion. Who's the real authority/expert when it comes to the unified rules, Big John? I'd like to hear his opinion at least.
  • 08-06-2013, 06:29 PM
    rivethead
    A clear knockdown from a standing strike should score higher than a takedown, as the fight is closer to being finished.

    Takedowns should be valued on what the fighter does with them--ie, if they're just advancing position to position [sherk, guida] they shouldn't be weighed as heavily as a fighter who is actively trying to finish the fight with ground and pound--similar to individual strikes shouldn't be weighed as heavily as an effective combination.

    Failed takedowns should not count for the initiator, and should potentially count against them if they don't do anything else that round.

    percentage of striking is a great indicator of effective striking when the scores of total strikes and significant strikes are so close. in the case of Machida/Davis, where Davis had a slight edge in total strikes but Machida had a more discernable edge in significant strikes, I'd minimally use it to break any perception of a "tie" as far as striking goes.

    rh
  • 08-06-2013, 05:54 PM
    Masscore
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJack View Post
    Answered as a wrestler would.
    Very true. But just wondering, what would you score higher then a takedown? The only thing I think that is worth more is a near finish, either strikes or submission. Something that could make it a 10-8 round if judges actually gave those out. If a guy scores a takedown but gets nearly choked out I would give the points to guy going for the choke. Like with Evans v. Ortiz 1, Evans scored a late takedown in the 2nd round but Tito nearly subbed him. So as far as scoring goes I give that edge to Tito.
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