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Topic Review (Newest First)

  • 08-30-2012, 12:55 AM
    Lesnar_FTW
    Cain, as Jones won't have a massive size advantage
  • 08-21-2012, 10:59 PM
    Kimbo> Rampage
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    Ok, so what I got from this is that you agree with me: When you said Bones would "easily" get a "legit KO" you were being stupid.

    Thank you. It was wordy and confusing, but generous of you to admit that you were wrong.
    He could, but he wont... He will drop him and follow him to the ground just like Anderson did. If he really was wanting to get the standing KO like he is talking about, he could let him up and eventually crack Dan's chin for first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    Guys say he'd probably struggle because they don't see him the way you do. They don't see him as a better wrestler than Barnett, for instance. They don't assume he'll keep his speed advantage as he puts on bulk. They understand the difference between having a ridiculous reach advantage and a weight advantage on your opponent; as opposed to just having a reach advantage against a potentially stronger opponent.

    You've said before that you think Bones is the most talented fighter in MMA. I don't agree. I think he's a lot like lesnar, only with potential. Right now--like lesnar at his peak--his technical game is limited, but admirably augmented by his physical gifts. Unlike lesnar, bones has time and will probably grow into a more skilled fighter as he matures, but right now, he covers technical holes with physicality...and that ability would be diminished if he were to fight at HW, where his advantage wouldn't be so lopsided.

    rh
    I guess we will agree to disagree. Josh is a very good grappler. He is a submission artist with pretty good takedown, but not great as some see them. He couldnt get CC down who may not even have any weight on Jones.... He also couldnt get DC down either... If somebody has very good TDD he struggles/cant get them down...

    I dont see him being able to get Jones down... I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
  • 08-21-2012, 06:06 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by rampage9712 View Post
    Dan is a good striker, with huge power and a great chin. Who also has slower footwork... similar in some ways to Rampage. With Jones huge reach and speed advantage he will be able to control Dan, he wont be as dangerous as he usually is. Not necessarily because of Jones' striking skill, but because of his physical talents.

    We have also seen Jones fight much better strikers than Hendo as well. Who would have given Dan all he could handle as well. Technically speaking they are above Jones, but we all saw the fights, he has natural advantage that can more than close the gap.

    Dan is going to be constantly trying to get inside, to land his punches or even try for a clinch. That will give Jones a great opportunity to make Dan run into one of his shots.

    I see Jones dropping Hendo at some point in this fight standing... but he will most likely follow him to the ground and finish him there with strikes or sub him... But Jones has said he is looking for the KO, if he really was, he could let Dan up and lay it on him. I also think Anderson could have been the first to truely KO Dan, but he chose to follow him to the ground and sub him... He landed his strikes with great accuracy...

    Dan has a legendary chin, one of the best we have ever seen in MMA for sure. He only get fazed by huge shots, but has great recovery even from there, but still everyone can get put out. In this fight he has a higher chance of getting put out... due to Jones' reach and Speed, negating a lot of his game.
    Ok, so what I got from this is that you agree with me: When you said Bones would "easily" get a "legit KO" you were being stupid.

    Thank you. It was wordy and confusing, but generous of you to admit that you were wrong.

    It will be very interesting to Jones at HW. I wouldnt pencil him in as the future champ just yet, but dont understand how people say he would struggle with any top10 HW and get killed by guys like Mir, Barnett, etc.
    Guys say he'd probably struggle because they don't see him the way you do. They don't see him as a better wrestler than Barnett, for instance. They don't assume he'll keep his speed advantage as he puts on bulk. They understand the difference between having a ridiculous reach advantage and a weight advantage on your opponent; as opposed to just having a reach advantage against a potentially stronger opponent.

    You've said before that you think Bones is the most talented fighter in MMA. I don't agree. I think he's a lot like lesnar, only with potential. Right now--like lesnar at his peak--his technical game is limited, but admirably augmented by his physical gifts. Unlike lesnar, bones has time and will probably grow into a more skilled fighter as he matures, but right now, he covers technical holes with physicality...and that ability would be diminished if he were to fight at HW, where his advantage wouldn't be so lopsided.

    rh
  • 08-21-2012, 01:21 PM
    Kimbo> Rampage
    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    Time will tell, but I think you're on crack. I think you're underestimating Henderson's striking and his chin, and severely overestimating Jones' power. Henderson has fought much better technical strikers than Jones--more accurate, more powerful--and hasn't been close to being KO'd, never mind "easily" giving up a legit KO.
    Dan is a good striker, with huge power and a great chin. Who also has slower footwork... similar in some ways to Rampage. With Jones huge reach and speed advantage he will be able to control Dan, he wont be as dangerous as he usually is. Not necessarily because of Jones' striking skill, but because of his physical talents.

    We have also seen Jones fight much better strikers than Hendo as well. Who would have given Dan all he could handle as well. Technically speaking they are above Jones, but we all saw the fights, he has natural advantage that can more than close the gap.

    Dan is going to be constantly trying to get inside, to land his punches or even try for a clinch. That will give Jones a great opportunity to make Dan run into one of his shots.

    I see Jones dropping Hendo at some point in this fight standing... but he will most likely follow him to the ground and finish him there with strikes or sub him... But Jones has said he is looking for the KO, if he really was, he could let Dan up and lay it on him. I also think Anderson could have been the first to truely KO Dan, but he chose to follow him to the ground and sub him... He landed his strikes with great accuracy...

    Dan has a legendary chin, one of the best we have ever seen in MMA for sure. He only get fazed by huge shots, but has great recovery even from there, but still everyone can get put out. In this fight he has a higher chance of getting put out... due to Jones' reach and Speed, negating a lot of his game.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I don't know that anyone is saying they'd walk through him, but I'd favor them at this point, particularly if they fought him now, with his lack of HW experience and the current holes in his game. He'd be dealing with fighters who would close the gap on the ridiculous reach advantage he's enjoyed over LHW's and--if their technical skills weren't enough--they would have strength advantages to go with sheer mass to augment their takedowns. All three of them have grappling advantages over him, and all three of them hit harder than he does if there is any clinch work.


    At LHW, it's a toss-up, because I just don't know how Cormier reacts to the cut, but at HW--particularly if the fight occurred now, for the reasons I've stated above--I'd go long money on Cormier all day.

    rh
    Yes with guys like Werdum, Barnett and Mir. They are all closer in height/reach to him than his LHW opponents. And would hold a strenght advantage over him.... but that alone isnt going to allow them to get him down. Jones' does have very good wrestling. Werdum and Mir do not have good wrestling, it would be very hard for them to get him down. And Josh's takedowns imo are very overrated. He is an excellent grappler as a whole, but as a pure wrestler he is not up there. Also they all have good technical striking but would give up a lot of speed to Jones.

    Who does that leave then... Cain, JDS, AO, DC. All would be very tough fights for Jones.

    Especially JDS and AO, he gets killed by both of them now. They both have good size, tdd and killer standup.

    It will be very interesting to Jones at HW. I wouldnt pencil him in as the future champ just yet, but dont understand how people say he would struggle with any top10 HW and get killed by guys like Mir, Barnett, etc.
  • 08-20-2012, 07:53 PM
    Sniggles
    Present Jones vs Present Cain...


    Cain all day.



    Future Jones vs. Future Cain.... pure speculation with not a grain of insight.
  • 08-20-2012, 07:13 PM
    rivethead
    Quote Originally Posted by CtGreat View Post
    Lesnar didn't even attempt to set up his takedowns, he always just bull rushed people and relied on his massive size/strength advantage.

    I definitely think Jones would be able to hold his own against Cain wrestling wise.
    I think you're overlooking Cain's chin and Jones' relative lack of KO power. I think Cain employs a higher-technical version of what I'm assuming Henderson will do...look to take a few punches to counter to the body to slow him down, and then close with superior power.

    I think even at even weights Cain's grappling is lightyears ahead of Jones. His wrestling base is deeper and his BJJ is both offensively and defensively superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by rampage9712 View Post
    I actually think he could be the first guy to finish Hendo. If he actually tries to KO Dan, he will. He a big reach advantage as well as speed advantage on Dan. Dan has slower footwork, will have trouble getting inside, and getting Jones down if he even gets that close. It will be a field day for Jon.

    But the most likey case if Jones drops him, is he will go to the ground with him and finish him with strikes or a submission. He could easily let him back up and get the legit KO if he wanted to.
    Time will tell, but I think you're on crack. I think you're underestimating Henderson's striking and his chin, and severely overestimating Jones' power. Henderson has fought much better technical strikers than Jones--more accurate, more powerful--and hasn't been close to being KO'd, never mind "easily" giving up a legit KO.

    I dont see how people are quick to put Mir, Barnett, or Werdum over him. Their standup is solid, but nothing spectacular and are going to have tons of trouble trying to get him down.
    I don't know that anyone is saying they'd walk through him, but I'd favor them at this point, particularly if they fought him now, with his lack of HW experience and the current holes in his game. He'd be dealing with fighters who would close the gap on the ridiculous reach advantage he's enjoyed over LHW's and--if their technical skills weren't enough--they would have strength advantages to go with sheer mass to augment their takedowns. All three of them have grappling advantages over him, and all three of them hit harder than he does if there is any clinch work.

    DC would be a good fight, because of his excellent wrestling, speed, and strength... But Jones would match his speed if not exceed it, as well as have a huge height/reach advantage. Even more so than his fights at LHW
    At LHW, it's a toss-up, because I just don't know how Cormier reacts to the cut, but at HW--particularly if the fight occurred now, for the reasons I've stated above--I'd go long money on Cormier all day.

    rh
  • 08-20-2012, 02:53 PM
    Kimbo> Rampage
    Quote Originally Posted by CtGreat View Post
    Lesnar didn't even attempt to set up his takedowns, he always just bull rushed people and relied on his massive size/strength advantage.

    I definitely think Jones would be able to hold his own against Cain wrestling wise.
    Not only that but Cain did all his damage in the standup, the wrestling was not a big factor in that fight, the are both very good wrestlers.

    Cain does have good standup. He has both speed and power, which is very rare with HW's. He is also pretty technically sound.

    I dont know how good it is though. He may have a hard time with someone of Jones's reach, we have also seen him get dazed a few times.

    Jones has fought guys like Shogun, Machida, Rampage, and Evans who are all good/dangerous strikers in their own way.

    Jones does a very good job at not getting hit and keeping his distance. We dont consider Jones to be a lethal striker just yet, but he will get there soon imo. He landed a nice right on Rampage and Machida, the dazed both of them.(of course that was after he landed his big elbow on the ground) and also got some nice shots in on Evans and Shogun.

    We will soon see Jones as a very dangerous striker, he keeps improving fight to fight. He has good speed and a huge reach. He shows glimpses of power from time to time. It is only a matter of time before he is able to produce power on a more consistent basis and find his mark with higher accuracy.

    I actually think he could be the first guy to finish Hendo. If he actually tries to KO Dan, he will. He a big reach advantage as well as speed advantage on Dan. Dan has slower footwork, will have trouble getting inside, and getting Jones down if he even gets that close. It will be a field day for Jon.

    But the most likey case if Jones drops him, is he will go to the ground with him and finish him with strikes or a submission. He could easily let him back up and get the legit KO if he wanted to.

    It will be interesting to see Jones at HW some day. He could be a force there. The only guys I would be ok with arguably favoring over Jones at HW are JDS, AO, and Cain.

    I dont see how people are quick to put Mir, Barnett, or Werdum over him. Their standup is solid, but nothing spectacular and are going to have tons of trouble trying to get him down.

    DC would be a good fight, because of his excellent wrestling, speed, and strength... But Jones would match his speed if not exceed it, as well as have a huge height/reach advantage. Even more so than his fights at LHW
  • 08-20-2012, 05:06 AM
    CtGreat
    Quote Originally Posted by noahm View Post
    Lesnar's wrestling didn't help deal with Cain. I don't see how JJ's would. Throwing around big boys is a whole different wrestling.
    Lesnar didn't even attempt to set up his takedowns, he always just bull rushed people and relied on his massive size/strength advantage.

    I definitely think Jones would be able to hold his own against Cain wrestling wise.
  • 08-20-2012, 03:14 AM
    noahm
    Quote Originally Posted by rampage9712 View Post
    Jones. He has the wrestling to deal with Cain, and even threaten taking Cain down himself.
    Lesnar's wrestling didn't help deal with Cain. I don't see how JJ's would. Throwing around big boys is a whole different wrestling.
  • 08-20-2012, 02:55 AM
    W.Silva>C.Norris
    I dont think Jones right now has the tools and skillset to be much more then a mid-high HW. I think there are a LOT of fighters north of 205 that would have a lot of success against Jones. I would say that if he were to stop cutting weight, and put on the 10 speculated pounds, he would be around the level of guys like frank mir. Good enough to stick around near the top, but definately a source of prey for guys like Cain, and JDS..

    Specifically, I think Cain wins in dominant fashion over Jones, as Cain is relentless. I dont see Cain getting caught up like rampage and rashaad, watching the Jon Jones show. I think Cain puts a steady pressure on him for the entire fight, and either wins via GNP stoppage, or UD
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