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[Cat--Smasher]

Originally Posted by optimusjoel

Franklin has amazing sub defense.

According to UFC 2010 Undisputed that is!

[mma #1 fan]

Originally Posted by snakebite

This is kinda a fail thread not to be rude. Silva a brazillian national witha bjj blackbelt or leben?! Cmon bro silva's jitz is sick he just obviously chooses not to go that route. and nog and Franklin?! Lil nog?! Big nogs twin brother?! I think veryone in the world knows the answer to that question.

1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.
2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees
3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

[TapOut27]

In an mma fight BJJ isn't always used to set up a sub. Saying Lil Nogs BJJ is close to franklins is a little far fetched. Franklin is good on the ground, as gurgel has made him completely competent. But Nog is pretty sick with his BJJ. It's easier to defend at the top levels of the game than to attack and lose position. Shit, Mir was scared to death to go to the ground with big Nog in their fight, and alot of people think of Mir as a beast on te ground (I don't). And Wanderlei is a solid blackbelt, and uses it for defensive purposes only as he has said in many interviews. He knows what the Fuck to do but chooses to practice BJJ to get him back to his feet to KTFO of you.

[Sakara=Excitement]

Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

[LefthookStcrook]

Originally Posted by mma #1 fan

1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.

2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees

3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

Thank you! lol Its not as cut and dry as "Wandy has a Black belt, /thread"

Imo, People overate Silvas JJ because "he chooses to stand and bang"...Funny thing is, Lebens JJ is Underrated..and he chooses this very same gameplan lol.

Thats why I chose this perticular matchup. Im glad someone sees it clearly lol.

Originally Posted by TapOut27

It's easier to defend at the top levels of the game than to attack and lose position..

I just want to make sure I understand you right, but are you saying the reason Lil nog doesnt have no many subs...is because its easier to defend then attack?

Yes or no...At the end of the day, Rich Franklin has Attempted, Finished, and Escaped from more submission attempts then Lil nog. (Id bet, thats a fact, just too lazy to do all the lagwork lol)

And Wanderlei is a solid blackbelt, and uses it for defensive purposes only as he has said in many interviews. He knows what the Fuck to do but chooses to practice BJJ to get him back to his feet to KTFO of you

To me thats the beauty of the question.

-Both guys aim to stand and KO the other guy.
-One has a BJJ Blackbelt with 3submissions(really 1)
-The other doesnt have a BJJ Blackbelt, but has 6 submissions.

That equals an Automatic "Wandy hands down" response?

As I said above, At the end of the day Leben has Attempted and Finished more Sub attempts the Wandy..he hasnt escaped from as many as Wandy, to his credit.

Again, these matchups are alot closer then people are thinking.(imo)

I dont get how the fact of a BJJ blackbelt, somehow automatically trumps previous results and stats? lol. IF Leben got his BJJ blackbelt last year..would the response be an Automatic Leben lol?

[LefthookStcrook]

Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement

Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

Thank you! Another person who sees it clearly lol.

Wandy is my #2 all-time favourite fighter behind Chuck, So this isnt my attempt to bash him or anything. But I can still be a huge fan of a fighter and still admit their flaws....(*Cough*Pashak lol)

[dbader08]

Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement

Everyone is saying "OMFG GUYYZZZ, Silva is so mych better without a doubt!" and not backing any of that up.

In Wandys career, how has he shown he's a better JJ fighter? I fully understand the love for Wandy, I'm one of the many fans of his. But his "in-fight" BJJ isn't that great at all. Oh and J-Mac is one of the slickest MOFO's on the ground by the way.

By the way, Rashad Evans has a black belt too.

Saying Wandy's in fight bjj isn't that good at all isn't a very accurate statement imo. Wandy has always displayed solid BJJ. You pretty much never see Wanderlei in a disadvantageous position on the ground, and when he is, he retains guard pretty quickly. Bisping has a pretty good top game, and he had no success against Wandy when they went to the ground and was in a very tight guillotine at the end of one of the rounds in their fight, then the bell sounded. I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy. The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj.

His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters, but thats part of being a fighter, showing up in great shape for every fight. Wandy has a much better scrambling ability to due to his better conditioning, which is a large part of what bjj is. Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is. Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously.

[Sakara=Excitement]

Originally Posted by dbader08

Saying Wandy's in fight bjj isn't that good at all isn't a very accurate statement imo. Wandy has always displayed solid BJJ. You pretty much never see Wanderlei in a disadvantageous position on the ground, and when he is, he retains guard pretty quickly. Bisping has a pretty good top game, and he had no success against Wandy when they went to the ground and was in a very tight guillotine at the end of one of the rounds in their fight, then the bell sounded. I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy. The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj.

His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters, but thats part of being a fighter, showing up in great shape for every fight. Wandy has a much better scrambling ability to due to his better conditioning, which is a large part of what bjj is. Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is. Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously.

All good points.

Only point I would like to touch on is the Rosholt sub loss. Leben was coming off a long lay off and completely gassed in that fight.

But I agree that Wandy has solid defensive JJ but as far as offensively, I give the edge to Leben just from what I've seen in their fights. So I guess then it's a wash, lol.

Wandy crushes Leben's chin anyhow.

[braddahmatt]

Now first off... you cant say someones jiu jitsu is better or even comparable because they have submitted so and so number of fighters. Who are these fighters they are submitting? Fighters who have no idea what they are doing on the ground? Rich Franklin has never submitted a top fighter and only has one submission since being in the UFC.

and p.s. Ben Henderson shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Miller when it comes to jiu jitsu... I'd be pissed if I was Jim Miller

[TapOut27]

Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.