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[Grapplepit28]

[QUOTE=rivethead]Anderson Silva is stronger than Hughes.



"one thing that you may not realize is Matt is fighting guys smaller than him or his size. Even if he walks around at 185 and cuts to get to WW, you should realize Silva cuts from closer to 200. Franklin, who is clearly stronger than Hughes, was stunned by how strong Silva is. He mentioned that, and said he severely underestimated how strong he was.

Matt Hughes is strong, but he's not stronger than "anybody at 185." That's just being silly."


Actually, A Silva does not cut from 200 pounds. He is naturally 183-184 pounds. It has been well documented that he is one of very few fighters who does not cut weight before his fights.

Also, when I say Hughes is stronger than a lot of fighters, I'm not talking about how much they can bench press. I'm talking about actual 'Grip Strength' in grappling. This is something that's not affected by size and weight. Hughes grapples with guys who are 60-70 pounds heavier than he is and they are constantly amazed at how strong he is. Hughes really has not been outworked on the ground by anybody other than BJ penn in their first fight (and hughes later came back and pounded out penn in their 2nd fight) and he's been fighting very actively at the highest level for almost eight years now.

[TN94z]

Please don't compare a 40-year-old Gracie, who hadn't fought in the octagon in 10 years, and had never competed under the current UFC rules, to Silva, who is in his prime. Gracie is undisputably a legend, but I really think that fight was about money, and not much else.

I understand that dream matches inevitably boil down to MMA math, but to use Gracie to base your equation on how well Hughes would fare against a BJJ BB is faulty logic. Silva is stronger than Gracie, and stronger than Hughes. Gracie was always a purist, focusing on GJJ. Silva has some of the best striking we've seen in any weight class, and is an absolute phenom at MW.

You would be smarter to point out that Hughes has faced both great striking and great ground in BJ Penn. While Penn doesn't have Silva's KO power or his strength, and can't come close to his reach, BJ does have better TDD than Anderson. I also shouldn't have to point out that BJ owned Matt in their first fight, and was winning the first two rounds before he seperated his rib in the second.

If it does go to the ground, Marquardt is far stronger than Hughes [and is stronger than Silva] and Nate has as good GnP as Matt. So there's no guarantee there, either.

I think Matt has a chance, and I think it would be an interesting fight, but he'd literally need to catch lightning in a bottle for him to pull off a win. And it would be an upset.

rh

Who said that Gracie could strike with Silva??? Not me. I was referring to his BJJ counters on the ground. I am sure that even as old as Gracie is, Silva's BJJ is not on his level. I mean Silva's JJ has been questioned his entire career...many saying that he is not a true Black belt. Everyone wants to defend that with the Lutter fight, but why? I mean he got caught in an elementary arm bar (althought Lutter didn't get it locked), and he couldn't sinch the triangle when he had the perfect opportunity. Those are two of the basics. I would put Hughes' strength against Silva's any day. Franklin said that Silva was strong in the Clinch. Did you see the last fight? Almost every time Silva tried for the clinch, Franklin threw his arms off like he was nothing. I just don't think he is as strong as Hughes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Hughes is a better fighter because I don't think there are too many that are better than Silva right now. I just think that Hughes has a descent chance to beat him...assuming Hughes takes the fight seriously and doesn't try to stand with him.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by Grapplepit28

Actually, A Silva does not cut from 200 pounds. He is naturally 183-184 pounds. It has been well documented that he is one of very few fighters who does not cut weight before his fights.

Also, when I say Hughes is stronger than a lot of fighters, I'm not talking about how much they can bench press. I'm talking about actual 'Grip Strength' in grappling. This is something that's not affected by size and weight. Hughes grapples with guys who are 60-70 pounds heavier than he is and they are constantly amazed at how strong he is. Hughes really has not been outworked on the ground by anybody other than BJ penn in their first fight (and hughes later came back and pounded out penn in their 2nd fight) and he's been fighting very actively at the highest level for almost eight years now.

I've read where Silva walks around at 190 during training. I haven't read where he doesn't cut at all. I understand what you referred to as grip strength, it's what shocked Franklin so much in the first fight with Silva. Unquestionably Rich can bench more than Anderson, but he got owned in the clinch.

Just for the record...Hughes came back to "pound out" an injured Penn in their second fight. Matt was getting owned in the second fight as well, till BJ seperated the rib. I'm not taking anything away from Hughes, he's been a great champion, but if he fought Silva 10 times, he might win 2 of them.

Originally Posted by TN94z

Who said that Gracie could strike with Silva??? Not me. I was referring to his BJJ counters on the ground. I am sure that even as old as Gracie is, Silva's BJJ is not on his level. I mean Silva's JJ has been questioned his entire career...many saying that he is not a true Black belt. Everyone wants to defend that with the Lutter fight, but why? I mean he got caught in an elementary arm bar (althought Lutter didn't get it locked), and he couldn't sinch the triangle when he had the perfect opportunity. Those are two of the basics. I would put Hughes' strength against Silva's any day. Franklin said that Silva was strong in the Clinch. Did you see the last fight? Almost every time Silva tried for the clinch, Franklin threw his arms off like he was nothing. I just don't think he is as strong as Hughes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Hughes is a better fighter because I don't think there are too many that are better than Silva right now. I just think that Hughes has a descent chance to beat him...assuming Hughes takes the fight seriously and doesn't try to stand with him.

I didn't imply that Gracie's striking should be compared to Silvas. I did imply that Silva's BJJ should be favorably compared to Gracies...at Gracie's current level.

Again, Gracie is a legend, but he's well past his prime. I'm a huge Gracie fan, and I was deeply saddened that he even took the fight with Hughes. Royce was never well-rounded, and he dominated when rules were far more lax than they are today. Not only has he lost a step, the sport has passed him by. When he came out with every inch of the gi covered with sponsors, I got the feeling it was more about paying a mortgage than actually beating Hughes.

As far as questioning Silva's BJJ using the Lutter fight, I'd question the logic, as he'd just come off surgery in both knees. That would more than negatively effect the ability to cinch [not sinch] the triangle. And the fact that he "almost" got caught in an armbar means he's not a "real" BB? Did getting caught in the triangle invalidate Lutter's BJJ?

Again, it's just opinions, so we can agree to disagree, but if Hughes and Silva fought 10 times, Matt would be lucky to win twice.

You can question Silva's skill on the ground all you want. So did Nate Marquardt. Note the past tense.

rh

[Noob]

Originally Posted by TN94z

Franklin said that Silva was strong in the Clinch. Did you see the last fight? Almost every time Silva tried for the clinch, Franklin threw his arms off like he was nothing.

I don't think I was watching the same fight.


Franklin did a better job of staying out of the clinch in the second fight, but he didn't "throw [Silva] off like he was nothing." Far from it. He got beat, just not as mercilessly as in the first fight.


In fact, if I remember right, it was knees from the clinch that ended the fight.

[TN94z]

I didn't imply that Gracie's striking should be compared to Silvas. I did imply that Silva's BJJ should be favorably compared to Gracies...at Gracie's current level.

Again, Gracie is a legend, but he's well past his prime. I'm a huge Gracie fan, and I was deeply saddened that he even took the fight with Hughes. Royce was never well-rounded, and he dominated when rules were far more lax than they are today. Not only has he lost a step, the sport has passed him by. When he came out with every inch of the gi covered with sponsors, I got the feeling it was more about paying a mortgage than actually beating Hughes.

As far as questioning Silva's BJJ using the Lutter fight, I'd question the logic, as he'd just come off surgery in both knees. That would more than negatively effect the ability to cinch [not sinch] the triangle. And the fact that he "almost" got caught in an armbar means he's not a "real" BB? Did getting caught in the triangle invalidate Lutter's BJJ?

Again, it's just opinions, so we can agree to disagree, but if Hughes and Silva fought 10 times, Matt would be lucky to win twice.

You can question Silva's skill on the ground all you want. So did Nate Marquardt. Note the past tense.

rh

I still don't think Silva could beat Gracie in a grappling match. Knee surgery, knee surgery......if it was going to be a factor then he wouldn't have taken the fight. Enough with the knee surgery. So cinch or sinch.....is my intelligence being quesitoned now? I didn't say that getting caught in an arm bar doesn't make him a BB...I said that many people have questioned his BB status. A BJJ BB gets caught in submissions no doubt, but they should also be able to finish something as elementary as a triangle when you have it locked it like that. Its not that his knees wouldn't allow him to CINCH it, its that he obvioulsy didn't know that the arm must be pulled across the chest to finish off the move. If he would have pulled Lutter's arm across then the fight would have ended in submission....again, elementary for a BB?

[MasterShake]

Originally Posted by Noob

I don't think I was watching the same fight.


Franklin did a better job of staying out of the clinch in the second fight, but he didn't "throw [Silva] off like he was nothing." Far from it. He got beat, just not as mercilessly as in the first fight.


In fact, if I remember right, it was knees from the clinch that ended the fight.

Yah your right Noob Franklin did do better but was no where near throwing anything of Silva's of him like it was nothing. I just cant see Hughes having a chance, he is a great WW champ, but he would be destroyed by Silva, he is way to strong plus his reach he would pick Hughes apart. Then if Hughes ended up getting caught in the clinch it could be life threatning because Hughes is so much shorter.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by Noob

I don't think I was watching the same fight.


Franklin did a better job of staying out of the clinch in the second fight, but he didn't "throw [Silva] off like he was nothing." Far from it. He got beat, just not as mercilessly as in the first fight.


In fact, if I remember right, it was knees from the clinch that ended the fight.

He didn't throw Silva across the ring, but if he was so strong then Franklin wouldn't have been able to just throw his arms off like he did. He did get beat...beat very badly. I don't think he was in the "Clinch" per per say...the clinch happened after a few seconds of dirty boxing, holding the head with one hand and punch him in the face with other. That basically got him and that is when Silva got the clinch and knee'd him out. I could have held the clinch with Franklin in that state. Iif so, that was after he was knocked senseless in the first round. Franklin didn't have a clue the second round. Once again, don't get me wrong...I am a big Silva fan and think he is the best in the game right now. I am just making a case that Hughes has a chance.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by damienmasters

Yah your right Noob Franklin did do better but was no where near throwing anything of Silva's of him like it was nothing. I just cant see Hughes having a chance, he is a great WW champ, but he would be destroyed by Silva, he is way to strong plus his reach he would pick Hughes apart. Then if Hughes ended up getting caught in the clinch it could be life threatning because Hughes is so much shorter.

I would think that being shorter in the clinch would be an advantage? From what I saw in my Muay Thai classes it seemed to be an advantage. Silva is strong in the clinch, but overall he is not stronger than Hughes.

[TN94z]

Okay, I admit I was exaggerating on throwing him around like he was nothing, but until he got dazed, Silva couldn't hold the clinch on him. That is what I saw.

[MasterShake]

Originally Posted by TN94z

I would think that being shorter in the clinch would be an advantage? From what I saw in my Muay Thai classes it seemed to be an advantage. Silva is strong in the clinch, but overall he is not stronger than Hughes.

I would get a new teacher then, the taller person is going to inflict more damage when using knees it is leverage working against the smaller guy, the taller the person is the higher he cann throw knees, and the shorter the person is makes it the less distance for the knee to travel before it makes contact thereofore the more time it has to inflict damage on the follow thru. It simple physics man, Hughes would get destroyed in the clench, especially against someone that uses there knees as good as Silva anyways. Hughes is strong but I would wager that Silva is stronger.