MMA News Forums » MMA Forums » Noob Jack City

[LefthookStcrook]

Originally Posted by dbader08

I guarantee you Wandy wouldn't come close to being submitted by Rosholt or J-Mac, no matter how slick you think his bjj is. When Sakuraba was thought to be one of the best in the world on the ground at MW, he could do nothing at all on the ground against Wandy.

Fair enough, I still think the Rosholt fight would go differently, and Jmac(imo) is probabley one of the top 5-7 JJ guys at MW(without thinking too hard about it lol)

But I guess I can agree with this, props for taking the time to actually post a reason, a good one at that.

The fact that Wandy has never been subbed, alone, should tell you how good his bjj is, and he hasn't fought alot of guys with great bjj, but hes definitely fought some, like Ricardo Arona, (x2) and Sakuraba, (x3) and a host of other fighters with at least solid bjj

Again, some good points. I still think its relativley close though. Leben has 32 fights, been sub twice, fought some good grapplers in Pat Healy, Joe Doerkson, Edwin Dewees, Jason Mcdonald and Akiyama.

Now before anyone says"They're not the calibur of JJ fighters that Arona or Sakuraba are!"...remember that we're talking about JJ in an MMA match. And maybe its just me, but im a stats and numbers type of guy when it comes to my sports.

All of those 5 fighters I mentioned have 50% or more of their wins by submissions. And out of those 5 fighters they have over 200 combined fights(211 actually), only 15 of them have ended by them getting submitted.

My point is, while they may have never held a UFC or Pride title, or had a crazy fan following, that doesnt make them any less of a threat in the JJ department. Stats dont lie, those fighters that Leben fought maybe arn't the best grapplers in the game, but they're certaintly above avergage to good JJ practictioners.(imo of course)

His work ethic is definitely better than Lebens, which allows him to show up in great shape for every fight, which I'm sure constitutes to the fact that he's never been worn down and eventually subbed like you've seen happen to Leben and other fighters

Again dude im a HUGE Wandy fan, but I can admit Ive seen him "worn down" as you put it. I dont really feel like sifting through and re-watching a bunch of fights right now but im sure I could name a few fights where its late in the fight, and Wandy is just lumbering forward, hands low, swinging hooks...sounds alot like Leben tbh lol.

Throwing up a triangle against a worn and beaten down Akiyama doesn't mean he has great bjj, it just shows how good he did during the previous time in the fight. Of coarse it takes good bjj to due so, but I don't think he'd be able to pull that off if Akiyama wasn't already worn down, and, well, Akiyama hasn't exactly faced top comp his whole career, as tough as he is

Again, ive seen both Wandy and Leben in bloody wars where(I think) they didnt have as much pep in the 3rd as they did in the 1st. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility that Wandy/Leben have a fast paced epic 1st round, which leads to a bloody slower 2nd round, which leads to a 3rd round running on the bottom of the tank.

Four of Lebens subs are against complete nobodies anyways, so please don't say Wandy doesn't at least hold a slight edge in overall bjj and expect everyone to take you seriously

Its called a discussion thread for a reason dude, we can talk about dreamatches that will never happen for pages, but I shouldnt start a discussion about who has better jj?

And if I do, and disagree with someone opinions, eventho I back it up I shouldnt be taken seriously?

Originally Posted by braddahmatt

Rich Franklin has never submitted a top fighter and only has one submission since being in the UFC.

and p.s. Ben Henderson shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jim Miller when it comes to jiu jitsu... I'd be pissed if I was Jim Miller

I didnt really want to get into every fighter that each fighter fought lol, more of who I thought was more comfortable going for submissions.

As far as Miller/Henderson. 8 out Henderson's 10 stoppages have been by submission(80%). Miller has 14 stoppages with 11 by subs(78.5%)......They "shouldnt be metioned in the same breath"?..And your sure about that lol?

Originally Posted by TapOut27

Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.

Thank you! lol. Add in everything I mentioned in the paragraph above this and I say its worth a discussion ffs lol Henderson is a Brown belt under John Crouth. (who got his Blackbelt training from the man Royce himself.)

Miller is a Black belt under JamieCruz. Henderson has a slightly higher submission ratio....I think that classifies as "pretty close" myself.



Shit I had this convo with my buddy for like an hour the other day lol, try to bring it here and it gets shutdown like it makes no sense. I dont understand why, but its all good .

[TapOut27]

Also I must say that I don't think a person having more submission wins in MMA means they are better at BJJ.

[Mac]

The only close call on these would be GSP/Fitch and it would still go to GSP. The other 3 are obvious.

[dbader08]

Didn't mean to come off as a prick lefthook lol but to me I clearly believe Wandy holds a slight edge in the overall jiujitsu game. That last sentence was a bit uncalled for...but...BJJ is about much more than submissions, especially in an mma match. Alot of guys are more susceptible to being submitted after taking damage but Wandy isn't one of them imo.Even when we've seen Wandy tired, he's never been close to being submitted. He also never comes in as bad as Leben looked against Rosholt. Against Henderson in their 2nd fight he was slow, but as you probably know too, the word is he was pretty sick for that fight.

Out of all Edwin Dewees submissions, none of them are against anyone whos anywhere close to being a cop calibre opponent. Joe Doerkson is a very good bjj fighter but did they even go to the ground in their fight? I haven't seen it...
Chris Leben does have an unpredictable guard and its really pretty solid..but still...I just see Wandy having an advantage there. The punches he used against Akiyama to set up that triangle, I hope you know those would have no effect on Wandy lol

To be honest, though, lefthook, Ben Henderson is a machine. He is strong enough to power out of alot of shit, but as far as technique goes, Miller is better. Then again, I've seen Jacare power out of alot of shit in BJJ competetions, so its just part of the game I guess. I still think Millers is better, though. Being able to submit guys like Varner and Cerrone with guillotines is cool and all, but its just not going to be near that easy against the top guys at the weight class.

[braddahmatt]

Originally Posted by Lefthookstcrook

As far as Miller/Henderson. 8 out Henderson's 10 stoppages have been by submission(80%). Miller has 14 stoppages with 11 by subs(78.5%)......They "shouldnt be metioned in the same breath"?..And your sure about that lol?



Thank you! lol. Add in everything I mentioned in the paragraph above this and I say its worth a discussion ffs lol Henderson is a Brown belt under John Crouth. (who got his Blackbelt training from the man Royce himself.)

Miller is a Black belt under JamieCruz. Henderson has a slightly higher submission ratio....I think that classifies as "pretty close" myself.

Not trying to shut it down... but again, most of the people Ben has submitted have no business being on the ground at all except Cerrone who still isn't really that good on the ground but he is decent. Miller submitted Oliveira who has outstanding jiu jitsu.

Don't get me wrong... Ben Henderson has a good ground game but I think its more because of his strength over everyone in the lightweight and his wrestling ability. He's not very technical and gets caught a lot in some deep subs but just doesn't tap.

[initial_zen]

Originally Posted by mma #1 fan

1. Silva's really only sub'ed one guy in mma two of his subs were from strikes.
2. leben is the only guy to have sub'ed Akiyama and one of 4 to have sub'd Edwin (37 win's 30 by sub) Dewees
3. The two guys who have sub'ed Leben the ground is their world both have way more sub win's than any thing else on there stats.

So on paper Silva's Black belt sure looks nice but at the end of the day all it can
do is hold up his pants.

i dont think silva has ever been subbed has he? He may not sub people but thats because he uses his bjj usually strictly for defensive purposes and to get back to his feet, much like how chuck used his good wrestling to keep it standing. And silva is a legit black belt, its not just a bs one. Here's a vid of him training with vitor vianna who is pretty decorated in bjj and he holds his own... in a gi.

YouTube - ‪Wand vs Vitor Vianna‬‏

[trustkill]

Originally Posted by TapOut27

Umm Ben henderson should be mentioned in the same breathe he just took bronze in the worlds at his weight division which IS impressive.

The Ben Henderson vs Jim Miller discussion interests me the most. I was MOST impressed with Henderson's performance during the Bocek fight, but I think that Miller's boxing will be the difference. I'm no jits expert, so I'm waiting for this to play out in the octagon, but it's a question I've asked myself, nonetheless. I'm hoping to see lots of scrambles with these two.