Originally Posted by dbader08
I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy.
Fair enough, I still think the Rosholt fight would go differently, and Jmac(imo) is probabley one of the top 5-7 JJ guys at MW(without thinking too hard about it lol)
But I guess I can agree with this, props for taking the time to actually post a reason, a good one at that.
The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj
Again, some good points. I still think its relativley
close though. Leben has 32 fights, been sub twice, fought some good grapplers in Pat Healy, Joe Doerkson, Edwin Dewees, Jason Mcdonald and Akiyama.
Now before anyone says
"They're not the calibur of JJ fighters that Arona or Sakuraba are!"...remember that we're talking about JJ in an MMA match. And maybe its just me, but im a stats and numbers type of guy when it comes to my sports. All
of those 5 fighters I mentioned have 50% or more
of their wins by submissions. And
out of those 5 fighters they have over 200 combined fights(211 actually), only 15
of them have ended by them getting submitted.
My point is, while they may have never held a UFC or Pride title, or had a crazy fan following, that doesnt make them any less of a threat in the JJ department
. Stats dont lie, those fighters that Leben fought maybe arn't the best grapplers in the game, but they're certaintly above avergage to good JJ practictioners.(imo of course)
His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters
Again dude im a HUGE Wandy fan, but I can admit Ive seen him "worn down" as you put it. I dont really feel like sifting through and re-watching a bunch of fights right now but im sure I could name a few fights where its late in the fight, and Wandy is just lumbering forward, hands low, swinging hooks...sounds alot like Leben tbh lol.
Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is
Again, ive seen both Wandy and Leben in bloody wars where(I think) they didnt have as much pep in the 3rd as they did in the 1st. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility
that Wandy/Leben have a fast paced epic 1st round, which leads to a bloody slower 2nd round, which leads to a 3rd round running on the bottom of the tank.
Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously |
Its called a discussion thread for a reason dude, we can talk about dreamatches that will never happen for pages, but I shouldnt start a discussion about who has better jj?
And if I do, and disagree with someone opinions, eventho I back it up I shouldnt be taken seriously?
Originally Posted by braddahmatt
Rich Franklin has never submitted a top fighter and only has one submission since being in the UFC.
and p.s. Ben Henderson shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Miller when it comes to jiu jitsu... I'd be pissed if I was Jim Miller
I didnt really want to get into every fighter that each fighter fought lol, more of who I thought was more comfortable going for submissions.
As far as Miller/Henderson. 8 out Henderson's 10 stoppages have been by submission(80%). Miller has 14 stoppages with 11 by subs(78.5%)......They "shouldnt be metioned in the same breath
"?..And your sure about that lol?
Originally Posted by TapOut27
Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.
Thank you! lol. Add in everything I mentioned in the paragraph above this and I say its worth a discussion ffs lol Henderson is a Brown belt under John Crouth. (who got his Blackbelt training from the man Royce himself.)
Miller is a Black belt under JamieCruz. Henderson has a slightly higher submission ratio....I think that classifies as "pretty close" myself.
Shit I had this convo with my buddy for like an hour the other day lol, try to bring it here and it gets shutdown like it makes no sense. I dont understand why, but its all good