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Thread: Anderson Silva Would Move to Welterweight to Challenge Georges St-Pierre

  1. #131
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    gohan could've beat buu one on one had it not been for chi chi making him fucking study all the damn time. what a waste of potential.
    lemme touch your feet

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    I watched the ghostbusters & tmnt cartoons growing up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H0SS View Post
    Look, I'm not going to flame you, because I honestly think you just don't know any better. It is damn near impossible to clear out a division. But even if you are able to clear a division out, in no time at all, it would have filled up again.

    ALSO, your logic stating that "he has cleared out the MW division, which to me makes it OK for him to seek challenges outside of his division" has a small flaw. Shouldn't the other champions have cleared out their own divisions before accepting said superfight?

    Possible contenders in GSP's immediate future are Hendricks and Maia.
    Possible contenders in Jones' immediate future are Hendo/Machida winner and the Mousasi/Gustafsson winner.

    And you think in all that time, Anderson's division won't have more established contenders emerging? Weidman is up on deck, Lombard is starting to re-state his case, and Vitor has clawed his way back to the top of that contender's list as well.

    That's why the "cleared out division" argument is just plain stupid.



    You just don't think I know any better. First, just because I don't throw insults around in my posts doesn't make them weak, or doesn't mean I'm not assertive about what I'm saying.

    Second, on my post I made it pretty clear, if you don't believe that clearing out a division is possible, just say so. But instead of just saying that, I'm getting more crap about, it can be done, but its really hard, like almost impossible and its never happened, oh and it will never happen.

    Third, several times I have heard many of you say that Weidman should be the next getting the shot because really he is the last man standing, the only contender that didn't lose his last fight. So that to me makes it sound like the division is pretty well cleared, when a guy is getting a shot due to lack of options.

    Fourth, someone else mentioned, name another sport where someone doesn't defend a title. Off the top of my head I can't think of too many sports where a title is defended, none of the major sports at least, soccer, basketball, baseball, football, hockey and the list goes on. In all of those sports you fight for a new title every year. Plus this is something that is pretty unique to combat sports and I don't know why we shouldn't embrace it.

    Again I will bring up the Petis point. A lot of people seemed ok with the idea of Petis taking Aldo's belt and then immediately fighting Ben. Not saying you were one of those people, but I didn't see anyone on that thread claiming that idea to be outrageous. Now after 7 years being undefeated in the MW division, Silva states that he is willing to DROP to 170 and this thread turns into a hating Silva session with claims he is dodging an up and comer.

    PS the point that if Silva should fight a super fight it should be JBJ, is just not a very good one. GSP and AS are in closer weight classes, they are the number 1 and 2 in the p4p list and have been for a very long time. Also, if he is to fight them both, it makes a lot more sense for him to start with GSP.
    Last edited by Bork_Lazer; 02-18-2013 at 04:21 PM.

  4. #134
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    I hear a lot about high risk low reward fights when people talk about Silva. His last fight was against Bonnar, can someone explain to me how that was not high risk low reward, please. Sure, people are going to jump on here and say Bonnar wasn't training for the fght, but neither was Silva. Bonnar is not that good, well Bonnar gave JBJ one of his toughest fights yet. Bonnar had never been finished (except for an accidental cut I believe). Bonnar is a massive LHW. Losing to Bonnar in my eyes would be way more detrimental to AS than losing to Wiedman. If Silva loses to Wiedman he gets a rematch. But losing to Bonnar just looks really bad. Oh, and Bonnar was not a big draw either. So how was that not a high risk low reward fight for Silva.

    OH, it must be because it was a really easy fight....

    Someone above said:
    (FFRPICKUP I believe)
    I would love to see AS fight contenders at 205...not the bonnars or griffins

    correct me if I am wrong but hadn't Forrest just recently lost his title when Silva fought him?


  5. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer View Post
    You just don't think I know any better. First, just because I don't throw insults around in my posts doesn't make them weak, or doesn't mean I'm not assertive about what I'm saying.
    I commend you for not throwing insults.

    Second, on my post I made it pretty clear, if you don't believe that clearing out a division is possible, just say so. But instead of just saying that, I'm getting more crap about, it can be done, but its really hard, like almost impossible and its never happened, oh and it will never happened.
    I think its pretty possible, particularly one that doesn't have a lot of depth.
    I've said repeatedly that if Anderson defends just three times in the next two years--which is a fairly light schedule, statistically--he'd probably have come as close to it as anyone, and for the second time.

    Third, several times I have heard many of you say that Weidman should be the next getting the shot because really he is the last man standing, the only contender that didn't lose his last fight. So that to me makes it sound like the division is pretty well cleared, when a guy is getting a shot due to lack of options.
    This is a bit of a misinterpretation, and a misapplication of logic.
    I've thought Weidman was a great candidate for a shot once he destroyed Munoz. If you go back objectively, Munoz was universally ranked top 5 and would have gotten a title shot with a win over Weidman. And Chris simply crushed him, for his 5th win in a row in the UFC, and his second top 10 in a row. Factor in that Weidman is undefeated, and that the only win he's had for zuffa that went to a decision was against Maia, in a fight he took on 10 days notice, and he's a great contender. At that point--with the obvious exception of Anderson himself--Chris had two potential MWs that could even be said to be close to him: Boetsch and Rockhold. At the time, Rockhold was still in SF, and Boetsch had a big come-from-behind win against Okami, and eked out a decision against an untested Lombard. People were making a case for Bisping, with just one win against a top 10 fighter, but that failed.

    I'd say Chris was always a frontrunner--he was announced as the #1 contender on fight night--and that circumstances have simply reinforced that status.

    But you can't really say a division is even close to being cleared out with one solid contender in the mix. All PPV sales aside, Anderson/Weidman is a great fight. Stylistically, it looks like fireworks. If Anderson can be said to have a weakness, it's grappling, and Chris is a great grappler. Far from being a human blanket like sonnen, Chris actually has very good submissions and a deadly ground and pound. But he's untested, and nobody knows how he'll react to the pressure of fighting Anderson, never mind the actual striking threat Silva represents.

    I actually wish zuffa would simply match the figure of the PPV cut Anderson received for fighting sonnen. I know the sales won't come even remotely close, but Anderson has done a lot for the brand, and zuffa could certainly weather the hit. If money is the real hangup with Anderson's camp, it's not like that's something that can't be resolved.

    Fourth, someone else mentioned, name another sport where someone doesn't defend a title. Off the top of my head I can't think of too many sports where a title is defended, none of the major sports at least, soccer, basketball, baseball, football, hockey and the list goes on. In all of those sports you fight for a new title every year.
    I've never seen an analogy comparing combat sports to major league team sports that even remotely fits, and this is no exception.

    Plus this is something that is pretty unique to combat sports and I don't know why we shouldn't embrace it.
    I wouldn't dismiss it as diva indulgence if Anderson was defending at a routine clip. If he's not defending by July, it will be a full year since a title defense, and he's not injured. That would be just 4 title defenses over three years, not great record, particularly if he's healthy, with fighters in the wings.

    Again I will bring up the Petis point. A lot of people seemed ok with the idea of Petis taking Aldo's belt and then immediately fighting Ben. Not saying you were one of those people, but I didn't see anyone on that thread claiming that idea to be outrageous.
    No, that idea is outrageous. But it will sell, and dana likes things that will sell.

    But [other than misspelling Pettis] I still have a few issues with your comparison:
    You can't compare the actions of a contender to the actions of a champion. Champions are held to the very highest standards of the sport, by the nature of their position.
    Pettis wouldn't be effectively holding a title hostage and not defending it. Even if you could compare a contender's decisions and a champs, it would still be apples and oranges.
    Pettis isn't sitting out for a year between bouts while he's healthy. He's looking to fight more frequently, rather than less frequently.

    Look at it this way: Belfort removed a big-money Bisping fight from the picture a month ago. Lets pretend that month didn't get wasted. If Anderson said "Kid, bring me this Chris Woodman character at the end of April. I'm going to beat him, then I'm gonna drop down to WW and face Georges in November. Then I'll defend at MW again next April." that would be weird, and still be something that's never happened in MMA.

    But it wouldn't be an interminable drag on the title defense schedule. It would be like Anderson is fighting Georges on his own time. I still think it's pointless, but I wouldn't be as dead set against it.

    I just want belts defended on a reasonable schedule. I do not find a year or more between defenses to be reasonable, particularly when the champ is healthy. If he's pursuing vanity fights, I find it reprehensible. That's not just about Anderson, I'd hate it if any champ did it.

    Now after 7 years being undefeated in the MW division, Silva states that he is willing to DROP to 170 and this thread turns into a hating Silva session with claims he is dodging an up and comer.
    the fact that Anderson [the champion] has literally stated he has no intention of facing Weidman [the #1 contender for the last 8 months] opened that door. It was a stupid thing to say, and what's more important, he's done nothing to try to change public opinion in the intervening time.

    Granted, he'll probably fight Weidman. But even if he does, the perception can be supported that he was unwillingly forced to do so. That's not a great thing to be able to say about any champion, never mind one of Anderson's status.


    I'll say it again...wouldn't it be awesome if Anderson simply said "bring it. I've fought guys like him throughout my career. He's never seen anything like me." And simply went about his business.

    He's got the skills to do that, doesn't he? More than enough, in my opinion.

    PS the point that if Silva should fight a super fight it should be JBJ, is just not a very good one. GSP and AS are in closer weight classes, they are the number 1 and 2 in the p4p list and have been for a very long time. Also, if he is to fight them both, it makes a lot more sense for him to start with GSP.
    A win over a smaller fighter does absolutely nothing to enhance someone's pound-for-pound status. When two fighters are equal in skill--and Anderson is actually most often said to be more skilled than Georges--the bigger fighter is supposed to win.

    Again, would it be a greater accomplishment for Anderson's career to:

    A) chase a fight with an unwilling, smaller fighter, and then beat him;

    or

    B) chase a fight with a dominant champion in a heavier weight class, overcome incredible size disadvantages and beat him.

    That's a very simple question. I think it's got a very simple answer.

    rh
    Last edited by rivethead; 02-18-2013 at 05:12 PM.
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

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    wait....did you just say Genki Sudo unretired?

  6. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I commend you for not throwing insults.


    I think its pretty possible, particularly one that doesn't have a lot of depth.
    I've said repeatedly that if Anderson defends just three times in the next two years--which is a fairly light schedule, statistically--he'd probably have come as close to it as anyone, and for the second time.


    This is a bit of a misinterpretation, and a misapplication of logic.
    I've thought Weidman was a great candidate for a shot once he destroyed Munoz. If you go back objectively, Munoz was universally ranked top 5 and would have gotten a title shot with a win over Weidman. And Chris simply crushed him, for his 5th win in a row in the UFC, and his second top 10 in a row. Factor in that Weidman is undefeated, and that the only win he's had for zuffa that went to a decision was against Maia, in a fight he took on 10 days notice, and he's a great contender. At that point--with the obvious exception of Anderson himself--Chris had two potential MWs that could even be said to be close to him: Boetsch and Rockhold. At the time, Rockhold was still in SF, and Boetsch had a big come-from-behind win against Okami, and eked out a decision against an untested Lombard. People were making a case for Bisping, with just one win against a top 10 fighter, but that failed.

    I'd say Chris was always a frontrunner--he was announced as the #1 contender on fight night--and that circumstances have simply reinforced that status.

    But you can't really say a division is even close to being cleared out with one solid contender in the mix. All PPV sales aside, Anderson/Weidman is a great fight. Stylistically, it looks like fireworks. If Anderson can be said to have a weakness, it's grappling, and Chris is a great grappler. Far from being a human blanket like sonnen, Chris actually has very good submissions and a deadly ground and pound. But he's untested, and nobody knows how he'll react to the pressure of fighting Anderson, never mind the actual striking threat Silva represents.

    I actually wish zuffa would simply match the figure of the PPV cut Anderson received for fighting sonnen. I know the sales won't come even remotely close, but Anderson has done a lot for the brand, and zuffa could certainly weather the hit. If money is the real hangup with Anderson's camp, it's not like that's something that can't be resolved.


    I've never seen an analogy comparing combat sports to major league team sports that even remotely fits, and this is no exception.


    I wouldn't dismiss it as diva indulgence if Anderson was defending at a routine clip. If he's not defending by July, it will be a full year since a title defense, and he's not injured. That would be just 4 title defenses over three years, not great record, particularly if he's healthy, with fighters in the wings.


    No, that idea is outrageous. But it will sell, and dana likes things that will sell.

    But [other than misspelling Pettis] I still have a few issues with your comparison:
    You can't compare the actions of a contender to the actions of a champion. Champions are held to the very highest standards of the sport, by the nature of their position.
    Pettis wouldn't be effectively holding a title hostage and not defending it. Even if you could compare a contender's decisions and a champs, it would still be apples and oranges.
    Pettis isn't sitting out for a year between bouts while he's healthy. He's looking to fight more frequently, rather than less frequently.

    Look at it this way: Belfort removed a big-money Bisping fight from the picture a month ago. Lets pretend that month didn't get wasted. If Anderson said "Kid, bring me this Chris Woodman character at the end of April. I'm going to beat him, then I'm gonna drop down to WW and face Georges in November. Then I'll defend at MW again next April." that would be weird, and still be something that's never happened in MMA.

    But it wouldn't be an interminable drag on the title defense schedule. It would be like Anderson is fighting Georges on his own time. I still think it's pointless, but I wouldn't be as dead set against it.

    I just want belts defended on a reasonable schedule. I do not find a year or more between defenses to be reasonable, particularly when the champ is healthy. If he's pursuing vanity fights, I find it reprehensible. That's not just about Anderson, I'd hate it if any champ did it.


    the fact that Anderson [the champion] has literally stated he has no intention of facing Weidman [the #1 contender for the last 8 months] opened that door. It was a stupid thing to say, and what's more important, he's done nothing to try to change public opinion in the intervening time.

    Granted, he'll probably fight Weidman. But even if he does, the perception can be supported that he was unwillingly forced to do so. That's not a great thing to be able to say about any champion, never mind one of Anderson's status.


    I'll say it again...wouldn't it be awesome if Anderson simply said "bring it. I've fought guys like him throughout my career. He's never seen anything like me." And simply went about his business.

    He's got the skills to do that, doesn't he? More than enough, in my opinion.


    A win over a smaller fighter does absolutely nothing to enhance someone's pound-for-pound status. When two fighters are equal in skill--and Anderson is actually most often said to be more skilled than Georges--the bigger fighter is supposed to win.

    Again, would it be a greater accomplishment for Anderson's career to:

    A) chase a fight with an unwilling, smaller fighter, and then beat him;

    or

    B) chase a fight with a dominant champion in a heavier weight class, overcome incredible size disadvantages and beat him.

    That's a very simple question. I think it's got a very simple answer.

    rh

    I appreciate the rebuttal. We will never agree as we have some core differences in our beliefs.

    1) I see Silva as a guy who seeks challenges. The way I see it, Cutting weight to fight GSP is infinitely more challenging then fighting Weidman. Forget the title, his job description his obligation as champ just for a second, I cannot imagine Weidman being more of a challenge then GSP (At a 170 lb fight).

    2) You say Weidman has a 3/10 shot at beating Silva. I have no reason to see it that way. For me it's a .1/10. I have no reason to see that fight going any different then the Okami fight. So as a fan I would much rather watch him fight GSP. A fight which could prove GSP to be the All Time Great. Also, I understand your point of Silva being bigger and therefore he should win. But the real question here would be can Silva embarrass GSP. Can he do to GSP what he did to Forrest Griffin? If he can, that speaks volumes, as size shouldn't make that huge of an impact on the fight.

    3) "A win over a smaller fighter does absolutely nothing to enhance someone's pound-for-pound status." Really, because I think GSP beating Penn is a big mark in his career. I don't think people look at that fight and say it meant nothing.

    4) On the Pettis matter. "You can't compare the actions of a contender to the actions of a champion." You do realize that if Pettis beat Aldo he would be a champion right. So I am comparing a champion to a champion. Also... not sure where you stand on it. Is it ok for Pettis to win the title at FW and then call out Ben? If you are saying its ok, then that makes me very confused. As to how it applies to your strong beliefs on the purity of the sport. You are talking perfect scenario here. But lets face it. Pettis wins the FW belt, fights Ben, gets injured and lays out for a year. Very possible, and now we have a guy like Aldo not being able to get his very deserved immediate rematch.

    Are you a politician? I really love your phrasing at the end:

    A) chase a fight with an unwilling, smaller fighter, and then beat him;

    or

    B) chase a fight with a dominant champion in a heavier weight class

    GSP = Unwilling smaller fighter
    JBJ = Dominant Champion

    That's really good. The way you phrased it, perfect!

  7. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bork_Lazer View Post
    1) I see Silva as a guy who seeks challenges. The way I see it, Cutting weight to fight GSP is infinitely more challenging then fighting Weidman. Forget the title, his job description his obligation as champ just for a second, I cannot imagine Weidman being more of a challenge then GSP (At a 170 lb fight).
    Unless he's vacating the title, it's not something that should be forgotten.

    I can't predict who is a more challenging fight. I can say without a doubt that facing a ranked MW--like Weidman, but not necessarily Weidman--is the core of his job description.

    2) You say Weidman has a 3/10 shot at beating Silva. I have no reason to see it that way. For me it's a .1/10. I have no reason to see that fight going any different then the Okami fight. So as a fan I would much rather watch him fight GSP. A fight which could prove GSP to be the All Time Great. Also, I understand your point of Silva being bigger and therefore he should win.
    You're welcome to your perception, although I find it amusing. I'd rather see a MW defense than a vanity fight. Even if the defense as hellishly locked down as you feel, any of the contenders in the mix would be good, entertaining fights.

    But the real question here would be can Silva embarrass GSP. Can he do to GSP what he did to Forrest Griffin? If he can, that speaks volumes, as size shouldn't make that huge of an impact on the fight.
    Size will absolutely play a role in that fight, as it did in the GSP/Penn fight.

    3) "A win over a smaller fighter does absolutely nothing to enhance someone's pound-for-pound status." Really, because I think GSP beating Penn is a big mark in his career. I don't think people look at that fight and say it meant nothing.
    It was a great mark in Georges' career, because he silenced a long-standing and vocal detractor. But it didn't do anything for his P4p status. He was already considered ahead of Penn when he fought him.

    You're also missing that Penn was the aggressor in pursuing that fight. The smaller fighter was calling out the bigger fighter, not the other way around...and that Penn was a previous champion in Georges' weight class.

    4) On the Pettis matter. "You can't compare the actions of a contender to the actions of a champion." You do realize that if Pettis beat Aldo he would be a champion right. So I am comparing a champion to a champion. Also... not sure where you stand on it. Is it ok for Pettis to win the title at FW and then call out Ben? If you are saying its ok, then that makes me very confused. As to how it applies to your strong beliefs on the purity of the sport. You are talking perfect scenario here. But lets face it. Pettis wins the FW belt, fights Ben, gets injured and lays out for a year. Very possible, and now we have a guy like Aldo not being able to get his very deserved immediate rematch.
    Pettis is a potential champion. Not a champion. He can try to angle for all the fights and whatever that he wants, but it's still not the same as someone who is already an established champ doing it--particularly someone who is as established and dominant as Anderson.

    The potentialities are limitless, and I don't even want to bother with them. I do not like the idea of a champ holding the belt in two weight classes at the same time, unless they're going to fight 3 times a year. Henderson sucked at it in PRIDE, I see no reason that Pettis or Anderson would be better than him...so I choose not to worry about shit that hasn't happened and may not.

    Are you a politician? I really love your phrasing at the end:

    A) chase a fight with an unwilling, smaller fighter, and then beat him;

    or

    B) chase a fight with a dominant champion in a heavier weight class

    GSP = Unwilling smaller fighter
    JBJ = Dominant Champion

    That's really good. The way you phrased it, perfect!
    OK, so answer the question.

    Is it a bigger deal for Anderson to beat Georges, or to beat Jones. Which win would do more to cement his legacy?

    It's still a simple question.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

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    wait....did you just say Genki Sudo unretired?

  8. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    OK, so answer the question.

    Is it a bigger deal for Anderson to beat Georges, or to beat Jones. Which win would do more to cement his legacy?

    It's still a simple question.

    rh
    It is a simple question, but not easy to answer.

    I do think that Jones is the tougher fight, he is a massive LHW and his top game is much more aggressive then GSPs. So I agree that Jones is a tougher fight and I absolutely want to see this fight.

    Now, in terms of cementing his legacy, that's where it gets a little tricky. Silva and GSP have been riding spots 1 and 2 for a very long time. Also, time and time again they have proved that they are nearly untouchable in their weight classes. So due to their history I think that in terms of legacy, currently this fight holds more weight. I think once Jones gets maybe 2 more title defenses under his belt that fight would be more meaningful for Silva. Again if the Silva-Jones fight happened tomorrow it would be huge and very important for his legacy, but I think right now the GSP fight holds more weight in terms of legacy.

    Jones is a beast and extremely dominant. In no way am I hating on Jones here, but he got caught by a big right hand by both Machida and Evans also almost got submitted by Vitor. That is the only reason I want to see him defend his belt one more time after Sonnen before the Silva fight takes place.

  9. #140

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    I catagorically disagree with that assessment.

    The concept of p4p was literally established to discuss skillsets independent of relative size advantages, and using pure skill to overcome someone with Jones' length would do more to actually cement Silva's p4p status than anything he's ever done in his career.

    But again, you're welcome to your opinion, I expected as much.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    wait....did you just say Genki Sudo unretired?

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