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Originally Posted by Fishy

Shields doesn’t use his wrestling or his grappling skills effectively in MMA

Seriously? How does he win fights? He may not have finished "top competition," but saying that Shields doesn't use his wrestling or his grappling skills effectively in MMA is just you exhibiting your idiocy.

[fishy]

Originally Posted by TriangleChoke

Seriously? How does he win fights?

He wins fights by fighting C level fighters, since his 2006 fights against condit (which was a close fight and took more punishment) and Okami (which Okami should have won) he hasn't really fought anybody thats any real threat... in over 2 years he hasn't fought a top ten ranked fighter and is ranked at number 5 right now....that doesn't make any sense to me...

he doesn't use his grappling and wrestling effectively in mma
he telegraphs his takedowns instead of setting it up which makes it easy for his opponents to sprawl, he does however, uses his size and strength advantages very well by pinning his opponents to the cage or dragging them to the ground, like he did with the okami fight. in the sakurai fight he got swept quite a few times and gave up his back and the same thing happened in the kikuchi fight. He doesn't create any opening for submission using things that are allowed on the ground in mma like striking. He easily submits guys like paul daley, his only impressive sub was against the goat (ill give him that) but against guys like sakurai and kikuchi he was getting swept and gave up his back cuz he couldn't use his wrestling to his advantage, against guys like condit he took alot of punishment even on top, condit would start to use his striking even on the bottom when he couldnt catch a sub he was attempting which is what shields should be doing, in the okami fight he just pinned okami against fence and in the third round when okami managed to get on top he couldnt really do much but take damage..

[fishy]

I just wanna add, i dont like jake shields but i do think he's a good fighter, not a great fighter, im sure in time he will be better given he improves...no need for you to get all fired up about it cuz im sure there are fighters that you dont think are all they are cracked up to be..

[sandywh]

Why are you even popping off about Shields in the first place? Just because nearly every quality poster on this site called you an idiot in the Jake Shields interview thread.

Let it go.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by fishy

Kenflo is more well-versed than shields,

No he is not. Kenny has become an effective striker, but still hasn't beaten anyone who has solid striking skills. His wrestling is pitfull at best and his BJJ is good but certainly not world class like Shields is.

Shields is just as well rounded and more versed then Kenny, and that is a fact.

Originally Posted by fishy

he doesn’t possess the size and strength advantages over his opponents like shields does and finishes fights.

Kenny is a natural 155 pounder and Shields is a natural WW... there is no size advantage for Shields compared to Kenny. Infact Shields is only an inch taller then Kenny and fights a weight class above Kenny.

Originally Posted by fishy

The main components of MMA are the stand up, wrestling and groundgame, but there are also things like conditioning, speed, fighter intelligence, explosiveness etc that separate a top-tier fighter from the the rest.

every fighter posses different qualities and talents that help them win beisdes the experience and abilities, but if you are talking about the well-roundedness of an MMA fighters abilities it comes down to striking, wrestling, and grappling which include all of the qualities you mentioned in all three of those aspects.

Originally Posted by fishy

Shields doesn’t use his wrestling or his grappling skills effectively in MMA

This statement just further proves you blind-biasedness for Shields. You don't win 11 fights in a row for the past 3 and a half years with wrestling and grappling because you don't use them effectively.

It's frustrating to even here spout off such ignornace...

Originally Posted by fishy

Kenny is a fight finisher, he has that intelligence when fighting not to solely rely on his bjj skills when hes on the ground but will use his striking to his advantage to catch someone in a submission, not just holding his opponent down or holding his opponent against the fence when he fails to submit.

lol, I am starting to wonder if you got into MMA last month or something. So maintaining postioning and being paitent to execute a submission means that SHields isn't an intelligent fighter to play to his strengths? Great argument Fishy.

Originally Posted by fishy

I will even go as far as saying after seeing the stevenson fight that his wrestling as improved no doubt far better than shields striking has. Kenny’s transitions on the ground and feet, his explosiveness his ability to adapt to a given situation are qualities that shields does not currently possess.

How does getting takendown twice by someone who never even wrestled in college show that Kenny has improved his wrestling?

It sounds like all you have seen of Kenny is his fight over Stevenson with the way you are over-hyping him.

Originally Posted by fishy

kenny says that he will continue to improve as a fighter in all aspects of the game even during this lay off where he will wait to fight for the title, I don’t know if the same can be said about shields, he comes in looking the same every fight. P4P I dont think Shields compares to kenny

lol, who the hell has Florian ever beaten to put him a head of Shields p4p?

Kenny has improved because he needed to to be competitive. He can improve for the next 10 years and still not be as dangerous as Shields is today.

Originally Posted by fishy

In terms of well rounded fighters I can name you more.

We are talking about fighters that are dangerous in all three areas... all pro-MMA fighters are well rounded fighters to some extent or they wouldn't be fighting MMA.

Originally Posted by fishy

couture

Couture isn't dangerous with submissions

Originally Posted by fishy

Mir

Mir isn't dangerous with his wrestling

Originally Posted by fishy

Torres

Torres is pretty dangerous all around, but he still hasn't fought a world class opponent.

Originally Posted by fishy

sanchez

Sanchez is pretty dangerous in all three areas, but he couldn't win the 2 most imortant fights in his career.

Originally Posted by fishy

mousasi

Gegard isn't a dangerous wrestler.

Originally Posted by fishy

arlovski

AA isn't a dangerous wrestler

Originally Posted by fishy

hansen

Hansen is dangerous all the way around

Originally Posted by fishy

gabe gonzaga

Gonzaga isn't a dangerous wrestler

Originally Posted by fishy

Hendo

Henderson is far from dangerous or even well rounded with his BJJ.

Originally Posted by fishy

Machida

Machiad is dangerous all the way around.

Originally Posted by fishy

there are plenty more to name

you've only named two that are actually dangerous in all areas of MMA.

Originally Posted by fishy

there are certain areas that all these fighters can improve in but they're pretty solid all around and so to what Kenny was saying all the other things, like the mental game, conditioning etc are needed to make you more than just a well-rounded fighter

Where does he mention conditioning and the mental game again? Reading his quote all I can see is that he saying you need to be dangerous and a threat in all aspects of MMA.

I hate to make you look stupid again for talking out your ass again about Shields and now Florian, but you brought it upon yourself.

You are totally entitled to your opinion that you think Jake Shields is an over rated MMA fighter, but if you are going to go out of your way in a thread that has nothing to do with Shields and talk about things you no nothing about as a means to degrade what Shields has accomplished then don't be suprised when people who actually know what they are talkiing about shit all over you post.

Keep pretending you know how to fight and know what you are talking about... we love people who never learn anything and think they already know everything there is to know.

[fishy]

Originally Posted by Palma

No he is not. Kenny has become an effective striker, but still hasn't beaten anyone who has solid striking skills. His wrestling is pitfull at best and his BJJ is good but certainly not world class like Shields is.

Shields is just as well rounded and more versed then Kenny, and that is a fact.

who has shields submitted with exceptional grappling skills??

Originally Posted by Palma

Kenny is a natural 155 pounder and Shields is a natural WW... there is no size advantage for Shields compared to Kenny. Infact Shields is only an inch taller then Kenny and fights a weight class above Kenny.

go watch the fight with okami, he's just as as big if not bigger than him and okami is a mw

Originally Posted by Palma

every fighter posses different qualities and talents that help them win beisdes the experience and abilities, but if you are talking about the well-roundedness of an MMA fighters abilities it comes down to striking, wrestling, and grappling which include all of the qualities you mentioned in all three of those aspects.

This statement just further proves you blind-biasedness for Shields. You don't win 11 fights in a row for the past 3 and a half years with wrestling and grappling because you don't use them effectively.

It's frustrating to even here spout off such ignornace...

you can win 11 fights in a row if you fight cans, for example, sean sherk has over 30 fights and his only losses are to Hughes (greatest ww of all time) bj penn and gsp (both top 3 p4p fighters in the world) and he's still not considered to be a great fighter my many people including many posters on this site...

Originally Posted by Palma

lol, I am starting to wonder if you got into MMA last month or something. So maintaining postioning and being paitent to execute a submission means that SHields isn't an intelligent fighter to play to his strengths? Great argument Fishy.

no lay' n pray means you got nothing to offer and just holding your opponent down using his strength which is what he was pretty much doing in some fights just to take the round...

Originally Posted by Palma

How does getting takendown twice by someone who never even wrestled in college show that Kenny has improved his wrestling?

one of stevensons strengths is wrestling he might not be on shake shields level but its still one of his strengths, your right getting taken down twice doesnt mean hes improved but kenny taking him down by lifting him up and slamming him on his back easier than stevenson did to him does mean he has improved, what your trying to do now is discredit stevensons skills to prove your point which is not clever at all...

Originally Posted by Palma

It sounds like all you have seen of Kenny is his fight over Stevenson with the way you are over-hyping him.

i seen all of his fights....

Originally Posted by Palma

lol, who the hell has Florian ever beaten to put him a head of Shields p4p?

p4p as a fighter I think kenny florian is much better all around...

Originally Posted by Palma

Kenny has improved because he needed to to be competitive. He can improve for the next 10 years and still not be as dangerous as Shields is today.

great argument...

Originally Posted by Palma

I hate to make you look stupid again for talking out your ass again about Shields and now Florian, but you brought it upon yourself.

actually people have my posts from the shields thread from before on their sigs so i have to make a stand!

Originally Posted by Palma

You are totally entitled to your opinion that you think Jake Shields is an over rated MMA fighter, but if you are going to go out of your way in a thread that has nothing to do with Shields and talk about things you no nothing about as a means to degrade what Shields has accomplished then don't be suprised when people who actually know what they are talkiing about shit all over you post.

he's a good successful fighter no doubt, BUT what has shields accomplished? like I said, his accomplishments have been boasted...the guy is ranked number 5 and hasn't beat a ranked fighter in over two years, the last 2 ranked fighters he did beat were less than impressive (shouldnt have even won the okami fight) and since then he's been fighting c level fighters, and thats mainly why I think he's overhyped..i dont think you even have an argument for that...

Originally Posted by Palma

Keep pretending you know how to fight and know what you are talking about... we love people who never learn anything and think they already know everything there is to know.

I'm not trying to be a smartass or think i know more than anyone, I just call it like I see it, if anyone is biased its probably you, I can just ask you one question that will discredit your entire argument. Give me one legitimate reason why shields should even be ranked #5 as a ww?

oh yea and mike pyle agrees with me on this lol. and i think he's more knowledgeable about mma then everyone on this site so ill take his word over yours ...

[Palma]

Originally Posted by fishy

who has shields submitted with exceptional grappling skills??

This is totally besides the point (good job dodging the point btw) but he recently subbed Mike Pyle and Nick Thompson who both have excellent ground games. But here is where your ignorance fails you once again; having world class BJJ doesn't mean you are going to sub everyone... it means you are going to outclass fighters on the ground. BJJ is 10% submissions and 90% positioning... and he dominated Charuto and Conduit on the ground in both of those fights.

Originally Posted by fishy

go watch the fight with okami, he's just as as big if not bigger than him and okami is a mw

You have no facts to go by... just your biased opinion. Just like all your pathetic arguments against Shields.

Originally Posted by fishy

you can win 11 fights in a row if you fight cans, for example, sean sherk has over 30 fights and his only losses are to Hughes (greatest ww of all time) bj penn and gsp (both top 3 p4p fighters in the world) and he's still not considered to be a great fighter my many people including many posters on this site...

Okami, Pyle, Thomson, and Condit are cans? You are just sounding dumber with by the second.

Originally Posted by fishy

no lay' n pray means you got nothing to offer and just holding your opponent down using his strength which is what he was pretty much doing in some fights just to take the round...

Some rounds he lays and prays to win rounds and that makes him an unintelligent fighter?

You do know what your original point was don't you?

Originally Posted by fishy

one of stevensons strengths is wrestling he might not be on shake shields level but its still one of his strengths, your right getting taken down twice doesnt mean hes improved but kenny taking him down by lifting him up and slamming him on his back easier than stevenson did to him does mean he has improved,

What Kenny did was a body-lock which is used in MT and not wrestling... and we all know Kenny's MT is improving. Way to not know what the hell you are talking about once again.

Originally Posted by fishy

what your trying to do now is discredit stevensons skills to prove your point which is not clever at all...

I'm stating the truth. Stevenson's stength may be wrestling, but he is far from a great wrestler. I agree... stating the truth to someone who doesn't know their dick from their face isn't clever.

Originally Posted by fishy

i seen all of his fights....

Yet, all you can talk about is his fight against Stevenson.

Originally Posted by fishy

p4p as a fighter I think kenny florian is much better all around...

You think without reasoning... Kenny is good in two areas and bad in another... Shields is good in one area, great in another, and bad in the last.... sounds like Shields is better all around if you actually put some thought into it.

Originally Posted by fishy

great argument...

great retort.

Originally Posted by fishy

actually people have my posts from the shields thread from before on their sigs so i have to make a stand!

and give them more material for new sigs? Good job, maybe I will make a sig out of your bullshit. Here's a brand new gem:

Originally Posted by fishy

Shields doesn’t use his wrestling or his grappling skills effectively in MMA

Originally Posted by fishy

he's a good successful fighter no doubt, BUT what has shields accomplished?

Elite XC WW champ
beat 2 current top 10 WW's
beat 1 current top 5 MW
currently on an 11 fight win streak.
has finished his last 7 opponents (6 of them in the first round)

You are right... Jake Shields hasn't accomplished anything.

Originally Posted by fishy

his accomplishments have been boasted...the guy is ranked number 5 and hasn't beat a ranked fighter in over two years

And Florian has never beaten a ranked fighter yet somehow he is better p4p then Shields is.

Originally Posted by fishy

the last 2 ranked fighters he did beat were less than impressive

what was not impressive about beating Condit? It was a 3 round domination by Shields.

Originally Posted by fishy

(shouldnt have even won the okami fight)

But he did win, so how long are you going to keep crying about it?

Originally Posted by fishy

and since then he's been fighting c level fighters

And what has Kenny been fighting? B- level fighters? Anyone who steps into that cage is dangerous. Winning 11 pro-MMA fights in a row (even against unranked opponents) is an accomplishment in itself no matter who you are.

How does beating 11 fighters in a row (regardless of their percieved level from someone who doesn't know shit about fighting) mean that a fighter is over rated?

Originally Posted by fishy

thats mainly why I think he's overhyped..i dont think you even have an argument for that...

I do, but that's not the argument. If you just said Shields is over rated and left it that I wouldn't agree and I have an argument why I don't agree, but it isn't that big of a deal to me. But when you try to make up bullshit and have flawed biased opinions as means to bash one of the best fighters in the world then I'm going to point out how your shit stinks.

Originally Posted by fishy

I'm not trying to be a smartass or think i know more than anyone,

More like you are trying to be a dumbass.

Originally Posted by fishy

I just call it like I see it

Then you are fucking blind.

Originally Posted by fishy

if anyone is biased its probably you

Yes, I am making up bullshit for a fighter I don't even care for and am not even a fan of.

Originally Posted by fishy

I can just ask you one question that will discredit your entire argument. Give me one legitimate reason why shields should even be ranked #5 as a ww?

Here's 5 (again):

1. Elite XC WW champ
2. beat 2 current top 10 WW's
3. beat 1 current top 5 MW
4. currently on an 11 fight win streak.
5. has finished his last 7 opponents (6 of them in the first round)

There is never only one reason why a fighter is ranked in the top 5. Give me one reason why any top 5 fighter should be ranked where they are at.

Originally Posted by fishy

oh yea and mike pyle agrees with me on this lol. and i think he's more knowledgeable about mma then everyone on this site so ill take his word over yours ...

He is more knowledgeable about MMA then everyone here and he is also butthurt about getting destroyed by Shileds in the first round by a RNC.

Just because you found someone who is biased as well doesn't mean either of you are right.

And if Shields is overrated then what does that make Mike Pyle?

[NinjaShogunRua]

^Don't forget that Shields also won the ROTR WWGP that featured fighters such as Anderson Silva, Yushin Okami, Frank Trigg, Renato "Charuto" Verissimo, Carlos Condit and Dave Menne.

[Palma]

Originally Posted by NinjaShogunRua

^Don't forget that Shields also won the ROTR WWGP that featured fighters such as Anderson Silva, Yushin Okami, Frank Trigg, Renato "Charuto" Verissimo, Carlos Condit and Dave Menne.

those are all C level fighters.

[fishy]

dude, your arguments are very very weak but I dont blame you, you dont have much to work with...by your logic a fighter like sean sherk should be ranked right behind bj penn in the rankings cuz he has 33 wins with only 3 losses in his career which are only to the 3 of the top fighters in world..does that makes sense?

I'm gonna end this debate right here, we can argue back and forth non-stop I'm just gonna bite the bullet on this one, lets see how shields does in the future...i wont bring this shit up again....