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  • 10-17-2006, 08:54 PM
    dagreat1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy
    Come on man...how can people constantly disrespect the Middleweight division? Evan Tanner was the man when Rich walked in, unknown, and embarassed him. David Louiseau is a feared striker, Robbie Lawler was still around at the time and was thought to be THE fighter at 185, Jorge Rivera is still a good name to throw in the mix, although not top tier by any means....the Middleweight division is a pretty good division. If he felt he fit better at that weight, then it was just a good tactical decision. Sean Sherk used to fight at 170, but all I hear about him is praise for beating Kenny Florian at 155 in a not-so-dominant fashion for the Lightweight title. B.J. Penn never was able to win the 155 pound title, so he moved weight classes. (granted 155 was dropped in the UFC for a while...he could have fought elsewhere) Is Brandon Vera a Heavyweight or Light Heavyweight this week? Yet people still can't stop worshipping him. Fighting is all about finding the right weight for you. That's just an aspect of the game, not being a chicken shit.
    The Vera worshipping is valid though there is hype surroundig him for sure, hopefully the people hyping him have actually seen some of his fights other than his UFC fights. He is a very well rounded fighter withgreat skills in each discipline, I have seen videos of wrestling matched of his and he suplexes a guy with absolute ease and throws him into a guillotine chock and lifts him about a foot in the air and then while the guy is suspended in the air he suplexes him again.

    His strength is very deceiving, his wrestling technique is great, he has a great ground game and a great standup game so he should be able to develop into a world class fighter in all aspects of MMA.

    He is one of those guys that have a lot of drive and want to be champion. Much like Diego and Rashad, they have all stated that they are goignt o be champions and those are the 3 young standout fighters in the UFC (other than St. Pierre but he has been world class for a while now) that I beleive will in fact become champions at some point.

    I think for Sherk it was a similar thing to Franklin, if you can make weight (cut or gain) a different weight class that is less competitive it is a great career move and that is what it is all about, they try their best to put on a great show for the fans and rightfully so they are rewarded with big paychecks (the top guys at least) and for Skerk, he is a short guy at only like 5'-6" or so and WW is like LHW in the UFC as you have Hughes and GSP and Sherk lost to both and pretty easily so he could either stay at 170 and be #3 his entire career or he could drop to LW and become champion and be in the spotlight and earn a very good living. It was a very wise choice for him and I like him at this weight and I don't see anyone taking the belt from him for a long time (Melvin has potential but it will take years to develop, if they were to fight now, Sherk would break him mentally in the very first round and dominate him for 25 minutes).
  • 10-17-2006, 08:47 PM
    Kewl144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy
    How about the fact that he is an examplary human being. He is humble inside and out of the octagon, always soft spoken, extremely intelligent
    all of which has nothing to do with him as a fighter. Try to stay on track. You're still caught up in praising the person, which is fine, but you're ignoring reality when it comes to his actual fighting skills.

    and knowledgeable of the sport. His ability to change gameplans on the spot is uncanny (though not in the Silva fight)
    Such as when? When he fought Jorge and he figured out that he couldnt knock him out? Where are all these "uncanny" examples that set him apart from other fighters who switch to a ground game when the stand up isnt working.

    and his mental composure is what truly sets him apart from other fighters.
    How does it? Stop listing things you think and start listing examples.

    He is very well rounded with a ton of wins by both knockout and submission, but his dominance doesn't come from his skill. It comes from a combination of his skill and his extremely well known intellectual presence in a fight. When you have a guy who knows how to fight, AND he's smart enough to change gameplans when things aren't going his way....that's a dangerous guy.
    No thats the average MMA fighter these days. Fighters change their tactics all the time in a fight if something isnt working. He's well rounded? Another catch phrase thats always tossed around. Yea sure he's well rounded but that only means he doesnt have a dominate discipline to fall back on. He has average skills in every aspect of MMA.

    As for Dana White...I can't stand the guy. So stop telling me what I'M doing. I'm pretty sure you're no psychologist, and you certainly don't know me so how can you base that statement? Most of all I think Rich Franklin is a great fighter because no matter how much people bitch about him, he goes out there every time and lays it all on the line for us, the fans. Rich Franklin is an extremely exciting fighter and I will continue to believe so until he starts fighting boring fights. I don't see that happening any time soon however.
    Every fighter goes out and fights, so that doesnt seperate him from anyone else. I think its time to face facts. I know you're a fan of his (nothing wrong with that) but you're more occupied with Rich as a person than a fighter. All you've done in the preceeding paragaph is repeat the exact same thing Dana White has been saying about Rich and the same thing the annoucers have been saying about Rich. Hell, i'll try to track down a transcript of the free preview show with Dana and Joe Rogan talking and you'll see for yourself that you've just repeated the same things they've said. But the reality is, nothing truly seperates him from the other fighters, other than his marketability as a clean cut, good looking (Randy even mentions this during the PPV), American fighter.
  • 10-17-2006, 08:15 PM
    Nate_Deezy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl144
    Rich has never been impressive. And all I see in your above post is another person dodging the simply question; why are his fans in such awe of Franklin? His ground game is average, his technique is sloppy, his punches are crisp, his leg kicks look weak...etc. Franklin is known as a striker but nothing about his actual abilities would tell you this. He's only known as a striker because he likes to stand and strike whereas Silva is known as a striker because of his muay thai. Again, why are people in such awe of a fighter who beat some cans, some kids, and 2 good (not great fighters)? The reason people like you cant accept my opinions is because Rich was built up so much in your mind. Whether you want to accept it or not, you bought into the marketing. You bought into Dana singing Rich's praises. You brought into the annoucers praising Rich over and over. But why? What truly, as a fighter, seperates Rich from everyone else? Ask yourself that last question and you'll be able to see Franklin for exactly what he is; a good, but not great, fighter (and no, not everyone else in the UFC but in the sport of MMA as a whole). He hasnt done anything to prove himself to be a great fighter yet.
    How about the fact that he is an examplary human being. He is humble inside and out of the octagon, always soft spoken, extremely intelligent and knowledgeable of the sport. His ability to change gameplans on the spot is uncanny (though not in the Silva fight) and his mental composure is what truly sets him apart from other fighters. He is very well rounded with a ton of wins by both knockout and submission, but his dominance doesn't come from his skill. It comes from a combination of his skill and his extremely well known intellectual presence in a fight. When you have a guy who knows how to fight, AND he's smart enough to change gameplans when things aren't going his way....that's a dangerous guy.

    As for Dana White...I can't stand the guy. So stop telling me what I'M doing. I'm pretty sure you're no psychologist, and you certainly don't know me so how can you base that statement? Most of all I think Rich Franklin is a great fighter because no matter how much people bitch about him, he goes out there every time and lays it all on the line for us, the fans. Rich Franklin is an extremely exciting fighter and I will continue to believe so until he starts fighting boring fights. I don't see that happening any time soon however.
  • 10-17-2006, 08:07 PM
    Nate_Deezy
    Quote Originally Posted by dagreat1
    Tito actually walks around at 230lbs, same as Chuck. Franklin walks around at 215, Hughes and GSP at 190lbs.

    The point that was made was not about who cuts the most weight, it was more about the fact that Franklin WAS fighting the vast majority of his career at 205lbs. Once he became a highly marketable figure, he felt it was a WISE career move to drop down to 185 where there was very little cometition unlike the LHW division where he would have to fight Tito, Babalu or Chuck and I am 99% sure he would get owned in all 3 of those fights.
    Come on man...how can people constantly disrespect the Middleweight division? Evan Tanner was the man when Rich walked in, unknown, and embarassed him. David Louiseau is a feared striker, Robbie Lawler was still around at the time and was thought to be THE fighter at 185, Jorge Rivera is still a good name to throw in the mix, although not top tier by any means....the Middleweight division is a pretty good division. If he felt he fit better at that weight, then it was just a good tactical decision. Sean Sherk used to fight at 170, but all I hear about him is praise for beating Kenny Florian at 155 in a not-so-dominant fashion for the Lightweight title. B.J. Penn never was able to win the 155 pound title, so he moved weight classes. (granted 155 was dropped in the UFC for a while...he could have fought elsewhere) Is Brandon Vera a Heavyweight or Light Heavyweight this week? Yet people still can't stop worshipping him. Fighting is all about finding the right weight for you. That's just an aspect of the game, not being a chicken shit.
  • 10-17-2006, 08:02 PM
    Kewl144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy
    OK...I arleady dissected this statement. All fighters have to cut weight. Do you think there are just randomly world class fighters walking around at 155, 170, 185, and 205 by coincidence? No....they have to work very hard to make weight and once they do, it's official.
    Of course it's a fact of the game. But Rich did/does it well. When fight day arrives, he wouldnt make weight for a lightheavy weight.

    He probably goes home and eats....and drinks water so he's not dehydrated during fights because if he was, people like YOU would criticize him for showing up and not performing. I have never seen him bully an opponent because that would mean he threw them around or grappled with them based on his pure strength because we all know striking has nothing to do with strengh, rather it comes from technique.
    This is exactly what happened with Dewees. He threw him around and he still couldnt knock him out.

    How can you sit here and talk badly about a guy who's only ever had one fight go to decision and only lost 2 of his 24 fights? What more can you ask for from a fighter?
    Badmouth him? Because I say he was/is a good fight but not a great fighter? That's just the reality of Rich Franklin.

    The sad thing is you're probably one of the people who bitches about guys like Rashad Evans NOT finishing fights. WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT? MMA has to be the most frustrating sport out there because no matter what you do, no matter how impressive you are, no matter how exciting your fights are, you go home beaten and bloody, get on the internet and there are people bitching about your performance. I feel sorry for these guys having to perform for ungreatful bastards like you.
    Rich has never been impressive. And all I see in your above post is another person dodging the simply question; why are his fans in such awe of Franklin? His ground game is average, his technique is sloppy, his punches are crisp, his leg kicks look weak...etc. Franklin is known as a striker but nothing about his actual abilities would tell you this. He's only known as a striker because he likes to stand and strike whereas Silva is known as a striker because of his muay thai. Again, why are people in such awe of a fighter who beat some cans, some kids, and 2 good (not great fighters)? The reason people like you cant accept my opinions is because Rich was built up so much in your mind. Whether you want to accept it or not, you bought into the marketing. You bought into Dana singing Rich's praises. You brought into the annoucers praising Rich over and over. But why? What truly, as a fighter, seperates Rich from everyone else? Ask yourself that last question and you'll be able to see Franklin for exactly what he is; a good, but not great, fighter (and no, not everyone else in the UFC but in the sport of MMA as a whole). He hasnt done anything to prove himself to be a great fighter yet.
  • 10-17-2006, 07:58 PM
    dagreat1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy

    Also, your point about cutting weight to "bully" fighters is void because 99% of fighters have to cut weight prior to a fight. It is said that Tito Ortiz walks around at about 250 before fights. In the Wanderlei Silva/ Cro Cop fight, people mention that Silva put on weight for the fight, which was a bad move. That's false. He just didn't have to cut weight in an open weight tournament, so he just fought at his natural weight. Fighting weight and natural weight are always 2 different things.



    Tito actually walks around at 230lbs, same as Chuck. Franklin walks around at 215, Hughes and GSP at 190lbs.

    The point that was made was not about who cuts the most weight, it was more about the fact that Franklin WAS fighting the vast majority of his career at 205lbs. Once he became a highly marketable figure, he felt it was a WISE career move to drop down to 185 where there was very little cometition unlike the LHW division where he would have to fight Tito, Babalu or Chuck and I am 99% sure he would get owned in all 3 of those fights.
  • 10-17-2006, 07:54 PM
    Nate_Deezy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl144
    Sure he trained hard, and he might have brought his fight game into new areas. But at the end of the day, Franklin was still just a good fighter. Can anyone explain to me why people are so in awe of him? What is it about him? They did an inside his training thing awhile ago and all they focused on is what he ate and his conditioning. Is that why people are in awe of him? Is that why Dana kept hyping him over and over? His technique is sloppy, his punches arent crisp, he has the same average ground game that every UFC fighter seems to have now so that doesnt set him apart. The only thing that set him apart in the past is that he comes in heavy. He comes in looking much bigger than his opponents and he uses that to win his fights. He got use to bullying around his opponents. And it was only a matter of time before he fought someone he couldnt push around and who wasnt afraid of him. Hell Silva didnt even watch Franklin's fight tapes (he let his coaches watch them). So again, why were/are so many people in awe of Franklin? What really sets him apart from the other fighters other than coming into a middleweight fight weighing 205 or 210? Was it simply because he's American?
    OK...I arleady dissected this statement. All fighters have to cut weight. Do you think there are just randomly world class fighters walking around at 155, 170, 185, and 205 by coincidence? No....they have to work very hard to make weight and once they do, it's official. He probably goes home and eats....and drinks water so he's not dehydrated during fights because if he was, people like YOU would criticize him for showing up and not performing. I have never seen him bully an opponent because that would mean he threw them around or grappled with them based on his pure strength because we all know striking has nothing to do with strengh, rather it comes from technique. How can you sit here and talk badly about a guy who's only ever had one fight go to decision and only lost 2 of his 24 fights? What more can you ask for from a fighter? The sad thing is you're probably one of the people who bitches about guys like Rashad Evans NOT finishing fights. WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT? MMA has to be the most frustrating sport out there because no matter what you do, no matter how impressive you are, no matter how exciting your fights are, you go home beaten and bloody, get on the internet and there are people bitching about your performance. I feel sorry for these guys having to perform for ungreatful bastards like you.
  • 10-17-2006, 07:03 PM
    Kewl144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate_Deezy
    No...I am not new to MMA. I have been watching since UFC 1 as a matter of fact. Not to mention Pride, WFA, KOTC, and other promotions. I also train in mma. But to say Ken Shamrock is not a legend in MMA is purely ridiculous and baseless. In fact, I am beginning to question your MMA longevity considering you have only based this statement on Shamrock's recent fights and an obvious lack of respect for a man who has helped make MMA what it is today.
    Yep, Shamrock was washed up when he fought Franklin. He was only brought in to fight Franklin to put him over and to attact a lot of the new fans and pro-wrestling fans. He has a well known name but when he fought Franklin he should have already been retired.

    I don't buy in to marketing. What I saw was a guy who picked apart every opponent who was put in front of him. Don't talk to me about how easy his competition was because at this level of MMA, the competition is going to be extremely tough. Everyone knows their stuff and knows it very well, and anytime a fighter goes into that cage against ANYONE, a submission or knockout is possible from either side no matter how outclassed someone might appear to be. That said, no one even came close to Franklin. He absolutely dominated everyone who was put before him and made his opponents look like someone who was having their first fight against a very seasoned vet.
    Yep. And for the most part he was fed cans and fighters who werent ready. He beat up some kids, a couple cans, and 1 or 2 "good"(not great) fighters. He made those fights look like what Silva made their fights look like.

    I didn't mention thos fights because I just mentioned his UFC run. I didn't want to bring up any of the in between fights because that would have been off my point, not because I lacked confidence in his opposition. See my statement above. Anyone can be beaten at any time. Didn't you forget to mention that Anderson Silva was submitted by a guy named Daiju Takase whose record is 7-11-1? Or how about Jose Barreto whose record consists of a loss to Anderson Silva and nothing else? (0-1-0) Claudionor Fontinelle (7-9-1), Israel Albuquerque (0-3-0), Alexander Otsuka (3-12-0), Waldir dos Anjos (2-8-0), and the same Jorge Rivera (13-5-0) and Curtis Stout (11-10-0) you criticized when the subject was on Rich Franklin? Who has Anderson Silva beaten of notable mention before Franklin? Carlos Newton? Although he's highly regarded in the MMA community, that doesn't change the fact that Newton sports a record of 13-10-0 which isn't overly impressive.
    I agree. A lot of the names on Silva's hitlist are immediately known by most. But again, the difference between Franklin and Silva is that Franklin is known as a striker because he likes to stand up and fight but Silva is known as a striker because of his muay thai. Franklin found out what that means and I think a lot of fans are going to slowly realize what it means also.

    I'm not trying to bash Anderson Silva. He is definitely the cream of the crop in the middleweight division right now. I'm just saying everyone fights cans at some point in their career. EVERYONE. Just try and show some respect to a fighter who dedicates his entire life to training hard, fighting hard, and most of all putting on a great show for us, the fans. That's what matters man. Bias aside....love MMA.
    Sure he trained hard, and he might have brought his fight game into new areas. But at the end of the day, Franklin was still just a good fighter. Can anyone explain to me why people are so in awe of him? What is it about him? They did an inside his training thing awhile ago and all they focused on is what he ate and his conditioning. Is that why people are in awe of him? Is that why Dana kept hyping him over and over? His technique is sloppy, his punches arent crisp, he has the same average ground game that every UFC fighter seems to have now so that doesnt set him apart. The only thing that set him apart in the past is that he comes in heavy. He comes in looking much bigger than his opponents and he uses that to win his fights. He got use to bullying around his opponents. And it was only a matter of time before he fought someone he couldnt push around and who wasnt afraid of him. Hell Silva didnt even watch Franklin's fight tapes (he let his coaches watch them). So again, why were/are so many people in awe of Franklin? What really sets him apart from the other fighters other than coming into a middleweight fight weighing 205 or 210? Was it simply because he's American?
  • 10-17-2006, 06:52 PM
    Nate_Deezy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl144
    Shamrock...legendary? Are you new to MMA? A tuf bandwagon fan? Shamrock has been losing for awhile. The guy looked like a joke in with Franklin. His time has long been over. Even his dreaded leg lock wasnt doing anything. He's never been the world's most dangerous man...well other than when a WWF writer, wrote the win for him. You seriously want to list Shamrock as one of Rich's greatest moments? Shammy was used to get Franklin over with the fans before Franklin punked down to a smaller weight class to try and bully his opponents.
    No...I am not new to MMA. I have been watching since UFC 1 as a matter of fact. Not to mention Pride, WFA, KOTC, and other promotions. I also train in mma. But to say Ken Shamrock is not a legend in MMA is purely ridiculous and baseless. In fact, I am beginning to question your MMA longevity considering you have only based this statement on Shamrock's recent fights and an obvious lack of respect for a man who has helped make MMA what it is today.

    Also, your point about cutting weight to "bully" fighters is void because 99% of fighters have to cut weight prior to a fight. It is said that Tito Ortiz walks around at about 250 before fights. In the Wanderlei Silva/ Cro Cop fight, people mention that Silva put on weight for the fight, which was a bad move. That's false. He just didn't have to cut weight in an open weight tournament, so he just fought at his natural weight. Fighting weight and natural weight are always 2 different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl144
    Not to be taken lightly by anyone in the UFC anyway. I noticed that you didnt even bother mentioning a couple in between fights like Franklins wins over Curtis Stout (11wins, 10 losses), Ralph Dilon (1 loss), Leo Sylvest (7 wins, 19 losses) and the list of cans continue. Franklin has always been a good fighter but I never viewed his game as being anything great. He's suppose to be some kind of an amazing striker but his punches are sloppy and by his one admission, he isnt a very technical fighter. He's just a good fighter, but nothing great (that I could ever see). I never really understood the hype around him. And again, nothing against him as a person but I never bought into the marketing hype surrounding the fighter.

    I don't buy in to marketing. What I saw was a guy who picked apart every opponent who was put in front of him. Don't talk to me about how easy his competition was because at this level of MMA, the competition is going to be extremely tough. Everyone knows their stuff and knows it very well, and anytime a fighter goes into that cage against ANYONE, a submission or knockout is possible from either side no matter how outclassed someone might appear to be. That said, no one even came close to Franklin. He absolutely dominated everyone who was put before him and made his opponents look like someone who was having their first fight against a very seasoned vet.

    I didn't mention those fights because I just mentioned his UFC run. I didn't want to bring up any of the in between fights because that would have been off my point, not because I lacked confidence in his opposition. See my statement above. Anyone can be beaten at any time. Didn't you forget to mention that Anderson Silva was submitted by a guy named Daiju Takase whose record is 7-11-1? Or how about Jose Barreto whose record consists of a loss to Anderson Silva and nothing else? (0-1-0) How about Claudionor Fontinelle (7-9-1), Israel Albuquerque (0-3-0), Alexander Otsuka (3-12-0), Waldir dos Anjos (2-8-0), and the same Jorge Rivera (13-5-0) and Curtis Stout (11-10-0) you criticized when the subject was on Rich Franklin? Who has Anderson Silva beaten of notable mention before Franklin? Carlos Newton? Although he's highly regarded in the MMA community, that doesn't change the fact that Newton sports a record of 13-10-0 which isn't overly impressive.

    I'm not trying to bash Anderson Silva. He is definitely the cream of the crop in the middleweight division right now. I'm just saying everyone fights cans at some point in their career. EVERYONE. Franklin is no different. Just try and show some respect to a fighter who dedicates his entire life to training hard, fighting hard, and most of all putting on a great show for us, the fans. That's what matters man. Bias aside....love MMA.
  • 10-17-2006, 06:34 PM
    Kewl144
    Quote Originally Posted by MMA God
    I'm gettin sick and tired of everyone sayin that Franklin is finished because of one loss. He just had the wrong strategy/gameplan against a superior striker. Everyone said the exact same thing when Ortiz was beaten by Couture and Liddell and he has come back and won his last 4 fights in a row and has a rematch with Liddell on Dec 30. Once Franklin comes back and destroys his next opponent everyone will be like i didn't mean it, i knew he wasn't done. Everyone will be eating crow after Franklin's next fight. Believe it
    not so much finished as exposed. Franklin was/is known as a striker because he likes to stand and punch. Silva is known as a striker because of his background in muay thai...see the difference?
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