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  • 08-30-2006, 11:57 PM
    KnowledgeKnown
    you misinterpreted my post. I didn't even consider saying chuck not being world class. I was basically saying that even if Tito beat Chuck people would say he (tito) wasn't world class because Chuck was getting old and wasn't at his best anymore. Perfect example of this was When Jermaine Taylor beat Hopkins. Right away people were discounting his skill saying Hopkins was old and washed up so it was no big feat. Well he proved them all wrong when he embarassed Tarver and proved that he's still the real Bernard. This happens again and again to athletes, and if Tito ends up winning the title from Chuck it will happen to him as well.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:45 PM
    Afro
    Quote Originally Posted by KnowledgeKnown
    I think an excuse would be he never beat anyone WHEN they were world class. wow, that really opens it up. so if he beats Chuck everyone will just say, well Chuck wasn't world class then, he fell off. I mean jeez, who decides when someone isn't world class yet or isn't anymore. Losing to Ortiz? lol
    How the fuck is that an excuse? What the hell are you trying to say?

    Ok Chuck has beaten Randy Couture twice, hes beaten Babalu twice.. so if Tito beat him Chuck wouldnt be world class? So what makes Tito World class is not beating anyone that could be considered a world class fighter.. right thats real logical :banghead:

    I think ima go ahead an look up some other fighters that never really beat anyone great and label them world class fighters too.. hell Tito may of been world class when he was a champ! but what is he now???? jeez..
  • 08-30-2006, 09:43 PM
    KnowledgeKnown
    I think an excuse would be he never beat anyone WHEN they were world class. wow, that really opens it up. so if he beats Chuck everyone will just say, well Chuck wasn't world class then, he fell off. I mean jeez, who decides when someone isn't world class yet or isn't anymore. Losing to Ortiz? lol
  • 08-30-2006, 09:41 PM
    Afro
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinatra
    LOL. Excuses for what? You've offered no argument, and when pressed to get specific and to respond with an actual argument versus opinion, this is how you respond.

    It only took a handful of posts to uncover the fact that, when it comes down it, you have an opinion, but you can't back it up with anything substantial, and are in fact, full of hot air.
    ok your obviously a huge Tito fan so ima leave you and your ridiculous opinion that hes a world class fighter alone
  • 08-30-2006, 09:39 PM
    Sinatra
    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Samurai
    all im hearin is excuses.
    LOL. Excuses for what? You've offered no argument, and when pressed to get specific and to respond with an actual argument versus opinion, this is how you respond.

    It only took a handful of posts to uncover the fact that, when it comes down it, you have an opinion, but you can't back it up with anything substantial, and are in fact, full of hot air.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:36 PM
    Afro
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinatra
    Well, you seem to attack his stand up as being suspect, yet can't point out anything specific about what makes it suspect (here's a hint that you could've used: his covering up, and defensive head movement didn't look good against Chuck, which is why he was knocked out). Granted, as far as his stand up goes, he wasn't ready to go toe to toe with Chuck, but it was good enough to hang with him for the 1st round.

    Is his standup on the same page as Silva? Of course not. Is Silva's ground game on the same level as Ortiz? No. So does that make Silva not a world class fighter? Of course not. Also, I don't care how early it was in both their career's, he still beat Silva.

    We can go round and round with this. You ask where he's shown good submission skills? Show me where he used poor submission skills? He was tapped on the first night of his career. And? You may not see it this way, but not being submitted in an MMA fight is showing good submission defense. Submission defense is more than being able to muscle out of a choke or hold. Not getting put in one in the 1st place is good sub defense. Plus, he's only been KO'd once and stopped with strikes once in his career, which shows me that he has good standup. Again, good stand up is more than being a KO artist.
    all im hearin is excuses.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:32 PM
    Afro
    Quote Originally Posted by KnowledgeKnown
    we don't know what would happen in Pride with Tito. That of course is speculation. We will see within a year whether he can beat current world class fighters and even if he does there will be people who say he's not.
    like I said, define world class I think theres a huge difference between a good fighter, or even a great fighter then being World Class

    Chuck Liddell is world class, he has world class striking hes an elite fighter... Tito Ortiz not really.. this guy has wins over Silva but Silva was young then, not even close to the fighter he was today! that was made obvious when Vitor beat him too.. Tito had a good run in the UFC my problem is when he faced fighters that are considered world class.. he got beat (IE: Chuck, Randy, Frank) Hes never beaten a world class fighter when they actually were a world class fighter so why should he be considered that? I say let the guy prove hes that before you go calling him it.. cuz he aint done crap IMO to be considered anything more then just good.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:29 PM
    Sinatra
    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Samurai
    no one is lookin at his personallity and interpetting him as a bad fighter! hes not a bad fighter but WORLD CLASS is overexaggerating his skills, Tito never really had a good standup game tell me a fight where he actually showcased good standup, show me a fight where he showcased good submission skills.. your talking world class here.. hes not on the same page as Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, any of the Nogs, or any of these guys who are world class fighters so how can you consider him a world class fighter? hes a good one no doubt but hes a wrestler who GnPs I dont give him the edge over most in anything else.. so I cant consider him a world class fighter
    Well, you seem to attack his stand up as being suspect, yet can't point out anything specific about what makes it suspect (here's a hint that you could've used: his covering up, and defensive head movement didn't look good against Chuck, which is why he was knocked out). Granted, as far as his stand up goes, he wasn't ready to go toe to toe with Chuck, but it was good enough to hang with him for the 1st round.

    Is his standup on the same page as Silva? Of course not. Is Silva's ground game on the same level as Ortiz? No. So does that make Silva not a world class fighter? Of course not. Also, I don't care how early it was in both their career's, he still beat Silva.

    We can go round and round with this. You ask where he's shown good submission skills? Show me where he used poor submission skills? He was tapped on the first night of his career. And? You may not see it this way, but not being submitted in an MMA fight is showing good submission defense. Submission defense is more than being able to muscle out of a choke or hold. Not getting put in one in the 1st place is good sub defense. Plus, he's only been KO'd once and stopped with strikes once in his career, which shows me that he has good standup. Again, good stand up is more than being a KO artist.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:28 PM
    KnowledgeKnown
    we don't know what would happen in Pride with Tito. That of course is speculation. We will see within a year whether he can beat current world class fighters and even if he does there will be people who say he's not.
  • 08-30-2006, 09:23 PM
    Afro
    Quote Originally Posted by KnowledgeKnown
    I believe his GnP is world class, and he showcased stand up against Shamrock certainly. Of course it depends how you feel about shamrock right now. I think Ortiz is world class, he's not the best perhaps but I do believe he's atleast in the conversation among lightheavy weights everyone wants to see fight just about any other lightheavy weight. Fans love to see him fight even if they hate him. Some to see him lose but I feel its because he will make an interesting fight. He beat Vitor, and I used to think he was an elite.
    maybe I need a definition of World Class then.. cuz I dont believe being just a good fighter in the states, and really only being known in the states makes him world class.. his GnP is great in the UFC! but what if he went to pride would that be the case? or if he fought elsewhere, the guys never fought out of the states... Shamrock fought that fight with bad ACLs and its shamrock.. beating him standing doesnt mean you got world class standup, and Vitor was washed up when they fought and that went to a decision.
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