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  • 06-17-2014, 02:14 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by IceCold48 View Post
    Why do you even bother arguing with him about Jones?
    Good question. Slow day today. I started this part of the thread simply pointing out how flimsy the concept of jones suddenly thinking Cormier is just the greatest after one win over a TRT-less Henderson, when he was completely dismissing him less than a year ago.

    ...and from there, I was just responding to additional ignorance, I guess.

    rh
  • 06-17-2014, 01:54 PM
    IceCold48
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I wasn't talking about UFC rankings. I was talking about credible rankings at the time the fight occurred. Zuffa probably had him ranked much higher, but I've honestly never looked at their rankings before.


    ...of course he would. And you're not completely full of shit when you say this:




    ...that only proves my point further: facing Henderson without a TUE is an easier task than when he's able to access TRT.


    But suddenly, after beating a TRT-less, softly-ranked Henderson, it not only warrants a title shot, but moves him ahead of Goose.

    Got it.


    It's a completely different argument because Pettis is appreciably bigger than Aldo, and would be dropping down to gain a size advantage over a much, much smaller fighter.

    DC dropping down still gives up an incredible amount of size to Jones.

    rh
    Why do you even bother arguing with him about Jones?
  • 06-17-2014, 01:47 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows View Post
    What i dont get is that if Manuwa was ranked as low at 12 - what has he done recently to have moved up 1 spot in the ufc rankings to 11
    I wasn't talking about UFC rankings. I was talking about credible rankings at the time the fight occurred. Zuffa probably had him ranked much higher, but I've honestly never looked at their rankings before.

    2014 Hendo would take Manuwa's lunch money while he is zzzzzzzz face down on the mat.
    ...of course he would. And you're not completely full of shit when you say this:

    No i wouldnt, as it would actually have been a test for Goose.
    But the fight would have been before TRT was banned, and BEFORE he faught Shogun.
    ...that only proves my point further: facing Henderson without a TUE is an easier task than when he's able to access TRT.

    I disagree that his body of work warranted a title shot at LHW.
    But suddenly, after beating a TRT-less, softly-ranked Henderson, it not only warrants a title shot, but moves him ahead of Goose.

    Got it.

    Fights in different weight classes shouldnt affect your ranking in a weight class than you havent been fighting in. The same argument was made when Showtime was going to drop down and fight Aldo - yet when DC wants to drop down and fight Jones - its a completely different argument.
    It's a completely different argument because Pettis is appreciably bigger than Aldo, and would be dropping down to gain a size advantage over a much, much smaller fighter.

    DC dropping down still gives up an incredible amount of size to Jones.

    rh
  • 06-17-2014, 01:23 PM
    BonesKnows
    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    Sure, Lets be real...at the time Goose faced him, The worst that I could find Manuwa ranked was 12, with Henderson being ranked as high as 8. In his last 4, Henderson was 1 and 3 at that point, and Manuwa was on a huge streak with something like 10 consecutive finishes.
    What i dont get is that if Manuwa was ranked as low at 12 - what has he done recently to have moved up 1 spot in the ufc rankings to 11 - you know not having fought since his destruction at the hands of Goose. Manuwa was on a streak of finishing guys who dont even have a wiki page to click on, then beat kyle kingsbury (who has drawn the likes of Pat Cummings next after 2 years away), Diabate who tore his calf in the fight, and Ryan Jimmo who also hurt his leg during their fight.

    So 3-0 with 2 of the fights being wins as a result of his opponents injuring themselves = fight against the #1 contender.

    I'm a huge Henderson fan [when he's not punching people in the back of the head]. I've been a fan of Henderson since before you had even heard of MMA. But in no way is a 2014 Henderson appreciably better than Manuwa, except in drawing power. In fact, if Henderson doesn't quit--and I wish he would--I would be unsurprised to see him facing Jimi within the next year. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if Manuwa beats him. Disappointed? Yes. Surprised? No, not if we're "being real."
    2014 Hendo would take Manuwa's lunch money while he is zzzzzzzz face down on the mat.


    So really, lets be real: if Goose had drawn Henderson as an opponent, you'd have been complaining about that. If we're being real, you would have wanted a better "test" for Goose to "earn" his rematch.
    No i wouldnt, as it would actually have been a test for Goose. As stated above 3*-0 in the ufc doenst warrant you a shot at the #1 contender. Futhermore it doesnt get you ranked in the top 10 - when the fighters you beat - are no where close to the top 10.

    Now consider; if Goose had drawn Henderson without the crutch of a TUE, you'd have utterly dismissed his validity.
    Thats a bold assumption. I was the one calling for a Hendo KO over DC - yet id be the one question his validity?

    Then factor in that he was fighting [TRT-less] 8 weeks after taking 30-odd shots to the head from Shogun.
    But the fight would have been before TRT was banned, and BEFORE he faught Shogun.



    Note; I'm not saying Cormier doesn't deserve a title shot. He does. But moreover, he did, already. His resume speaks for itself, and it spoke for itself when jones was first baiting, and then quickly pissing and moaning about him.

    I'm just pointing out that the flip-flop--and the weakest ever defense of said flip-flop--is pathetic, and it makes jones look like an ass.
    I disagree that his body of work warranted a title shot at LHW. Fights in different weight classes shouldnt affect your ranking in a weight class than you havent been fighting in. The same argument was made when Showtime was going to drop down and fight Aldo - yet when DC wants to drop down and fight Jones - its a completely different argument.
  • 06-17-2014, 01:02 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows View Post
    Hendo > Manuwma.

    im not saying thats the fight i wanted to see - lets be real though Hendo is better than Cummings and Manuwa put together. In a perfect world i would have liked to see Goose fight a top 5 guy before getting the rematch rather than Manuwa and DC to fight a top 5 guy that wasnt hendo but it is what it is.
    Sure, Lets be real...at the time Goose faced him, The worst that I could find Manuwa ranked was 12, with Henderson being ranked as high as 8. In his last 4, Henderson was 1 and 3 at that point, and Manuwa was on a huge streak with something like 10 consecutive finishes.

    I'm a huge Henderson fan [when he's not punching people in the back of the head]. I've been a fan of Henderson since before you had even heard of MMA. But in no way is a 2014 Henderson appreciably better than Manuwa, except in drawing power. In fact, if Henderson doesn't quit--and I wish he would--I would be unsurprised to see him facing Jimi within the next year. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if Manuwa beats him. Disappointed? Yes. Surprised? No, not if we're "being real."



    So really, lets be real: if Goose had drawn Henderson as an opponent, you'd have been complaining about that. If we're being real, you would have wanted a better "test" for Goose to "earn" his rematch.

    Now consider; if Goose had drawn Henderson without the crutch of a TUE, you'd have utterly dismissed his validity.

    Then factor in that he was fighting [TRT-less] 8 weeks after taking 30-odd shots to the head from Shogun.

    You're welcome to try to pretend that was the tipping point that suddenly made jones reverse his "oh, that guy hasn't done shit" perspective 180 degrees into "my oh my, he's the bestest opponent in the world; it's a pity that those ignorant, hater fight fans can't see that."

    This was weak, coming from jones, and it's weaker coming from his fans.


    Note; I'm not saying Cormier doesn't deserve a title shot. He does. But moreover, he did, already. His resume speaks for itself, and it spoke for itself when jones was first baiting, and then quickly pissing and moaning about him.

    I'm just pointing out that the flip-flop--and the weakest ever defense of said flip-flop--is pathetic, and it makes jones look like an ass.

    rh
  • 06-17-2014, 12:13 PM
    W.Silva>C.Norris
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    My point is simple. 4 months ago, Dan Cormier wasn't deserving of a title shot--according to jones. Suddenly, after facing a worn out, post-TRT Henderson, Dan is not only worthy of a title shot, he's more worthy of a title shot than Gustafsson.


    If you can somehow justify that, I can't help you.

    Very simply, it's fucking stupid bullshit.

    rh
    Of all the stupid, childish, and ignorant behaviour Ive seen Jones fan(s) justify, I really dont see his flip-flopping on Henderson/Cormier/Glover for that matter as a big stretch. More like, its right in line with the kind of conduct unbecoming of a champion that Jones fans have learned to admire from their "hero"
  • 06-17-2014, 12:12 PM
    BonesKnows
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post


    EDIT: I got sidetracked.
    My point is simple. 4 months ago, Dan Cormier wasn't deserving of a title shot--according to jones. Suddenly, after facing a worn out, post-TRT Henderson, Dan is not only worthy of a title shot, he's more worthy of a title shot than Gustafsson.

    rh
    Hendo > Manuwma.

    im not saying thats the fight i wanted to see - lets be real though Hendo is better than Cummings and Manuwa put together. In a perfect world i would have liked to see Goose fight a top 5 guy before getting the rematch rather than Manuwa and DC to fight a top 5 guy that wasnt hendo but it is what it is.
  • 06-17-2014, 12:08 PM
    KevoOnTheRadio
    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    No. But he was the highest ranked LHW available at the time.
    Sorry, fixed.
  • 06-17-2014, 11:55 AM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows View Post
    dan henderson would fall under this category, no?
    I guess that would depend on your definition of legitimate.

    Legitimately able to sell a few PPVs? sure, particularly by jones' standards.

    But legitimate in terms of an opponent? Really?

    Dan was 1 and 3 in his last 4 going into the Cormier bout. In his one win, he was getting utterly outstruck and outgrappled till he landed the hail mary against Shogun--and you should note that Shogun is also a shadow of himself, that neither guy has really recovered from UFC 139.

    But don't take my word for it. Jones himself said something to the effect that Henderson was too old and "wasn't ever going to get a title shot, unless it was in a parking lot somewhere..." and said more recently
    I have no wishes to fight Dan Henderson. Dan Henderson is a guy who, you know, he’s done a lot for this sport already, he’s a lot older. I think he’s a guy a lot of people would expect me to beat anyways. So I have no big dreams of fighting Dan Henderson. In his last fight with Rashad Evans you could really see him starting to slow down...So fighting him I don’t think really proves much.
    http://www.mmamania.com/2013/7/13/45...-henderson-mma

    oh, and that was while Henderson was still given a TUE; something that bones complained gave him an unfair advantage, called it an enhancement, etc.

    So fighting an "old," "slowed-down" post TRT Henderson is somehow a "legitimate" test for Cormier? One that is big enough to change jones' mind about him not being worthy of facing the champ?

    suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure it was.


    EDIT: I got sidetracked.
    My point is simple. 4 months ago, Dan Cormier wasn't deserving of a title shot--according to jones. Suddenly, after facing a worn out, post-TRT Henderson, Dan is not only worthy of a title shot, he's more worthy of a title shot than Gustafsson.


    If you can somehow justify that, I can't help you.

    Very simply, it's fucking stupid bullshit.

    rh
  • 06-17-2014, 11:35 AM
    KevoOnTheRadio
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows View Post
    dan henderson would fall under this category, no?
    No. But he was the best LHW available at the time.
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