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  • 03-03-2014, 04:31 PM
    IceCold48
    Quote Originally Posted by dbader08 View Post
    Just using him as an example. Some guys are bigger draws, some aren't...even when their the champion. BJ Penn was a pretty good draw at LW.

    I didn't know you could tell the future, but nice to know I guess. It's certainly not likely...we gotta see how Brown does in a big spot now.
    Yeah my real name is Icecoldstradamus
  • 03-03-2014, 03:45 PM
    dbader08
    Quote Originally Posted by IceCold48 View Post
    I just don't understand why you are using Edgar as an example. He never went below 200k buys meanwhile Aldo did in the Zombie fight(who was supposed to be a draw) and the fact that UFC 169 numbers haven't yet been released indicates that it did not do well either.

    Also Nick Diaz would never fight Matt Brown.

    EDIT: UFC 150 did 190 k buys so I was wrong. Still don't understand why you are singling out Edgar its the smaller weight classes in general which makes little sense to me as in boxing the smaller weights are most popular. Mayweather isn't even that exciting at all yet he pulls in 2 million.
    Just using him as an example. Some guys are bigger draws, some aren't...even when their the champion. BJ Penn was a pretty good draw at LW.

    I didn't know you could tell the future, but nice to know I guess. It's certainly not likely...we gotta see how Brown does in a big spot now.
  • 03-02-2014, 09:38 PM
    Rise
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    this is about to disintegrate into a discussion over semantics...so in that case, you win. huzzah.
    So do I get a cookie or some other form of award for winning ?

    Yeah...show me the research you did to come to the conclusion that the entire buyrate increase was due to people tuning in because Georges wanted to hurt someone.
    I lumped Nick and Nate in together when I was speaking of draws... so lets clarify Nate is not a draw in my opinion at all. Nick does have some draw to him... but of all the more casual fans I talk to or hang around with they are not clamoring to see the next Nick Diaz fight. As I mentioned before it's the causal fans that push the PPV buys up to the million mark. Did I go out an run a survey nope just an opinion based on what I've seen/heard.

    Nick best PPV before was 400k with condit and prior to that it was under 300k with BJ respectable numbers no doubt but not anything to make me think he is a huge draw the UFC absolutely has to have which is what I was originally saying and not that he isn't a draw at all.

    One could just as easily state that the Diaz fight outsold the Hardy fight based on Nick's drawing power--and remember--Hardy went 4 and 0 in the octagon and kept his job because he was a draw.
    The Hardy fight still pulled in around 800k buys to the Diaz 950k buys it wasn't like Hardy/GSP didn't draw good numbers. Besides that I would hope Nick is a better draw then a guy that had zero chance given to him going into his fight with GSP. My understanding was that Hardy kept his job because he was an entertaining fighter and don't remember him being called a draw... though I'm sure helps with ticket sales in the UK.

    It's not a matter of disdaining fighters. I've been a staunch advocate for Fitch when the rest of the world hates on him. But are you disdaining the Diaz's when they're just trying to keep financial gain and security in their future as well?
    I'm disdaining them for their actions... never suggested they shouldn't be employed just that the UFC shouldn't bend over backwards to so

    But there is an enormous difference between fighting smart and fighting not to lose.
    There is a difference sure... but I think a lot of fighters get labelled unfairly as fighting not to lose.
  • 03-02-2014, 05:11 PM
    IceCold48
    Quote Originally Posted by dbader08 View Post
    Only because of the fact that he had 2 title fights with Penn and because Aldo headlines lackluster Brazil cards from time to time...and who the heck ever wanted to watch Florian in a main event?

    And I'm not saying I don't like watching Edgar fight...but you have to have those guys that sell tickets. Sometimes fans never get into guys who are good fighters for whatever reason...I was quite surprised more people didn't tune into the 3rd Grey fight after such an epic 2nd one...you gotta hang on to those guys that you know the majority of fans will tune in to watch fight.

    It's too bad Nick won't come back and fight once or twice more without it being for a title...he could fill in the co-main spot of a potentially stacked card. Imagine Nick Diaz vs Matt Brown as the Co-Main for Weidman-Machida...I'd be so damn stoked.
    I just don't understand why you are using Edgar as an example. He never went below 200k buys meanwhile Aldo did in the Zombie fight(who was supposed to be a draw) and the fact that UFC 169 numbers haven't yet been released indicates that it did not do well either.

    Also Nick Diaz would never fight Matt Brown.

    EDIT: UFC 150 did 190 k buys so I was wrong. Still don't understand why you are singling out Edgar its the smaller weight classes in general which makes little sense to me as in boxing the smaller weights are most popular. Mayweather isn't even that exciting at all yet he pulls in 2 million.
  • 03-02-2014, 04:45 PM
    SwordofAres
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    As a Penn fan, I'm not a huge fan of Frankie. I'm also a mark for Aldo, and I hate how undersold he is in the UFC.

    But Frankie is a lot more accessible to the common fan than either of them.


    I'm also not saying the fact that Nick and Nate aren't actors excuses the bullshit they generate. It would be nice if they learned from their experiences and got out of their own way. But I'd rather see them get success than see sonnen rewarded for manufacturing an asshole public persona, for instance.

    rh
    I could understand that, I'd just rather not see any of them.
  • 03-02-2014, 04:34 PM
    rivethead
    As a Penn fan, I'm not a huge fan of Frankie. I'm also a mark for Aldo, and I hate how undersold he is in the UFC.

    But Frankie is a lot more accessible to the common fan than either of them.


    I'm also not saying the fact that Nick and Nate aren't actors excuses the bullshit they generate. It would be nice if they learned from their experiences and got out of their own way. But I'd rather see them get success than see sonnen rewarded for manufacturing an asshole public persona, for instance.

    rh
  • 03-02-2014, 04:06 PM
    SwordofAres
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post

    Frankie is far more charismatic than Aldo. He's an everyman, an underdog who succeeds against long odds. He comes off as a guy a lot of people would want to have a beer with.

    rh
    I hate Frankie but I'm obviously biased due to my Gray Maynard nut huggery.
  • 03-02-2014, 04:00 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Not grasping at straws.. I merely pointed that particular fight out as an example. You can;t say you only fight a particular way then go out an do the opposite whether it's one match or ten it's still completely contrary to what was said.
    this is about to disintegrate into a discussion over semantics...so in that case, you win. huzzah.

    I certainly may have overstated my point in saying the Diaz brothers would rather lose than be a points fighter, although pointing out the one fight out of close to 40 in Nick's career [closer, if you count the time he fought Riggs at the hospital] where he had legitimate affection for his opponent instead of the animosity he generally works up might also be an exception, rather than a rule.

    I disagree that is GSP that is doing all the work and it shows by his ales from one fight to the next for Condit or Hardy he didn't sell the fight as someone he wants to hurt. For Diaz he did and the fans bought that fight to see him do that (at least the causuals did)
    Yeah...show me the research you did to come to the conclusion that the entire buyrate increase was due to people tuning in because Georges wanted to hurt someone.

    One could just as easily state that the Diaz fight outsold the Hardy fight based on Nick's drawing power--and remember--Hardy went 4 and 0 in the octagon and kept his job because he was a draw.

    Diaz is a draw without selling fights in a traditional manner.

    I actually refer to it as wanting to win and not being stupid. In any sport i you want to be successful you play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses... Not sure why people expect MMA to be different.

    Much less I don;t understand why people have such disdain for someone that is trying to make a living... winning and losing fights have significant impact on a fighters future both when it comes to financial gain and long term job security.
    It's not a matter of disdaining fighters. I've been a staunch advocate for Fitch when the rest of the world hates on him. But are you disdaining the Diaz's when they're just trying to keep financial gain and security in their future as well?

    I disdain the system that allows zuffa all the contractual power in the world, to terminate a fighter mid-contract if they lose. I disdain an ignorant fanbase that boos as soon as a fight hits the ground.

    But there is an enormous difference between fighting smart and fighting not to lose.

    I understand the way they are... just don't like it. Rough upbringings do not have to equate to being the way they are especially when they've been blessed with talent to rise above that.

    I get that you appreciate the Diaz brothers not putting on an act and I've always believed in "I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I am not" line of thinking. Just think they could be capable of being better people in and out of the ring.
    It's not a matter of me appreciating them. I just don't feel entitled to judge them.

    I don't watch their interviews, I cringe when one becomes unavoidable and I have to hear what's coming out of their mouths. Working in the drug education/rehabilitation industry, I'd be willing to bet that both are dependent on weed, which I find sad. But I don't really focus on who they are outside of the cage. I do, however, always watch their fights.

    It would be nice if they were better people. It would be nice if my next door neighbor was a better person, too.

    Come to think of it, the world would be a better place if I were a better person.

    hope your not suggesting I prefer Chael's antics to the Diaz brothers... cause I'm no fan of either.
    I like to watch the Diaz's fight. I don't worry about them outside of the cage--I have too much other shit to concern me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbader08 View Post
    Only because of the fact that he had 2 title fights with Penn and because Aldo headlines lackluster Brazil cards from time to time...and who the heck ever wanted to watch Florian in a main event?
    Frankie is far more charismatic than Aldo. He's an everyman, an underdog who succeeds against long odds. He comes off as a guy a lot of people would want to have a beer with.

    Aldo struggles with image, and it's getting worse, the more he's treated like a red-headed stepchild by dana and zuffa.

    It's too bad Nick won't come back and fight once or twice more without it being for a title...he could fill in the co-main spot of a potentially stacked card. Imagine Nick Diaz vs Matt Brown as the Co-Main for Weidman-Machida...I'd be so damn stoked.
    If the money is there, he'll come back and fight.

    rh
  • 03-02-2014, 03:44 PM
    SwordofAres
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post

    I get why people don't like Nick and Nate. They're callous, they're unprofessional. They can be a black eye on the sport, for sure. I feel the same way about AO and sonnen in terms of visceral response. But what I don't get is when people try to pretend that they're not talented, that they're not a draw, that they don't belong in the UFC. That's letting bias blind perspective.

    The Diaz brothers are real people. They're not pretending to be anything they're not. They don't have a filter, but neither does dana--and he's always pretending that he's something he's not.

    rh
    I hear this used a lot to defend fighters like the Diazes and Rousey. I 100% disagree with the whole "being real" makes their behavior okay line of thought. Just being who you are is all fine and good but if who you are is a douche bag, maybe you SHOULD try changing who you are. (For the record I'm not SAYING the Diazes are Douche bags, wouldn't want this thread to turn into another Sakara farewell thread).

    Being an adult means some times you have to act the way you should rather than the way you want. That's what having class and professionalism is. I highly doubt Meisha wanted to shake Ronda's after she lost but that's what a classy professional does.

    If I talked to clients and co workers the way I want to I'd be out of a job. I understand it's different because they get paid to fight and their antics sell fights but, guys like Fedor and GSP could sell fights with out acting like they're in high school. Yes they're talented but their antics make me have no desire to see them fight.

    I also wouldn't agree that their antics are any better than Chael's. I believe in judging people based on their actions. Whether you act like a douche because it comes natural to you or because people think it's cool you are still acting like a douche so I will view you as one (unless you are Phil Baroni cause that shit just aint worth the drama).
  • 03-02-2014, 02:29 PM
    dbader08
    Quote Originally Posted by IceCold48 View Post
    Edgar is a bigger draw than Aldo.
    Only because of the fact that he had 2 title fights with Penn and because Aldo headlines lackluster Brazil cards from time to time...and who the heck ever wanted to watch Florian in a main event?

    And I'm not saying I don't like watching Edgar fight...but you have to have those guys that sell tickets. Sometimes fans never get into guys who are good fighters for whatever reason...I was quite surprised more people didn't tune into the 3rd Grey fight after such an epic 2nd one...you gotta hang on to those guys that you know the majority of fans will tune in to watch fight.

    It's too bad Nick won't come back and fight once or twice more without it being for a title...he could fill in the co-main spot of a potentially stacked card. Imagine Nick Diaz vs Matt Brown as the Co-Main for Weidman-Machida...I'd be so damn stoked.
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